Holy Communion: Special circumstance--am Lutheran [edited]

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I am not riding a “high horse”, and it is very unchristian of you to make this accusation.

Again, I ask you for documentation of your interpretation before I will reject the interpretation given by a priest whose credentials I can verify.

And I hope you never become a hospital chaplain in my area.

Peace,

Lux

 

[Cristiano]

…And I hope you never become a hospital chaplain in my area.

Peace,

Lux

Thank you for sharing such Christian thoughts.

 

[FrDavid96]

[edited]

While it is never legitimate to concelebrate in the absence of full communion, the same is not true with respect to the administration of the Eucharist under special circumstances, to individual persons belonging to Churches or Ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church. In this case, in fact, the intention is to meet a grave spiritual need for the eternal salvation of an individual believer, not to bring about an intercommunion which remains impossible until the visible bonds of ecclesial communion are fully reestablished.

These conditions, from which no dispensation can be given, must be carefully respected, even though they deal with specific individual cases, because the denial of one or more truths of the faith regarding these sacraments and, among these, the truth regarding the need of the ministerial priesthood for their validity, renders the person asking improperly disposed to legitimately receiving them. And the opposite is also true: Catholics may not receive communion in those communities which lack a valid sacrament of Orders

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Fr David,

Please tell me where any of my posts indicated that I interpreted any canon law to “bring about an intercommunion”. This person is away from any connection to his religion, and has expressesd a grave need, and belief in the Real Presence. I just quoted the law which said it is up to the Bishop, and suggested he ask the Pastor to help him get in touch with the Bishop.

Lux

 

[JCnMe]

…I was at a birthday party for a dear older family friend who is not Catholic-this was an open house in the community room of her church- the minister was there and gave her communion for her birthday and invited everyone to partake as well- seeing what is offered-little squares of regular bread and a thimblefull of grape juice- it would be very difficult for any Catholic to see that as the same as the sacrament of communion…or want to …on the other hand I think under grievous circumstances a Priest would be remiss in his duty to God if he didn’t see to the needs of the desperate-how or even if that pertains to the situation here-remains to be seen by the Bishop in charge…I hope ((Macaroon))) will still seek an answer after all this and let us all know how it worked out…

 

[PJM]

I am a Lutheran, currently living in India on a field assignment for my company. I have been here for almost six months, during this time I have not been able to receive the Holy Communion, for obvious reasons. However, I live in Chennai, in Santhome, only 100 meters from St. Thomas Basilica.

As a Lutheran, I believe the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ. Is it acceptable for me to take Holy Communion at Saint Thomas?

I realize the standard answer is “no”. However, even though we have similar rules in the Lutheran Church, our pastor told me he would never refuse the Sacrament to one who had faith. May I expect similar treatment?

Please advise.

My dear friend in Christ Jesus,

I’ll pray for you!

The answer to your querry is and has to be “No” as you suspect.

Their is a very valid reason for this position.

Catholic Holy Communion is a gift from God, of God to God.

It is “Really Jesus” not a sign, not a symbol, Really. Truly and Substanually Present: Body, Blood. Soul and Divinity. (Read John 6: 40-60)

It is The God the Father, Offering His Son Jesus, who too is God, and Through the Holy Spirit (also God) using as instraments for the miracle, his Catholic Bishops and Priest. **They are but conduits of God, it is God Himself performing this Transfiguration, **of what appears to remain only bread, and only wine, into the reality of the GLORIFIED Body and GLORIFIED Blood of Jesus.

By vitrue of our Lords specific COMMAND: “Do this in memory” of Me," only through direct Apolostolic Succession, is one so empowered. Luke 22:" 17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” **19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” (Picture) 20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. **”

All four Synopic Gospels and also St. Paul attest to this.

Friend, you are welcome, warmly imvited to attend Holy Mass, but please, only informed, practcing Catholics without Mortal sin, can and should present themselves for Holy Communion.

Perhaps you will find this sufficient motivation to consider becomming a Catholic. many others have, and many have left the Church, because thay lacked such an understanding.

Love, peace, joy and prayers, God Bless you!

 

[Tetiaroa]

I am a Lutheran, currently living in India on a field assignment for my company. I have been here for almost six months, during this time I have not been able to receive the Holy Communion, for obvious reasons. However, I live in Chennai, in Santhome, only 100 meters from St. Thomas Basilica.

As a Lutheran, I believe the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ. Is it acceptable for me to take Holy Communion at Saint Thomas?

I realize the standard answer is “no”. However, even though we have similar rules in the Lutheran Church, our pastor told me he would never refuse the Sacrament to one who had faith. May I expect similar treatment?

Please advise.

I maybe wrong here and please anyone correct me if I am. I thought Lutherans are excommunicated from the Church. Isn’t this correct anyone. If this is so, how should a Lutheran be granted permission to receive Holy Communion from the Church? It was stated clearly in the canon law that Lutheran is not in the list of those allowable denominations.

Tet

 

[Pro_Domina]

I am a Lutheran, currently living in India on a field assignment for my company. I have been here for almost six months, during this time I have not been able to receive the Holy Communion, for obvious reasons. However, I live in Chennai, in Santhome, only 100 meters from St. Thomas Basilica.

As a Lutheran, I believe the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ. Is it acceptable for me to take Holy Communion at Saint Thomas?

I realize the standard answer is “no”. However, even though we have similar rules in the Lutheran Church, our pastor told me he would never refuse the Sacrament to one who had faith. May I expect similar treatment?

Please advise.

I am glad to here you believe in the Holy Eucharist.
But since this is of the greatest steps, then let us consider the logical conclusions you should arrive to.

The Eucharist was instituted by Christ, and then instituted bishops and priests to continue the renewal of this sacrifice.
At a certain point in the split of the Lutherans, they lost the line that streches all the way to an apostle who transmitted holy orders. This means that they no longer had the power to keep offering the sacrifice.

So I ask you, if you have devotion to the Eucharist, which is His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, then why are you away from His Church? Luther was man who was full of hate for the papacy, because the papacy, though the weakest link of the three that unite us with God, that is The Eucharist, The Virgin Mary and the Pope, but instead of helping and embracing the weakest, he promptly chose to break with it. He spoke against corruption, yet he was as corrupt as any. When he saw his concubine looking out the window to the stars, he promptly told her that she can forget about that Heaven.

You think it is you that has a great desire to receive Him.
But in reality, it is He who burns with desire to be with you.
He awaits for you, day and night, in every single one of His Churches. He calls to you…

Come home my child, let me show you how much I love you!

 

[AJV]

Interpretations of the language of the canon, as well as what constitutes need, can be found in the 1972 Instruction and 1973 Note by the Secretariat for Promoting Christian Unity.

 

[FrDavid96]

Fr David,

Please tell me where any of my posts indicated that I interpreted any canon law to “bring about an intercommunion”. This person is away from any connection to his religion, and has expressesd a grave need, and belief in the Real Presence. I just quoted the law which said it is up to the Bishop, and suggested he ask the Pastor to help him get in touch with the Bishop.

Lux

1. There is no grave need. In fact, the situation hasn’t even happened yet–it’s still in the future. One cannot make plans to have an urgent, grave necessity as required by c 844.
2. It’s not enough to express only a belief in the real presence because the denial of one or more truths of the faith regarding these sacraments and, among these, the truth regarding the need of the ministerial priesthood for their validity, renders the person asking improperly disposed to legitimately receiving them.
3. The bishop is not competent to dispense from the requirements of canon 844.

 

[FrDavid96]

I maybe wrong here and please anyone correct me if I am. I thought Lutherans are excommunicated from the Church. Isn’t this correct anyone. If this is so, how should a Lutheran be granted permission to receive Holy Communion from the Church? It was stated clearly in the canon law that Lutheran is not in the list of those allowable denominations.

Tet

Tet,
You’re right. In cases of urgent, grave necessity, when it is impossible for a non-Catholic to approach a minister of his own faith, and that person expresses a complete belief in all of the Eucharistic doctrine & dogma, and requests it on his own, it might be possible for a Lutheran to be given Communion. But these are very extreme conditions.

 

[Tetiaroa]

Tet,
You’re right. In cases of urgent, grave necessity, when it is impossible for a non-Catholic to approach a minister of his own faith, and that person expresses a complete belief in all of the Eucharistic doctrine & dogma, and requests it on his own, it might be possible for a Lutheran to be given Communion. But these are very extreme conditions.

Thank you FrDavid.

Of course, in cases or urgent, and grave necessity etc that a non-baptized (baptized in non-Catholic Church) be given the sacraments. At my place, we have had one Baptist who on his death bed request for a Catholic funeral while another case was a Bahai preacher requesting for Catholic baptism, confession, holy communion and annointing before while he was dying in hospital. What I am asking is those who just wanted to receive the sacrament because of what they belief looks like Catholicism.
Tet

 

[FrDavid96]

Thank you FrDavid.

Of course, in cases or urgent, and grave necessity etc that a non-baptized (baptized in non-Catholic Church) be given the sacraments. At my place, we have had one Baptist who on his death bed request for a Catholic funeral while another case was a Bahai preacher requesting for Catholic baptism, confession, holy communion and annointing before while he was dying in hospital. What I am asking is those who just wanted to receive the sacrament because of what they belief looks like Catholicism.
Tet

Tet,
In the first case, the Baptist man might be permitted a Catholic funeral because the funeral ritual itself is not a sacrament (the person is deceased, so there can’t be a sacrament even though the living Catholics do receive Communion if there was a Mass). In the second, the Bahai preacher became a Catholic when he requested baptism, so he was given the other Sacraments. But (to use your own words) “those who just wanted to receive the sacrament because of what they belief looks like Catholicism” cannot be admitted to the Sacraments of confession, anointing or Communion. What you stated in your earlier post is correct, and that hasn’t changed. But what you’ve described in your latest post are examples of two very different situations–different from each other, and different from your first example.

Those who are baptized, but are not Catholic may only receive the Sacraments in very extreme circumstances, unless of course they freely choose to join the Church in which case they become eligible for them by becoming Catholic. On the other hand, those who are not baptized cannot receive any other sacrament, regardless of the circumstances.

 

[Tetiaroa]

FrDavid,
You didn’t get me there well. My bad for not really clarifying myself. I gave two different examples of what is acceptable by the Church. Those example were of course making sense. What I was trying to seek was something new to me. That is, a Lutheran thinking that what he beliefs seems to be Catholic will be allowed to receive Holy Communion. You made it clear that only in rare cases and at times of danger would a non-Catholic be given the sacrament. So the catch is a Lutheran who cannot attend a Lutheran Church service because of being isolated away from his Lutheran Church is asking if he could attend a Catholic Mass and receive Holy Communion because what he believes is similar to Catholic faith regarding the Holy Eucharist. That was my point. So is this up to the Parish priest or should the Lutheran needs to become Catholic first?

Tet

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid,
You didn’t get me there well. My bad for not really clarifying myself. I gave two different examples of what is acceptable by the Church. Those example were of course making sense. What I was trying to seek was something new to me. That is, a Lutheran thinking that what he beliefs seems to be Catholic will be allowed to receive Holy Communion. You made it clear that only in rare cases and at times of danger would a non-Catholic be given the sacrament. So the catch is a Lutheran who cannot attend a Lutheran Church service because of being isolated away from his Lutheran Church is asking if he could attend a Catholic Mass and receive Holy Communion because what he believes is similar to Catholic faith regarding the Holy Eucharist. That was my point. So is this up to the Parish priest or should the Lutheran needs to become Catholic first?

Tet

Tet,

You had it correct back in post #27.

In THIS post of yours (right here) such a person (a Lutheran to be specific) would have to be in a situation where it is impossible to approach a minister of his own faith (so there would have to be no Lutheran minister available–not just a matter of an inconvenience but outright impossible.) His belief would have to be ENTIRELY what the Church believes, and that includes belief in the priesthood and Apostolic succession being absolutely necessary for the Eucharist to be present. This is the part which gets difficult, because a Lutheran who believes that what the Lutheran ecclesial community celebrates is somehow communion would NOT have a belief in what is necessary for the Eucharist from the point-of-view of the Church. This is the part which often gets overlooked. Some people think that some belief in the Eucharist is “good enough”, or that it’s enough to merely believe that Christ is somehow present in the Eucharist, without ALSO believing all of the rest of the doctrine of the Eucharist. The belief must be complete. What I have never understood is how this is possible. How can one believe entirely in the truths of the Church with regard to the Eucharist and yet still remain non-Catholic? Nevertheless, the Church says that it’s possible, so the fact that I don’t understand it doesn’t change anything.

To answer your question, no it is not “up to the priest.” First, the conditions have to be met, then the bishop must be consulted and he must agree that ALL of the conditions of canon 844.4 have been met. If any of those conditions have not been met, then not even the bishop is competent to dispense from the canon and allow Communion to be given. The priest is not competent to make that decision on his own with first presenting the case to the bishop.

After all of that happens, the priest would be permitted to give Communion to a Lutheran, but would still have no obligation to do so.

 

[allhers]

To the OP of this question. I strongly recommend that you obey the good FrDavid96’s post here, he will not lead you wrong. He appears to be a very good man of God that knows what he is talking about.

I will keep you in my prayers too. (As others have told you on here also.) Perhaps one day you will come into full communion, so that you will be able to receive Holy Communion with us. In the meantime, remember that Spiritual Communion.

To you Fr. David, I almost cried when I read how some people are treating you, God bless you Father and thank you for all you do.

 

[Tetiaroa]

Tet,

You had it correct back in post #27.

In THIS post of yours (right here) such a person (a Lutheran to be specific) would have to be in a situation where it is impossible to approach a minister of his own faith (so there would have to be no Lutheran minister available–not just a matter of an inconvenience but outright impossible.) His belief would have to be ENTIRELY what the Church believes, and that includes belief in the priesthood and Apostolic succession being absolutely necessary for the Eucharist to be present. This is the part which gets difficult, because a Lutheran who believes that what the Lutheran ecclesial community celebrates is somehow communion would NOT have a belief in what is necessary for the Eucharist from the point-of-view of the Church. This is the part which often gets overlooked. Some people think that some belief in the Eucharist is “good enough”, or that it’s enough to merely believe that Christ is somehow present in the Eucharist, without ALSO believing all of the rest of the doctrine of the Eucharist. The belief must be complete. What I have never understood is how this is possible. How can one believe entirely in the truths of the Church with regard to the Eucharist and yet still remain non-Catholic? Nevertheless, the Church says that it’s possible, so the fact that I don’t understand it doesn’t change anything.

To answer your question, no it is not “up to the priest.” First, the conditions have to be met, then the bishop must be consulted and he must agree that ALL of the conditions of canon 844.4 have been met. If any of those conditions have not been met, then not even the bishop is competent to dispense from the canon and allow Communion to be given. The priest is not competent to make that decision on his own with first presenting the case to the bishop.

After all of that happens, the priest would be permitted to give Communion to a Lutheran, but would still have no obligation to do so.

Thanks FrDavid,
I hope this helps the person who started this thread.

Tet

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Originally Posted by **Lux et Tenebrae **
Fr David,

Please tell me where any of my posts indicated that I interpreted any canon law to “bring about an intercommunion”. This person is away from any connection to his religion, and has expressesd a grave need, and belief in the Real Presence. I just quoted the law which said it is up to the Bishop, and suggested he ask the Pastor to help him get in touch with the Bishop.

Lux

1. There is no grave need. In fact, the situation hasn’t even happened yet–it’s still in the future. One cannot make plans to have an urgent, grave necessity as required by c 844.

This person is not “making plans”, but has been without the Eucharist for 6 months.

Lux

 

[FrDavid96]

This person is not “making plans”, but has been without the Eucharist for 6 months.

Lux

Not quite. The OP has been without the Lutheran commemeration of the Lord’s Supper for 6 months. The Eucharist is a different matter.

 

[JCnMe]

((Macaroon))) has apparently not been back since the question was posted-let’s hope that the lack of compassion for someone who is obviously in turmoil over this-is not as evident in the response of the local Priest and Bishop-as it has shown up here…

Mark 10:13-14 … And they were bringing little children to Him that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them…But when Jesus saw them,He was indignant,and said to them,“Let the little children come to me,and do not hinder them, for such is the kingdom of God.”

…just a thought…