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Randy_Carson
Guest
Like any organization, structure developed as growth occurred.
Kind of a normal development, don’t ya think?
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Kind of a normal development, don’t ya think?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
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Church_Militant
Guest
:blushing: Thanks Randy…
I am an unworthy servant; I have only done what was my duty. (Luke 17:10)
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Bishopite
Guest
If the infallible Holy Spirit leads all of us into the truth, and all of the churches have differing doctrines which are the bride of Christ, to which church is the Holy Spirit correctly leading?
To which church is 1 Tim 3:15 reffering?
Mt 23:9 is saying don’t put on par by worship and authority any Earthly father equal to God alone, it does not say we are not to honor our father or that would contradict Mt 6:9-13 the “Lords prayer” The Pope and other leaders are sinners like we are (Rom 3:23). So if to honor someone other than God is wrong why would Jesus have said to honor your father and mother?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
From a Letter of John
“No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth” (3 John 4)
So, let’s recap:
Jesus uses the phrase “Father Abraham” in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Stephen, the first martyr of the Church, refers to those who eventually stoned him as “fathers”.
Paul calls others “fathers” and refers to himself as a “father” to his spiritual sons.
John, who never married, refers to his “children” making himself their “father”.
Time for someone to do some serious reflection, I think. :tiphat:
“No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth” (3 John 4)
So, let’s recap:
Jesus uses the phrase “Father Abraham” in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Stephen, the first martyr of the Church, refers to those who eventually stoned him as “fathers”.
Paul calls others “fathers” and refers to himself as a “father” to his spiritual sons.
John, who never married, refers to his “children” making himself their “father”.
Time for someone to do some serious reflection, I think. :tiphat:
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revmarty
Guest
My First Paragraph is in response to your comment and I quote.
"Early Christians were people on the run. They were savagely persecuted by the government. Structure grew out of the necessity for survival. To be a follower of Christ was a huge risk and leaders were ordained to replace the slain and rules were made in order that the Church could continue in spite of persecution. Our first Pope, Saint Peter, was martyred in Rome, but not before his authority was passed to another. "
It seems that because the early Church was persecuted and on the run they had a reprieve from the rules that you apply to the Christian and their one on one relationtionship with HS today.
you see in ASIA The Christian Church are savagely persecuted by the government and are they then closer or more open to the HS as their are many in underground Churches who don’t have a church building or Bibles for that matter, I am witness to many miracles daily in the Christian community we are involved in we see cancer, blindness, loss of hearing all manner of sickness healed and yet the biggest problem I face is the unbelieving so called believer, these are people who say that healings don’t happen like we report unless it is performed by an ordained or appointed church official, the Holy spirit doesn’t deal with the common man.
there are many sections of the Christian faith who doubt that God still speaks with authority and clarity to the everyday man and women, they believe miracles are reserved for the elect and unfortunatley they seem to give the response you gave about how the early Church needed that kind of stuff, but somehow we don’t.
who needs a God who is supernatural and powerful more than this world today? unfortunatley the Church is powerless and less Christlike then ever.
Marty
"Early Christians were people on the run. They were savagely persecuted by the government. Structure grew out of the necessity for survival. To be a follower of Christ was a huge risk and leaders were ordained to replace the slain and rules were made in order that the Church could continue in spite of persecution. Our first Pope, Saint Peter, was martyred in Rome, but not before his authority was passed to another. "
It seems that because the early Church was persecuted and on the run they had a reprieve from the rules that you apply to the Christian and their one on one relationtionship with HS today.
you see in ASIA The Christian Church are savagely persecuted by the government and are they then closer or more open to the HS as their are many in underground Churches who don’t have a church building or Bibles for that matter, I am witness to many miracles daily in the Christian community we are involved in we see cancer, blindness, loss of hearing all manner of sickness healed and yet the biggest problem I face is the unbelieving so called believer, these are people who say that healings don’t happen like we report unless it is performed by an ordained or appointed church official, the Holy spirit doesn’t deal with the common man.
there are many sections of the Christian faith who doubt that God still speaks with authority and clarity to the everyday man and women, they believe miracles are reserved for the elect and unfortunatley they seem to give the response you gave about how the early Church needed that kind of stuff, but somehow we don’t.
who needs a God who is supernatural and powerful more than this world today? unfortunatley the Church is powerless and less Christlike then ever.
Marty
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revmarty
Guest
Sorry I actually agree with you, I said I called my Dad Father because I don’t have a problem with the term Father.
thanks Marty
thanks Marty
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Zooey
Guest
Bestsmileys.com, Bestsmileys.com…There is an old Ike & Tina Turner song that says it best: “If the shoe don’t fit your foot, why do you keep trying it on???”
http://bestsmileys.com/nono/4.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/nono/4.gif I dinnae understand ye, laddie…I dinnae understand why ye must needs be so angry…http://bestsmileys.com/nono/4.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/nono/4.gif
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JoeyWarren
Guest
The structured walls of your own local church has a history of growth. When it first start, did it have a hierachy? Probably not. But I bet it does have an hierachy now, even though you do not recognize it as so. Do you have individual mission programs that do the following:
Clothe the naked.
Feed the Hungry
Quench the Thirsty
Visit the sick
Visit the imprisoned
If so, who heads these individual mission programs?
Who at your church as the final say in a decision that affects the entire local church?
Everything requires structure. That’s why Moses thru God established a structure and laws. The sheep have to be led. They cannot be left on their own.
Jesus gave Peter alone the keys to heaven. He gave Peter the power to loose and bind. He also gave the same power to the other apostles, but the keys were to Peter alone. Peter can loose what the other Apostles bind and bind what the other apostle loose.
Jesus left a Prime Minister in charge of Jesus own cabinet of Ministers. That is what the Pope is. He is the Prime Minister carrying out the orders of the Rightful King of Christianity.
Second, there is not one bit of scripture that is open to personal and private interpretation.
Thrid, Divine Inspiration is not extended to people whom have translated the Bible into the vernacular.
Fourth, before anyone can even attempt to Interpret, they shold have knowledge of the Koine Greek which is what the inspired texts were written in. Also one shuld have knowledge of the Judaic Culture that existed when these texts were being penned.
One cannot go by English alone.
Fifth, the Scriptures were interpreted within the first four centuries. There is no new General Revelation concerning the Scriptures.
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mercygate
Guest
"mercygate:
I said nothing about any “structured walls.” When I refer to the Church, I refer to the living deposit of faith handed on from the Apostles to the faithful in a continuing living stream through the Bishops in communion with those original Eleven to whom Jesus promised perptual guidance via the Advocate and to whom he entrusted the Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all nations.
The “Book” we call the New Testament was written by God through the pen of the teaching Church. When you remove the Book from the Spirit-guided Church that Christ promised to build upon Peter, then you cut it off from the mind of Christ.
The Church is an incarnational mystery, both as a mystical and a physical Body. Just as Christ had a body when he walked upon the earth among men, so now his Body is centered in his promise to Peter, for whom Jesus prayed that his faith would not fail. The Catholic Church is the historical locus of that promise, and her doctrinal continuity, which has grown with the integrity of the Vine to which she clings, has never departed from her Source.
The title of this thread is “Holy Father?” The earthly head of Christ’s Church bears that title in respect of the service he owes to his Boss.
Rev Marty,
I said nothing about any “structured walls.” When I refer to the Church, I refer to the living deposit of faith handed on from the Apostles to the faithful in a continuing living stream through the Bishops in communion with those original Eleven to whom Jesus promised perptual guidance via the Advocate and to whom he entrusted the Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all nations.
The “Book” we call the New Testament was written by God through the pen of the teaching Church. When you remove the Book from the Spirit-guided Church that Christ promised to build upon Peter, then you cut it off from the mind of Christ.
The Church is an incarnational mystery, both as a mystical and a physical Body. Just as Christ had a body when he walked upon the earth among men, so now his Body is centered in his promise to Peter, for whom Jesus prayed that his faith would not fail. The Catholic Church is the historical locus of that promise, and her doctrinal continuity, which has grown with the integrity of the Vine to which she clings, has never departed from her Source.
The title of this thread is “Holy Father?” The earthly head of Christ’s Church bears that title in respect of the service he owes to his Boss.
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mercygate
Guest
I usually agree 100% with what you write, Randy, but in this case, I beg to differ.
The Catholic Church has acquired certain organizational structures as a result of growth and her world-wide responsibility, but the basic apostolic structure of Bishops, Priests and Deacons is clearly in place before the close of the New Testament age. In Jesus’ naming Peter as the one who is to “strengthen your brethren” (in addition Mt. 16:18-19) he establishes Peter and Peter’s succesors as focal in the unity of Christ’s Church on earth.
The Church didn’t just have “normal development,” that development was destined from the beginning and fundamentally in place by the mid-first century.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Mercy-
I should have been more explicit. The tri-partite priesthood is clearly evident within the pages of the NT.
I was picturing the “structured walls” that RevMarty was referring to and imagining more of the bureaucracy that is necessary to keep an organization of 1 Billion + souls running more or less smoothly.
The congregations, the conferences of bishops, the code of canon law…all that developed later.
We are in full sync concerning the "seed’ being planted early even if the mature tree looks a bit different today!
Thanks for clarifying my cryptic comments. :tiphat:
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mercygate
Guest
Rev, my brother: It ain’t about buildings!
Maybe you should come on over to the Catholic Church. We have a 2000 year history of this sort of thing. The Church acknowledges many who have the gift of healing – some ordained; some not.
The Catholic Church (of all Christian bodies) acknowledges healings and miracles, and that they can be wrought by the Lord as a result of the intercession of “common” men. However, we do understand that the great profusion of miracles flourished with such strength in the early Church for the purpose of spreading the faith. We believe that they have continued but it would be false to say that they are normative today.
Catholic vocations to priesthood and monastic life are burgeoning in – where do you think? Lebanon. As you note, persecution builds faith.
We would never agree that the Church is “powerless.” Her members may be failing to appropriate her power, and the spirit of the age has infected the pews everywhere in the industrial West, but she does not lack the Power of her Head.
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mercygate
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I knew that! But we need to connect all the dots for people who haven’t seen the history of the Church “up close and personal” as we have.
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clmowry
Guest
So can I still call my fahter pop. Or are pop and dad out to? Should I call him Mr. Mowry or would that be giving him too much honor?
Maybe I’ll just stick with “hey you”.
Chuck
Maybe I’ll just stick with “hey you”.
Chuck
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estesbob
Guest
Well it depends. Marty interpets the Bible to say it is perfectly OK to call someone father other than God, Martin says it is Blasphemy. Both beleive in Sola Scriptura and both assert the Spirit will reveal the Truth to them. So how do we reconcile this?
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Yep, you guys say I don’t listen or pay attention but this is probably the 30th time i’ve responded to the same type of post.
ITS THE VAIN title. Not the one used in the term of fatherhood. Matt 23 clearly explains this.
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estesbob
Guest
Marty, who is a Born Again Christian, disagrees with you. You both use the same Bible, you both claim the Spirit will reveal the Truth to you but you come up with contradicting interpertaions. How do you reconclie this.
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djrakowski
Guest
A co-worker sent me an article on this topic by a Catholic priest, and I think this excerpt addresses the point my Catholic brothers and sisters have been trying to make (emphasis mine):
Exactly what is your purpose in hammering away on this point that has already been so adequately addressed?
Martin, you’re ignoring the passages of scripture quoted by myself, mercygate, Church Militant and others that speak of temporal and spiritual fatherhood (most notably, I believe, in the fact that Paul called Titus his true son in the faith, implying true spiritual fatherhood, which is the sense in which we refer to our priests and pope with this title). You’re ignoring history, logic, and the 2000-year consistent witness of the Church. You’re also ignoring the fact that your Protestant brother, ‘revmarty,’ disagrees with your interpretation of the Matthew 23 passage (which emphasizes the point estesbob has been repeating, which is, how are we to tell which of the various non-Catholic opinions on this subject are valid? Who’s interpretation is more Holy Spirit guided than the others?)
Exactly what is your purpose in hammering away on this point that has already been so adequately addressed?
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guanophore
Guest
I started a new thread for this, Marty, since it is off topic here. Are you saying that the holy spirit does not work through the Pope?
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