holy father?

[Church_Militant]

“holy Father”

IN SCRIPTURE THE TERM IS USED ONCE…
John 17:11 (New International Version)

11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

This is Jesus praying to God the Father, It sure seems any other use of this term would be pure blasphemy.

This is the usual a-C fallacious reasoning.

Based upon this reasoning you cannot call Jesus King of Kings because that title was used on pagan kings, and the title Queen of Heaven then cannot be used because someone used it for a pagan deity. It’s error to any thinking person, just using plain old God-given common sense.

 

[clmowry]

Your logic does not hold.

If you “must” conclude that using the term “Holy Father” to refer God excludes it’s use elsewhere, then you must also conclude that we cannot use any name that Christ uses to refer to God to refer to anyone else.

Since Christ uses “father” both for His “Father” in heaven and for an earthly “father” then your interpretation would require that Christ be guilty of blasphemy as well.

Since this cannot be the case, your interpretation must be wrong.

Chuck

“holy Father”

IN SCRIPTURE THE TERM IS USED ONCE…
John 17:11 (New International Version)

11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

This is Jesus praying to God the Father, It sure seems any other use of this term would be pure blasphemy.

 

[Church_Militant]

Your logic does not hold.

If you “must” conclude that using the term “Holy Father” to refer God excludes it’s use elsewhere, then you must also conclude that we cannot use any name that Christ uses to refer to God to refer to anyone else.

Since Christ uses “father” both for His “Father” in heaven and for an earthly “father” then your interpretation would require that Christ be guilty of blasphemy as well.

Since that cannot be the case, your interpretation must be wrong.

Chuck

 

[JoeyWarren]

Does anyone here at all know what “Blasphemy” actually means?

G987
βλασφημέω
blasphēmeō
blas-fay-meh’-o
From G989; to vilify; specifically to speak impiously: - (speak) blaspheme (-er, -mously, -my), defame, rail on, revile, speak evil.

1.impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.

2.Judaism. a.an act of cursing or reviling God. b.pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.

3.Theology. the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

4.irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself.

Number 3 might apply if we were actually saying that the Pope has the qualities of God, which we don’t.

Stupid logic MFM.

 

[mercygate]

“holy Father”

IN SCRIPTURE THE TERM IS USED ONCE…
John 17:11 (New International Version)

11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

This is Jesus praying to God the Father, It sure seems any other use of this term would be pure blasphemy.

Yet John calls the elders “fathers” and Paul refers to all the faithful as “hagioi” – “holy ones” (usually translated as “saints”).

 

[estesbob]

“holy Father”

IN SCRIPTURE THE TERM IS USED ONCE…
John 17:11 (New International Version)

11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

This is Jesus praying to God the Father, It sure seems any other use of this term would be pure blasphemy.

So now you concede it OK to call somene Father but not OK to call them Holy Father? Where does it say this Scripture (or is this your personal interpertation of the above?). And if we are saved by Faith alone why would we care if we were blashemous?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Show me where that is in the Word of God, Simon. I don’t think you can because it’s not there.

2 Timothy 3:15 (Today’s New International Version)

15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, **which are able to make you wise for salvation **through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[hosemonkey]

So do you think Christ was just saying this for the fun of it?

You are a protestant, why should this concern you? Protestants have honorific titles as well, “Reverend” Smith, "Pastor Bob etc. Does it chap your cheeks that Catholics do it? I think that you just have a problem with anything that Catholics do.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Yet John calls the elders “fathers” and Paul refers to all the faithful as “hagioi” – “holy ones” (usually translated as “saints”).

Read in context, paul may have used the term father as a description toward fatherhood, but not as a title or exhaltation, which Christ is clearly warning against as you can see by reading Matt. 23 in its entirety…

 

[estesbob]

2 Timothy 3:15 (Today’s New International Version)

15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, **which are able to make you wise for salvation **

through faith in Christ Jesus.

How does that translate into every one gets to have their own private interperation of Scripture? Oh i get it -that is you own private interperation of this verse!

 

[heisenburg]

15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation

through faith in Christ Jesus

This is directly talking about the OT. At the time of this letter, There was no “Holy Bible” Very few of the letters and Gospels had even been written. Furthermore, if Paul is telling Tim about scriptures since he had been born, he MUST be talking about the OT as this would mean scriptures PRIOR to Jesus.

To use this verse as proof is actually saying we can use the OT only, something I hope you do not subscribe to.

In Christ

 

[guanophore]

I am constantly amazed how you guys verbally treat the written word of God.

Scripture gives us what we need unto salvation.

If you believe that, Mfm, then why are you in this forum? Do you hope to convert all of us poor lost Catholics, so that we can relinquish all those things that go beyond just getting saved, and living life to the fullest, as Jesus intended? Do you wish us to leave our Sacred Tradition and convert to a Sola Scriptura church?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Since Christ uses “father” both for His “Father” in heaven and for an earthly “father” then your interpretation would require that Christ be guilty of blasphemy as well.

I think you made this up…He uses the title only for His Father in heaven!
Show me, otherwise…Cuz I beg to differ.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Read in context, paul may have used the term father as a description toward fatherhood, but not as a title or exhaltation…

Myfavoritemartin,

But what do you make of St. Paul here: 1 Cor 3:15 (New International Version)

Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

??

Simon, please try to understand that when Catholics use the term father they use it to show filial respect and love to their fathers in faith. This applies also to the use of the tile “Holy Father” in the case of the Pope. The filial respect shown is never a source of confusion between any of the earthly fathers with the One Heavenly Father of All, from which all fatherhood takes it being.

God Bless,
VC

 

[guanophore]

2 Timothy 3:15 (Today’s New International Version)

15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, **which are able to make you wise for salvation **

through faith in Christ Jesus.

Did you know mfm, that when this letter to Timothy was written, there was no new testament? Did you know that Paul is here referring to the Septuagint?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

This is directly talking about the OT. At the time of this letter, There was no “Holy Bible” Very few of the letters and Gospels had even been written. Furthermore, if Paul is telling Tim about scriptures since he had been born, he MUST be talking about the OT as this would mean scriptures PRIOR to Jesus.

To use this verse as proof is actually saying we can use the OT only, something I hope you do not subscribe to.

In Christ

Paul was given divine revelation from Christ, what makes you say that he would be talking about the OT, when Paul specifically writes that Christ came to fulfill the law?
Are you suggesting that Paul didn’t understand that Christ was salvation so instead he suggested that Timothy follow the mosaic law???
Peter and Paul both quote NT scripture numerous times…
IF and that is a big IF Paul was speaking of ONLY the OT, then it was about fulfilled prophesy, and understanding it…NO matter how you slice it it still says "wise unto salvation"
How does your church interpret this???

 

[JoeyWarren]

"myfavoritmartin:

am constantly amazed how you guys verbally treat the written word of God.

Scripture gives us what we need unto salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 (Today’s New International Version)

15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, **which are able to make you wise for salvation **

through faith in Christ Jesus.So since the only Scripture in existence at the time of this writing was just the Septuagint( The Old Testament in its entirety ) So you are saying that the Old Testament gives us what we need unto salvation?

 

[clmowry]

Well there is this: I think I count him calling, or having a son call, a man “father” 12 times. A nice round number so I think I’ll stop there.

Luke 15:11-22

11 Then he [Jesus] said, "A man had two sons, 12 and the younger son said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of your estate that should come to me.’ So the father divided the property between them. 13 After a few days, the younger son collected all his belongings and set off to a distant country where he squandered his inheritance on a life of dissipation. 14 When he had freely spent everything, a severe famine struck that country, and he found himself in dire need. 15 So he hired himself out to one of the local citizens who sent him to his farm to tend the swine. 16 And he longed to eat his fill of the pods on which the swine fed, but nobody gave him any. 17 Coming to his senses he thought, ‘How many of my father’s hired workers have more than enough food to eat, but here am I, dying from hunger. 18 I shall get up and go to my father and I shall say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I no longer deserve to be called your son; treat me as you would treat one of your hired workers.”’

20 So he got up and went back to his father. While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him, and was filled with compassion. He ran to his son, embraced him and kissed him. 21 His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son.’ 22 But his father ordered his servants, 'Quickly bring the finest robe and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.

Chuck

I think you made this up…He uses the title only for His Father in heaven!
Show me, otherwise…Cuz I beg to differ.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Paul was given divine revelation from Christ, what makes you say that he would be talking about the OT, when Paul specifically writes that Christ came to fulfill the law?
Are you suggesting that Paul didn’t understand that Christ was salvation so instead he suggested that Timothy follow the mosaic law???
Peter and Paul both quote NT scripture numerous times…
IF and that is a big IF Paul was speaking of ONLY the OT, then it was about fulfilled prophesy, and understanding it…NO matter how you slice it it still says "wise unto salvation"
How does your church interpret this???

How so? They wrote their letters before they died. The Gospels were written after the deaths of both Paul and Peter.

---

**How could they possibly quote something that has not even been written yet? **

---

Now they could quote from the “Oral Tradition” that preceded the written text. That I will believe.

---

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Simon, please try to understand that when Catholics use the term father they use it to show filial respect and love to their fathers in faith.

Matt 22 and 23 are clearly a warning to the religious elite…

Compare to some other scriptural warnings…

Isaiah 2:11-12
11 The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled
and the pride of men brought low;
the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.
12 The LORD Almighty has a day in store
for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted
(and they will be humbled),
New International Version (NIV)

Isaiah 5:15-16

15 So man will be brought low
and mankind humbled,
the eyes of the arrogant humbled.
16 But the LORD Almighty will be exalted by his justice,
and the holy God will show himself holy by his righteousness.

Ezekiel 21:26

26 this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Take off the turban, remove the crown. It will not be as it was: The lowly will be exalted and the exalted will be brought low.

Job 32:21 Let ~me~ not, I pray you, accept any man’s ~person~, neither let me give ~flattering titles ~unto man~.

Job 32:22 For I know ~not~ to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

Job 13:10 He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.

Here’s unto “respect” which shows ~inner reprove~ as above.

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.