holy father?

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myfavoritmartin said:
As i said before I use the same authority to understand scripture as you used to determine the catholic church was the correct church…
My imperect one.
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It is not the same authority. We use
  • Scripture itself, taken both literally and in depth (not literalistically)
  • History of the actual continuing practice of all Apostolic Churchs from NT times to the present – footnoted by the Protestant practice of calling pastors “Father” up to the mid-nineteenth century
  • Sacred Tradition
  • Reason
  • Faith and (gasp)
  • The guidance of the Holy Spirit, who is not a freelancer
    Up against this list you claim a unique relationship with the Holy Spirit who guides you individually, personally, and fallibly into the correct view of scripture.
 
mercygate said:
It is not the same authority. We use
  • Scripture itself, taken both literally and in depth (not literalistically)
  • History of the actual continuing practice of all Apostolic Churchs from NT times to the present – footnoted by the Protestant practice of calling pastors “Father” up to the mid-nineteenth century
  • Sacred Tradition
  • Reason
  • Faith and (gasp)
  • The guidance of the Holy Spirit, who is not a freelancer
    Up against this list you claim a unique relationship with the Holy Spirit who guides you individually, personally, and fallibly into the correct view of scripture.
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Well said, mercygate! :clapping:

I wonder if this post will get you removed from MfM’s ‘ignore’ list 😉
 
MariaG said:
Yes it appears that he has dug a hole that he does not wish to acknowledge he is in.

Scripture shows the use of the word Father being used for spiritual fathers. So he now must show that our usage of Holy Father is for vain purposes rather than a familial and spiritual usage.

So instead of just confronting this head on, ignore seems to be the solution.

But I can’t even get him to say that this is what he does mean.

Father is okay for a spiritual use? But Holy Father is vain because…?

Ah well, you are in good company:D
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I beleive his iterpertation is “let no CAHOLIC call one father”
 
Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you [a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the sinful nature, ** God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful humanity to be a sin offering. [c] And so he condemned sin in human flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind controlled by the sinful nature [d] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The sinful mind [e] is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

** 9 You, however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but are in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you**. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life [f] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of [g] his Spirit who lives in you.
Code: 
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 

**14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God**. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. [h] And by him we cry, "Abba, * Father." 16 **The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children***. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. **
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you [a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful humanity to be a sin offering. [c] And so he condemned sin in human flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. **
** 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind controlled by the sinful nature [d] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The sinful mind [e] is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but are in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life [f] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of [g] his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. [h] And by him we cry, “Abba, * Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children*. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

And the point is???
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“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you” (Jn 14:26).
 
myfavoritmartin said:
“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you” (Jn 14:26).
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How is this revelant to the dicussion at hand? If you are going to quote Scripture, make your point.
 
estesbob said:
And the point is???
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Don’t be dense, Bob. Clearly, as any blood-bought, spirit-led man would know, if he were not blinded by the spirit of Satan, we are not led by the spirit, we do not have the mind of Christ, we don’t have the spirit of Christ, we are not God’s children, we are living according to our sinful nature . . . .
 
myfavoritmartin said:
“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you” (Jn 14:26).
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So we are back to the Spirit revealing to you the truth. Which brings us back to why did the Spirit reveal to you a truth different from the one he revealed to marty?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
You guys have been reading the riot act regarding personal interpretation, I am sharing scripture regarding it.
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So per your personal interperation of these verses we are to personally interpert scripture. now that is a circualr argument!
 
estesbob said:
So we are back to the Spirit revealing to you the truth. Which brings us back to why did the Spirit reveal to you a truth different from the one he revealed to marty?
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I don’t know pray for an answer and maybe the Spirit will enlighten you.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
You guys have been reading the riot act regarding personal interpretation, I am sharing scripture regarding it.
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How do you explain the problems with it? Would the HS contradict himself? Example: You and a practicing Catholic have two different contradictory interpretation of John 6. Both claim to be guided by the HS. Who is right? Is the Catholic’s interpretation less valid than yours following personal interpretation? If one is allowed to followe personal interpretation, how come the Catholic is wrong (if you believe so)?

Back to the subject at hand. Why do you believe that “Holy Father” is “elitist”? How come calling your pastor “Reverend” or “Pastor” is not? How come the Pope can be our spiritual father yet any familial title is seen as bad?

Please answer kindly…
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Your insinuating that my reading scripture is garbage in garbage out…That is quite offensive.

I’ve quoted our Lords words and this is what you’ve to say…
WOW!
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Scripture is not someone. I said SOMEONE fed you garbage. Scripture is inaminate paper and ink. By the way I detest anti-catholics that use the word Scripture. That is a latin word for Document and is the domain of the Catholic Church since to the best of my knowledge no other church has put out latin Bibles.

You’ve quote our Lord’s words from a twisted and distorted position. You did not learn this “Call No Man Father” argument from the Bible. You learned it from another source as all others have before you. If you had learned it from the Bible without any outside influence, you would come to the conclusion that you cannot call anyone father at all and call anyone teacher at all and call anyone master at all. That would be the logical conclusion for anyone that is reading the Bible for the very first time and came upon that bit of scripture. Otherwise you would not be concentrated on the Father alone issue.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
SO bob, tell me are you allowed to interpret any verses?
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I am allowed to interpert as many verses as i want-and when my iinterperation conflicts with the teacings and traditions of the Catholic Church I know my interperation is wrong. I dont read scpiture to find the truth-I read Scripture to understand the Truth more fully
 
I am still waiting on your rebuttal to this.
Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Care to share how you jumped to this conclusion, each time I read Acts 10: I see nothing of the sort.
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Acts 10: 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

MFM, you hatred of the Catholic Church is so deep, that when told, you still don’t see.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
That begs that question. Can the same Spirit enlighten two different people with contradictory answers?
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Nope! But the spirit can lead all to truth!
Are you guys so arrogant as to think the true path to salvation and indwelling of the HS can only happen through the CC and its sacrements? Do you think God only allows players at one position (so to speak) on HIS team.
And then ya’ll follow up calling us seperated brethren, that is the height of arrogance. Whatever happened to humble servants?
 
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