Holy Ghost, Can Give Direct Perfect Truths, According To The Bible, With The Bible And As To Moses And Paul Today?

[Logan5]

Hi, my second thread here. I believe that the Holy Spirit revealed to Moses, Ezekiel, and Saul of Tarsus, is the same yesterday, today and forever. He can still do this, and even heal us as with the twelve apostles.

He gave us the Bible and can give it again.

He can us it to teach us.In it are mentioned of gifts, 1 Corinthians 12 and oil blessings Isaiah 11:2.

Also living water, the bread of life, fire, and Jesus blood. All for love 1 Corinthians 13 and 14.

These can be tested against the Devil’s deception with the Bible and Holy Spirit for certain, and I quote.
1Jo 2:26 I am writing this to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
1Jo 2:27 But as for you, Christ has poured out his Spirit on you. As long as his Spirit remains in you, you do not need anyone to teach you. For his Spirit teaches you about everything, and what he teaches is true, not false. Obey the Spirit’s teaching, then, and remain in union with Christ.
1Jo 2:28 Yes, my children, remain in union with him, so that when he appears we may be full of courage and need not hide in shame from him on the Day he comes.

We can ask for prophecy, knowledge, interpretations of tongues, and be led in the Bible from verse to verse according to the author.

This is according to Catholic teaching and present day practice in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, found in every city. Officially and approved by the Pope Catholic movement. Pope John Paul the second was a hero of this move.

It means that not only the Magisterium, the Bishops, can be led in truth by the Spirit.

And as a non Catholic charismatic, that infallible truths can be revealed to people other than the pope, and I doubt the infallibility of the Pope.

I want to know what people here think of the Holy Spirit with regards to His power, and revelation ability and will.

Can He breathe on people today as on the twelve at the end of the Gospel?

How do you test for Him and His truth?

Do you rely only on the Bishops?

What about the completeness of the Bible under the Holy Spirit as teacher, is it complete?

How do you test the gifts of the Spirit?

How do you test the Bishops?

 

[anjoh66]

The Pope and the bishops are humans like you and me.

Therefore they can err like everyone else

The infallibility of the Pope only occurs when he makes a statement ex cathedra, which means to manifest a dogma.

A dogma is something that the church has always believed, for example the immaculate conception of Mary.

Pope John Paul II was going to make a statement “ex cathedra” about female priests but was adviced not to do so, so he didnt.

He could have done so as we know that female priests has never excisted in the church.

And of course the Holy Spirit guides everyone not only priests and bishops, but remember that Christ himself put them in authority over ordinary people and St. Paul confirmed this.

Being led by the Spirit doesnt mean that you are free to make your own personal interpretations.

 

[anjoh66]

Secondly, both Moses and Paul were ministers of the divine truth, they were not ordinary lay people like you and me.

If the spirit was about to guide all the people into the truth, then there was no need for either Moses nor Paul was it?

No the spirit was about to guide the church into the whole truth, therefore the church is infallible and can not err.

 

[anjoh66]

You quoted 1 John 2:26-28

It is very dangerous to quote some verses from the bible without having the knowledge about their real meaning.

If it means what you imply then we have no need of any of the apostles nor John himself.

I would like to draw your attention to this commentary from The Haydock catholic bible commentary about this verse:

Ver. 27. You have no need, &c. You want not to be taught by any of these men, who, under pretence of imparting more knowledge to you, seek to seduce you, (ver. 26) since you are sufficiently taught already, and have all knowledge and grace in the Church, with the unction of the Holy Ghost, which these new teachers have no share in. (Challoner) — His unction teacheth you concerning all things. Unction here signifies the doctrine which they received together with the Holy Ghost or Spirit of God; in which he exhorts them to remain, as being sufficient for their instruction, and to make them avoid the new teachers of false doctrine. (Witham)

It is crucial to know why John wrote as he did not just reading his words and take them literary.

 

[fermat]

Welcome! Hope you enjoy what you learn here at CAF. This is a great resource for anyone wanted to learn about or challenge the Catholic faith.

I am going to pick a few points:

He gave us the Bible and can give it again.

The Holy Spirit did not give us the Bible. The Holy Spirit inspired the sacred authors to speak His words and to ensure that they were taken down and passed down properly. Everything in the Bible came from the Holy Spirit, but the Bible as a collection of 73 books came from the Catholic Church.

There is an early Christian document called the Didache that was considered to be inspired by some early Christians, but not by all. How do you know it really isn’t? After the Protestant revolution, Luther took out seven books of the Bible, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach and Baruch. How do you know if they really should be there?

In short, how do you know that the Catholic church didn’t make a mistake? You might be missing some books…

And as a non Catholic charismatic, that infallible truths can be revealed to people other than the pope, and I doubt the infallibility of the Pope.

Just for clarification, the Pope is only infallible when speaking on matters of Faith and Morals. He is not impeccable and he is not infallible if he talks about the Superbowl.

Do you rely only on the Bishops?

To guide us in Faith and Morals, yes.

What about the completeness of the Bible under the Holy Spirit as teacher, is it complete?

As a teacher, no. No where in the Bible does the Bible make the claim that it is the complete word of God. Before there was written tradition (Scripture) there was oral tradition. The Bible is simply the written oral tradition.

How do you test the gifts of the Spirit?

I don’t know that I would say that I test my gifts. I certainly try to use them.

We can ask for prophecy, knowledge, interpretations of tongues, and be led in the Bible from verse to verse according to the author.

Amen! (except maybe the prophecy part. I don’t understand prophecy well enough to speak to that)

 

[Logan5]

Moses and Paul were ordinary people.

What God gave them He can and still does give today, and as God He is always original. Just like Moses’, Ezekiel 's and Paul’s experiences and revelations were different.

There is Smith Wigglesworth and TL Osborne, and John Wesley , Randy Clark and Reinhard Bonnke’s revelation and empowerments…,…,…

People today have out of body and near death experiences. They meet God or on earth seek and find His face. Like Gary Oates and Ian McCormack.

There is not meant to be a division between the Moses/Paul type and the Apollos and lay person types.

I EMPHASIZE, THERE IS NOT A LAY PEOPLE AND AN ACTIVE PEOPLE TO WHOM IS GIVEN A REVELATION AND POWER.

REVELATION AND POWER IS NEEDED BY ALL THE CHURCH FOR THEIR PARTS AS COMMISSIONED AND THEY NEED IT FOR SANCTIFICATION AND SALVATION, AND FOR THE EFFECT ON OTHERS. THERE ARE NOT MEANT TO BE LAY PEOPLE, BUT YOUTH AND ELDERS.

I personally hate this idea of lay people, I believe many of them will lose eternal life, and some snobbish and covetous of privilege keep others away from God’s love and grace supposing that the traditions are enough for them. In the early church, it may have been sinfully like this, and later it was mentioned in Corinth that there was jealousy.

Corinth was a place like it should be with privileges and giftings, each with a plan from God and mission, even if not involving traveling.

We should not rely on bishops and we should rely on God’s hand and face. We should not rely on other’s interpretation of the Bible but hear and read like the Ephesians and learn from the author the Holy Spirit who wrote through such as John.

Paul mentioned when a word was from his own judgment.

No scripture is of any private interpretation, but the Spirit teaches and not only through bishops and sometimes the bishops err.

Your quote anjoh66 explaining my quote 1 John 2:26-28 does not deter my use of it. The Holy Spirit explains all things even the authenticity of His own blessing and presence, and makes that one independent of need of others, but not so that they go without community and fellowship.

Act 17:26 From one human being he created all races of people and made them live throughout the whole earth. He himself fixed beforehand the exact times and the limits of the places where they would live.
Act 17:27 He did this so that they would look for him, and perhaps find him as they felt around for him. Yet God is actually not far from any one of us;
Act 17:28 as someone has said, ‘In him we live and move and exist.’ It is as some of your poets have said, 'We too are his children
GNB

 

[Church_Militant]

There is Smith Wigglesworth and TL Osborne, and John Wesley , Randy Clark and Reinhard Bonnke’s revelation and empowerments.

And so we know these modern men are from God by their signs and wonders?

That doesn’t jive with the Word of God Sir.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mark 13:22 For there will rise up false Christs and false prophets, and they shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce (if it were possible) even the elect.

People today have out of body and near death experiences. They meet God or on earth seek and find His face. Like Gary Oates and Ian McCormack.

See citations from the Word of God above.

There is not meant to be a division between the Moses/Paul type and the Apollos and lay person types.

I EMPHASIZE, THERE IS NOT A LAY PEOPLE AND AN ACTIVE PEOPLE TO WHOM IS GIVEN A REVELATION AND POWER.

REVELATION AND POWER IS NEEDED BY ALL THE CHURCH FOR THEIR PARTS AS COMMISSIONED AND THEY NEED IT FOR SANCTIFICATION AND SALVATION, AND FOR THE EFFECT ON OTHERS. THERE ARE NOT MEANT TO BE LAY PEOPLE, BUT YOUTH AND ELDERS.

Really? So then the laying on of hands and consecration/ordination of certain men as laid out in the New Testament is in error? I think I’ll have to stick with the Word of God rather than what you have offered so far Sir.

Paul plainly tells the Corinthian church that there are differences in ministries and gifts but one body. Also…if there were not a clergy & laity the why would the New Testament teach us that “a workman is worthy of his wages” with regard to insuring that the clergy had what they needed to live.

Also why would the early church have begun to select and use deacons and in fact pointing out that the ministry shouldn’t be neglected to attend to temporal works of mercy? It’s a;l; right there in the New Testament.

I personally hate this idea of lay people, I believe many of them will lose eternal life, and some snobbish and covetous of privilege keep others away from God’s love and grace supposing that the traditions are enough for them.

You’ll need to take that up with the Holy Spirit since it was His doing and His inspiration that records it in the New Testament.

Personally I don’t think you actually have much of a clue as to what Tradition lends to the study of the Word of God.

I get into some of this in a couple of my blog articles that might clear up your errant thinking. Sacred Tradition and Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

In the early church, it may have been sinfully like this, and later it was mentioned in Corinth that there was jealousy.

Corinth was a place like it should be with privileges and giftings, each with a plan from God and mission, even if not involving traveling.

Corinth was anything but the only church to get a letter in the New Testament, and virtually every one of them addresses some human failing within its ranks. As an ex-Penetcostal of over 30 years I have seen that there is little difference in teh ranks of members of congregations. You can read about it all in My Testimony

We should not rely on bishops and we should rely on God’s hand and face.

Oh so we should not rely on them, even though Almighty God shows us in His Word that He chose and established them by the Holy Spirit even in the early church… Furthermore the verifiable historical writings of the early church…by men who were discipled directly by an apostle, (John in this case!) would clearly disagree with you when St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote to the church at Smyrna less tha 10 years after St. John died.

CHAP. VIII.–LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.(2) even as where Christ is, there does all the heavenly host stand by, waiting upon Him as the Chief Captain of the Lord’s might, and the Governor of every intelligent nature. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love-feast.(1) But that which seems good to him, is also well-pleasing to God, that everything ye do may be secure and valid.

(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

We should not rely on other’s interpretation of the Bible but hear and read like the Ephesians and learn from the author the Holy Spirit who wrote through such as John.

In that case I will reject your remarks as being your own interpretation, having already read the Bible for myself (many times) and finding that what you have so far offered is in error.

No scripture is of any private interpretation, but the Spirit teaches and not only through bishops and sometimes the bishops err.

Really? Where is that in the Word of God? You actually just added to the Word of God with that because I know the Bible and here’s what that passage actually says.

2nd Peter 1:16 For we have not by following artificial fables, made known to you the power, and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ; but we were eyewitnesses of his greatness. 17 For he received from God the Father, honour and glory: this voice coming down to him from the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 18 And this voice we heard brought from heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. 21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit explains all things even the authenticity of His own blessing and presence, and makes that one independent of need of others, but not so that they go without community and fellowship.

I defy you to provide a New Testament passage that even infers that because I know no such exists.

You’re right about one thing though. The Holy Spirit does inspire and protect perfect truth. He’s been dong a brilliant job of it for 2,000 years within the Catholic Church. The Church that Our Lord Jesus Christ founded.

That same church answered all these essential errors when they first surfaced some 500 years ago and the answers have not changed. They are still the new winds of doctrines of men today…and still in error.

As St. Paul told the Galatians. “6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. *8 *But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.” (Chapter 1)

 

[Logan5]

Church Militant, my testimony is quite unlike yours. In the early church many fell asleep as you say because of taking the body and blood in guilt, but I in my adult years as a Catholic, did not get blessed or cursed. I really needed blessings, but, there was emptiness.

As regarding the bishops, and your quote from Ignatius, many of them are sincere good people, but in the eighth and ninth centuries, many of them were politicized, I have heard, and it is evident. Also some bishops mishandled sexually immoral priests and the issue was raised publicly around the year 2000. They did in church matters gravely err. Also some in WW2.

I don’t see why you quoted Peter, his verses there would make me want to read the New Testament in order for the day star to arise in my heart.

I defy you to provide a New Testament passage that even infers that because I know no such exists.

This is why in earlier posts I quote 1 John 2:26-28… The Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit is a personal saviour.

And so we know these modern men are from God by their signs and wonders?

No, but signs and wonders are good. Encouraging and attractive. I refer the great wisdom, love, social holiness, and Biblical references. Also good works. John Wesley and the Methodists, William Booth and the Salvation Army, R.A. Torrey and his work on the work of the Holy Spirit still in print, along with Andrew Murray, persons of a pursuit of the character and revelation and power of God the Holy Trinity.

In retrospect wee see their work and how it holds the tests of time and adversity. And know their lives from studies. “You know a tree by it’s fruit.”

The Bible also says that you should not grieve the Holy Spirit and must not blaspheme Him.

If it were not for them and followers like Reinhard Bonnke, and others I mentioned, adding Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, and Joyce Meyer… televangelists and mega-church pastors, Amos 9:13 would not be fulfilled, the evangel, the reaper would not overtake the sower of souls, in the great commission of God’s heart and greatest passion, soul winning, and hundreds of millions of people would be lost from a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. A discussion on this is in the Evangelization forum.

Jesus greatest passion, the reason for the cross, “for God so loved the world”…the harvest of souls, the church is missing it’s heart without it!

Really? So then the laying on of hands and consecration/ordination of certain men as laid out in the New Testament is in error? I think I’ll have to stick with the Word of God rather than what you have offered so far Sir.

Paul plainly tells the Corinthian church that there are differences in ministries and gifts but one body. Also…if there were not a clergy & laity the why would the New Testament teach us that “a workman is worthy of his wages” with regard to insuring that the clergy had what they needed to live.

In the Corinthian church many were raised up, high, so there was jealousy. Also see Clements’ first letter to the Corinthians.

I know they were the most privileged church, and others were addressed as well, like the Ephesians… all had a gifting and a role in the body, and the laying on of hands was not only for a few, even the sinful Jews in opposition the Christ had destinies they missed.

After worship, lay people turn out to do more than worship and tithe, they prophesy and interpret tongues, lay on hands for healing and grow together in sanctity, leading non believers, when they hear their secret thoughts revealed, to Christ.

Especially young Ephesians and Corinthians would have been given dreams and visions, and would like Timothy, not only Timothy or a few but many would have prophetic words and laying on of hands, to an unnerving post, and jealous attacks…Acts 2:17.

And yes some were full time, local bishops and deacons, with the Holy Spirit and revelation conducted to them by the Apostles. This lasted for centuries.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Yes, the Holy Spirit can directly reveal truths to individual Christians today. The problem is that not every idea that pops into the head of a Christian is necessarily from the Holy Spirit. It may be from the Christian’s own imagination or it may be from the devil, disguised as an angel of light. (2 Cor 11:14) This is why St. John told us not to believe every spirit but to test the spirit to see if it is from God. (1 John 4:1)

Since we know that the faith was delivered once for all to the saints (the apostles) (Jude 1:3), the revelation-in-question should be tested against Apostolic Tradition, against those traditions delivered by the apostles by letter (Sacred Scripture) and by word of mouth (Sacred Tradition). (2 Thes 2:15) Even then, some things in Sacred Scripture are hard to understand and easily distorted. (2 Pet 3:16)

Providentially, the Bible tells us that the Lord gave us pastors and teachers (bishops) so that we would not be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. (Eph 4:11-14)

Though individual bishops are not necessarily infallible (except the bishop of Rome under very limited circumstances), we know, from Acts 15:1 - 16:4, that the conciliar decisions of the church elders (bishops) are also the infallible decisions of the Holy Spirit and they should be observed by the people. So, if the revelation-in-question contradicts past conciliar decisions of the church elders (bishops), then we know that it is not from God.

The Bible also tells us to obey our church leaders (bishops) and submit to them. (Heb 13:17) So, if the revelation-in-question is not approved by our church leaders (bishops), we should submit to their judgment. Even as St. Paul eventually submitted his teaching to the scrutiny of St. Peter and the other apostles. (Gal 2:2)

With respect to testing a bishop, if you think an individual bishop is teaching something contrary to Apostolic Tradition and the matter cannot be resolved one-on-one or before two or three witnesses, it should be referred to the bishop of Rome and council of bishops for their conciliar decision (Matt 18:14-16), as the question of circumcising Gentile converts, mentioned above, was referred to St. Peter and the other apostles and church elders (bishops) in council in New Testament times.

 

[Logan5]

In a normal church according to Ephesians 4:1-14, there would be a dozen bishops. In a church of 30.

Just about every member has an office. I recall the power in Stephen who was to attend tables, and became the first martyr.

Ephesians doesn’t say there are any exceptions from an office.

Philip the evangelist had four daughters who were prophetesses., Acts 21:8,9.

The bishops of the Spanish inquisition did not seem like bishops, instead killing Christ all over again. A lot like pharisees.

They needed the people they were killing, and Spain also did.

No, long ago they lost the plot, but some regained it…

Peter and James, and john, were ones with a special and exceptional revelation. Paul who saw Christ and Heaven needed their help. He also did not want to cause division. Later Paul corrects Peter for hypocrisy.

Relying on a leader is not good, one should rely on God. For Jesus sent the Holy Spirit of Pentecost to be among us as Jesus with the twelve.

Ultimately they show us to God’s face and commitment, to love and we become independent of them and interdependent. They on us and vice versa. Mostly dependent on the Spirit.

I agree we need elders to protect the faith in particular for the youth and against challengers. But there was a need for a challenger or many against the loss of truth in among Catholic bishops and teachers in the medieval church.

In the first five centuries the church rebutted each kind of false teaching. We need re-iteration…

In your quote from Matthew Todd, Jesus mentions that he will be there with two or three gathered in His name. Direct relationship, with a personal saviour.

Corinth reading from Paul and Clement was a great church that was stymied. Cessations argue against you, Catholics and I, saying the gifts ended with the death of the last apostle, and Corinth quietened down after that. It should not have, jealousy harmed them and suffering.

Church growth should have remained the same onwards, but stalled. People were jealous of others wisdom, favour, power, offices…

Later some were converted in war.

Thank God for the new world the Moravians and John Wesley!

 

[juliamajor]

Frankly I don’t understand what the heck this thread is about-except it reeks of anti-catholicism.
I don’t know if there is an official anti- catholic handbook or if you are given talking points when you join the Fundamentalists.It all sounds so trite, so overproduced -so canned.Heard it all before and I am just bored to death with the redundant polemics that some people take as theology or as dynamic Christianity…You spew out half truths bad history and just lousy understanding of all things Catholic.I find it very discouraging and heart breaking that being taught to despise Catholicism is part of your joining or being a good Fundamentalist. If you don’t believe me I suggest you google Catholicism or anything having to do with Catholics and you will literally come up with hundreds of poisonous websites that promote hatred toward all things Catholic - and this comes from their church websites. The problem is the absolute arrogance and condescending attitute that comes across as an atempt to ‘cure’,‘preach’ ,‘save’ those poor misguided unchristian Catholics-when a better idea would be to go to those poisonous websites confront their misguided ideas on Catholicism, correct the incredibly bad history put there and erase the outright lies that abound.
I’m sure that you believe or have been told that part of your mission is to show us the ‘error’ of our ways. The problem is insinuation , poor theology, and skewing of scripture won’t cut it.
The cult of anti- catholicism is alive and well in a variety and pushed by diverse groups. Why add to the hatred?
I don’t say this out of hatred but really out of pity and sadness. Peace to you.

 

[fermat]

Frankly I don’t understand what the heck this thread is about-except it reeks of anti-catholicism.
I don’t know if there is an official anti- catholic handbook or if you are given talking points when you join the Fundamentalists.It all sounds so trite, so overproduced -so canned.Heard it all before and I am just bored to death with the redundant polemics that some people take as theology or as dynamic Christianity…You spew out half truths bad history and just lousy understanding of all things Catholic.I find it very discouraging and heart breaking that being taught to despise Catholicism is part of your joining or being a good Fundamentalist. If you don’t believe me I suggest you google Catholicism or anything having to do with Catholics and you will literally come up with hundreds of poisonous websites that promote hatred toward all things Catholic - and this comes from their church websites. The problem is the absolute arrogance and condescending attitute that comes across as an atempt to ‘cure’,‘preach’ ,‘save’ those poor misguided unchristian Catholics-when a better idea would be to go to those poisonous websites confront their misguided ideas on Catholicism, correct the incredibly bad history put there and erase the outright lies that abound.
I’m sure that you believe or have been told that part of your mission is to show us the ‘error’ of our ways. The problem is insinuation , poor theology, and skewing of scripture won’t cut it.
The cult of anti- catholicism is alive and well in a variety and pushed by diverse groups. Why add to the hatred?
I don’t say this out of hatred but really out of pity and sadness. Peace to you.

 

[Logan5]

Frankly I don’t understand what the heck this thread is about-except it reeks of anti-catholicism.
I don’t know if there is an official anti- catholic handbook or if you are given talking points when you join the Fundamentalists.It all sounds so trite, so overproduced -so canned.Heard it all before and I am just bored to death with the redundant polemics that some people take as theology or as dynamic Christianity…You spew out half truths bad history and just lousy understanding of all things Catholic.I find it very discouraging and heart breaking that being taught to despise Catholicism is part of your joining or being a good Fundamentalist. If you don’t believe me I suggest you google Catholicism or anything having to do with Catholics and you will literally come up with hundreds of poisonous websites that promote hatred toward all things Catholic

Hi Juliamajor, I am not an anti-Catholic and not a fundamentalist.

I am a believer in the Spirit filled interpretation of the Bible, under the Holy Spirit now, and emphasize that the Holy Spirit now, is as powerful as in the Gospel, Pentecost, as with Moses, Ezekiel and Saul of Tarsus.

He is teacher alone. We need relate to Him and seek His face, trust Him.

The word of God and the Spirit are spiritual food, as in the word, referring to milk and meat.

I am friends with Catholics, and don’t want to trouble them, so it would be good to see exactly why this seems anti-Catholic.

Just because I disagree with Catholic teachings? The Catholics need the Holy Spirit, not just talk, or they lose a lot. WYD08 “You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you.” Acts 1:8. You do need this and began to have another Pentecost in PJP2’s day as the Pontiff prayed officially.

You need the laying on of hands, but on a billion people.

The system is not sufficient and is lagging or lumbering, The bishops are to lead you to the Holy Spirit, you need to rely on God, not on the church.

The bishops and the priests should be filled with the Spirit of grace and lead the youth and converts away from beliefs such as, that the Holy Spirit is a force, and help up, give a foot up, into knowing Him as a person and teacher, and Paraclete.

Many bishops and priests are ceremonial. I don’t hate them, I have fond memories of my Catholic days. I wish that I had been been filled with the Spirit then. I mean a lot and from younger, for when 21 I began to receive Jesus blood and living water, and words from my priests and staff.

I needed more. I don’t believe I can have this through any priests or bishops I know. But they are well raised really nice people, who would die to keep their morals.

 

[juliamajor]

I Am a Catholic Charismatic.I Have hands laid on me and have laid on hands.We are doubly blessed, and have the best of everything.We have scripture,sacraments, we have a sound theology, the Blessed Sacrament and, thank God, a hierarchy.Without a hierarchy, without church interpretation of scripture via tradition,we could and would go about doing ,saying and believing anything that would enter our little minds.Everyone interpreting scripture as they saw fit.
As a Catholic Charismatic I know that what I do and how I pray is a spirituality that brings me closer to God.But I also know that the Spirit is not so narrow, small and finite as to be held to my standards. He acts and moves as He wills- He is in the quiet and the noise , in sorrow and in joy.He is in the Sacraments, He is in our Church, ,He moves, breathes and lives among his people- no matter what standard you use to to confine Him.He is in the silent prayer, the open heart,the willing soul.He is ruah, He is pneuma, He is the eagle that flew over the earth at Creation , He is the whisper in our ear when the world is silent.
To confine God, Trinity, the Holy Spirit to what you perceive as the better way - is to make Him not God. If He is limited by our concepts , our limited view- then He is not God.

He carries His grace and mercy anywhere and eveywhere. He is the arbiter of who receives the gift of grace and how that grace moves us. He blesses all those who believe,and trust in Him.

 

[Logan5]

How do I confine the Holy Spirit? The issue here is the traditions down play Him, and people miss Him.

 

[Logan5]

I saw Tim Staples live in Sydney, and heard the debates pro Catholic against evangelicals and Pentecostals.

They said from stage that we can debate here in this site as named www.Catholic.com

I only meant to continue the debate raising points of dispute that Tim did not have time to answer in his talks. Also I expected he would be here to answer the questions himself.

 

[juliamajor]

How do I confine the Holy Spirit? The issue here is the traditions down play Him, and people miss Him.

By saying that the Holy Spirit is available only the charismatic worship- and that is what you are implying-you are confining Him. Like I said before He’s in the sacraments,He’s in inspired writings,He’s in creativity that gives God glory,He is in the small whisper,He is in the roaring flames.He’s in all these things and more-if you cannot see Him beyond the confines of charismatic behavior then, yes, you confine Him.Do people except Him? That’s the real question and it’s not as simple as saying ‘Amen’.

 

[Logan5]

Well, I have heard of masses where the priest dips and dips a baton in holy water and blesses the church, and they fall.

What I look for is evidence. People are strong, they give testimony… I acknowledge that people worship God and we can’t see it happen, in their hearts.

I know He is near one of us, and we can listen. Some have inspirited writings… yes. But if the Spirit manifests, and we don’t use a contemporary definition of charismatic, such as falling, and word of knowledge… then anything where He is evident is Spirit filled or charismatic. Or at least inspired.

I think that the Holy Spirit is as capable and present and creative and original as well as conventional as He was with Moses, Paul, and Ezekiel. But that the means of meeting Him, as by the laying on of hands from Peter and Paul to Clement and down through the first eight centuries then another seven hundred through the dark ages and to renaissance, and to know is not workable. There was too much sin and politics and lack of faith and evidence of such a flow.

My idea here is, The Spirit is great and we can ask Him directly for charisma, Jesus blood, the living water, fire, light, love Rom 5:5. For wisdom, rather than go to a priest and only rely on that source for the Spirit, as if there is no better way to grace.

 

[fermat]

Well, I have heard of masses where the priest dips and dips a baton in holy water and blesses the church, and they fall.

What I look for is evidence. People are strong, they give testimony… I acknowledge that people worship God and we can’t see it happen, in their hearts.

I know He is near one of us, and we can listen. Some have inspirited writings… yes. But if the Spirit manifests, and we don’t use a contemporary definition of charismatic, such as falling, and word of knowledge… then anything where He is evident is Spirit filled or charismatic. Or at least inspired.

I think that the Holy Spirit is as capable and present and creative and original as well as conventional as He was with Moses, Paul, and Ezekiel. But that the means of meeting Him, as by the laying on of hands from Peter and Paul to Clement and down through the first eight centuries then another seven hundred through the dark ages and to renaissance, and to know is not workable. There was too much sin and politics and lack of faith and evidence of such a flow.

My idea here is, The Spirit is great and we can ask Him directly for charisma, Jesus blood, the living water, fire, light, love Rom 5:5. For wisdom, rather than go to a priest and only rely on that source for the Spirit, as if there is no better way to grace.

Catholics rely on the full deposit of faith. Priest are part of that deposit. We don’t rely solely on them, but we allow them to do the job that Christ ordained them to do. If you choose to put your blinders on and ignore the gifts of the Holy Spirit, that is your mistake, not mine. Just because you don’t understand/believe/accept some aspects of God’s design for his people doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.