Holy Spirit in Quran : invitation to FaithofAbraham

[cascherman]

whoa, has anyone else noticed, FaithofAbraham has posted 480 times in just 8 days!!! Geez!

This has nothing to do with the thread. Sorry, just noticed.

 

[swariffin]

I can and do accept Trinity that way, without an incarnation.

The analogy goes:

1. Father = God.
2. Holy Spirit = God’s power gone out into the world.
3. God’s Word = God’s messages to the world.

2 & 3 dwell in humans and they become prophets. Or with Jesus, an existing human, they dwell with so much power that he rules over us like God does, but he only does it because God allows him to, he is still a man.

Similar to:

1. Me at the computer.
2. My action of typing.
3. My words and message you are reading.

Wow, put the incarnation aside, then we have FoA who claim to be a muslim, believing in Trinity. By no mean of any offense to any religion, I begin to doubt that FoA is really a muslim which has said the 2 syahada sentences. Very interesting. I must admit that I have good discussions with FoA. God bless you FoA.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Wow, put the incarnation aside, then we have FoA who claim to be a muslim, believing in Trinity. By no mean of any offense to any religion, I begin to doubt that FoA is really a muslim which has said the 2 syahada sentences. Very interesting. I must admit that I have good discussions with FoA. God bless you FoA.

I believe it the way I said which is not against Islam, not that Jesus was there with God as God in John 1:1. I believe that Jesus was a fully human prophet who God dwells in with great power.

 

[inJESUS]

I can and do accept Trinity that way, without an incarnation.

The analogy goes:

 

[FaithofAbraham]

very good . So you believe the Bible when it talkes about the Father, His Word and His Spirit as One God. Examples can be given from OT and NT.

So why don’t you believe the Bible when it says Jesus is not only a man, but the Creator of this universe, the Alpha and Omega, the Word in flesh?

Because Jesus the human spirit and flesh is a man, and God is God. In my “Trinity” scenario, God’s Spirit goes to dwell in the man and the man speaks God’s Word, so the man becomes God’s Word on earth, a prophet. Plus with Jesus a whole lot more as Messiah too, but also a prophet because that’s what prophets are, God’s Word to the people.

The way you have it, there is a Father God then like a little God or Mini-Me running around called God’s Word. God’s Word is just what the one God Father says and commands, it isn’t like another deity along with the Father.

 

[inJESUS]

Because Jesus the human spirit and flesh is a man, and God is God. In my “Trinity” scenario, God’s Spirit goes to dwell in the man and the man speaks God’s Word, so the man becomes God’s Word on earth, a prophet. Plus with Jesus a whole lot more as Messiah too, but also a prophet because that’s what prophets are, God’s Word to the people.

my question was this:

So why don’t you believe the Bible when it says Jesus is not only a man, but the Creator of this universe, the Alpha and Omega, the Word in flesh?

The way you have it, there is a Father God then like a little God or Mini-Me running around called God’s Word. God’s Word is just what the one God Father says and commands, it isn’t like another deity along with the Father.

 

[Mjae]

So Jesus is God’s Mini-Me? That’s a new one.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

my question was this:

So why don’t you believe the Bible when it says Jesus is not only a man, but the Creator of this universe, the Alpha and Omega, the Word in flesh?

such erroneous interpretations can be found in the Quran, not the Bible.

the Father, His Word, His Spirit = 1 God.

Incarnation is something else.

why do you believe the Bible when it says the Father, His Word, His Spirit = 1 God, yet reject the same Bible that says Jesus is The Word in flesh, the Creator?

I reject that God’s Word means another deity next to the Father, it is just a poetic way of describing what God says, and by extension, what a prophet says and is to the people – a prophet is God’s Word to the people.

I accept that Jesus is now elevated to God position over us, though he wasn’t born a God, he is still human. But he is so consumed by God’s Spirit that we are to obey him as if he were God.

So again I don’t think we are all that different, just on the matter of his being born a God.

 

[Kadaveri]

‘Holy Spirit’ in the Qur’an (such as 16:102) is a mistranslation. The Arabic is Ruh Al-Qudus, which actually means ‘Spirit of The Holiness’, not ‘Holy Spirit’, which is ***Al-*Ruh Al-Qudus (which if you look up any Arabic Bible you’ll see is the case).

So in other words, the Qur’anic and Biblical terms are not the same thing and aren’t meant to mean the same thing. Spirit of The Holiness in the Qur’an is a title for the Angel Gabriel.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

‘Holy Spirit’ in the Qur’an (such as 16:102) is a mistranslation. The Arabic is Ruh Al-Qudus, which actually means ‘Spirit of The Holiness’, not ‘Holy Spirit’, which is ***Al-***Ruh Al-Qudus (which if you look up any Arabic Bible you’ll see is the case).

So in other words, the Qur’anic and Biblical terms are not the same thing and aren’t meant to mean the same thing. Spirit of The Holiness in the Qur’an is a title for the Angel Gabriel.

However all angels and servants of God still work by the power of the Spirit of God, so it all comes out in the wash.

 

[inJESUS]

I reject that God’s Word means another deity next to the Father,

we reject this too. There is one deity who is the Father who created everything through His Word and Spirit. There are no “deities” next to the Father because His Word IS the Father and His Spirit IS the Father in essence, they proceed eternally from Him because they always existed as the Father;s essence. There is no time when the Father existed without His Word/Wisdom or Spirit.

a prophet is God’s Word to the people.

 

[JRKH]

I reject that God’s Word means another deity next to the Father, it is just a poetic way of describing what God says, and by extension, what a prophet says and is to the people – a prophet is God’s Word to the people.

I accept that Jesus is now elevated to God position over us, though he wasn’t born a God, he is still human. But he is so consumed by God’s Spirit that we are to obey him as if he were God.

So again I don’t think we are all that different, just on the matter of his being born a God.

I’m only going to interject here that I think this is an excellant discussion and I am following it with great interest because it fits well with some of my own understandings.

FoA, I think you have come as close to understanding the “trinity” as anyone. There is only one God. There are different aspect of God that Christians term “persons”. So many learned men have tried to understand and explain this but often it seems to only muddy the water further.
Overall I like your explaination of the trinitarian mystery and the “persons” or “spirits” of God. It makes good, logical sense.

James

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I’m only going to interject here that I think this is an excellant discussion and I am following it with great interest because it fits well with some of my own understandings.

FoA, I think you have come as close to understanding the “trinity” as anyone. There is only one God. There are different aspect of God that Christians term “persons”. So many learned men have tried to understand and explain this but often it seems to only muddy the water further.
Overall I like your explaination of the trinitarian mystery and the “persons” or “spirits” of God. It makes good, logical sense.

James

Thanks.

 

[Stephen0]

Interesting discussion. However remember, that the first core group that knew Jesus best would proclaim that Jesus was God, incarnated in flesh. Furthermore, they taught that the relationship between the Father and the Son was the Holy Spirit. Finally, they would rather die than deny what the Christ had instructed them to believe. Remember, that the High Priest Caiaphas forced Jesus under oath to answer him if he were the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One, and Jesus answered that he was. The response by this very knowledgeable Jewish official dramatized the severity of Jesus crime of stating that he was God, for Caiaphas tore his robe and proclaimed that Jesus was guilty of blasphemy. If the problem was that Jesus was the word of God as the other prophets had been then Jesus wouldn’t have been put to death on this technicality. Understandably, the Sanhedrin realized the magnitude of this upstart Jesus’s claim and needed to stop him. Prophet, hell, they had a mad man on their hands and needed to silence him then and there! If I had been raised a devout Jew, I could have agreed with the learned ones. ANYONE who really wants to understand Catholicism and therefore Christanity needs to go back and read the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. These men where trained by the apostles and would eventually give their life as their mentors had been forced to do to state the core truths of the Incarnation, Trinity, and the Eucharist, They gave no ground and recieved none in return. Blood was the only reward or answer. There was no quibbling for the Fathers writings state it all, so to understand us then understand their writings vouched for by their deaths.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

If the problem was that Jesus was the word of God as the other prophets had been then Jesus wouldn’t have been put to death on this technicality.

I think they put Jesus to death just for preaching of a coming Kingdom of God, which might have caused Romans to retaliate against all Jews for fear a massive rebellion was in the works.

Their efforts backfired since it happened anyway and they were destroyed.

Some Jews today also say that merely disagreeing with rabbis is blasphemy, because they only have the correct teaching directly from God, so even now it doesn’t take much for such charges depending on who you are dealing with.

 

[swariffin]

I think they put Jesus to death just for preaching of a coming Kingdom of God, which might have caused Romans to retaliate against all Jews for fear a massive rebellion was in the works.

No it was not, FoA. The Jews religious leader made such opinion to the Roman, otherwise the Roman would not interfere.

 

[swariffin]

whoa, has anyone else noticed, FaithofAbraham has posted 480 times in just 8 days!!! Geez!

This has nothing to do with the thread. Sorry, just noticed.

Dear Cascherman,

That is good of him/her. I wish I had more time and effort like him/her.

 

[holdencaulfield]

This is not why Jesus Christ was killed. He was killed because the Jews believed him to be guilty of blasphemy. Here is why:

“I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am! At this they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.” (John 8:58-59)

They did this because this was considered to be blasphemy.

 

[swariffin]

This is not why Jesus Christ was killed. He was killed because the Jews believed him to be guilty of blasphemy. Here is why:

“I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am! At this they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.” (John 8:58-59)

They did this because this was considered to be blasphemy.

Dear Holden,

You are correct. But, remember that they have no power to sentence people to death. Only the Roman at that time was. So, they made a scenario based on what Jesus said that Jesus was about to make a rebellion. The Roman would not interfere with the faith matter of the Jews.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Dear Holden,

You are correct. But, remember that they have no power to sentence people to death. Only the Roman at that time was. So, they made a scenario based on what Jesus said that Jesus was about to make a rebellion. The Roman would not interfere with the faith matter of the Jews.

Yes, but the root of the matter was that the Jews requested to have him killed for this reason.