Holy Strippers?

[cjmclark]

Well said, especially about the love, mercy and (all embracing) inclusiveness of Jesus.
I read an article not all that long ago that Jesus never tackled problems including social problems on a social level. He dealt with individuals and unique individuals, each with their own story and coming from their own story and he entered into community and communication with them without prejudice or exclusions of any kind. In fact He was accused of dining with prostitutes and sinners and one of His own apostles had been the lowest of the low in His society at the actual time that Jesus calls him to follow Him. Matthew was a tax collector.

Wasn’t Mary Magdalene a prostitute? (“Hair dresser”)

In any event, how about between husband and wife? There you go, that’s a good exception.

Jesus also told sinners to “sin no more” (John 8:11) and went on table-flipping rampages in righteous anger (Matt 21:12). There’s a vast difference between loving a sinful person (which we all are) and tolerating sinful behavior. As other posters have eloquently stated, a person’s circumstances don’t diminish the sinfulness of their behavior…only their potential culpability for the sin.

 

[Gaber]

Jesus also told sinners to “sin no more” (John 8:11) and went on table-flipping rampages in righteous anger (Matt 21:12). There’s a vast difference between loving a sinful person (which we all are) and tolerating sinful behavior. As other posters have eloquently stated, a person’s circumstances don’t diminish the sinfulness of their behavior…only their potential culpability for the sin.

Yes, that is the wonderful nature of black and white views held by folks who haven’t been there. Abstractly? Sure. Go ahead and make tht judgement. But you try those shoes and try to live out of those situations. See how abstract you can be in that circumstance, Catholic or not. You have no idea. None. Unless you have crashed from alcoholism, or abuse, or theft, or whatever, and made a go of it despite. Go try it. Let me know how easy it was to come back by your standards.

 

[cjmclark]

Yes, that is the wonderful nature of black and white views held by folks who haven’t been there. Abstractly? Sure. Go ahead and make tht judgement. But you try those shoes and try to live out of those situations. See how abstract you can be in that circumstance, Catholic or not. You have no idea. None. Unless you have crashed from alcoholism, or abuse, or theft, or whatever, and made a go of it despite. Go try it. Let me know how easy it was to come back by your standards.

LOL. Gaber, you know nothing about my life and I see no need to publicly display details of it for your satisfaction. I’ll just leave it at that.

 

[Gaber]

LOL. Gaber, you know nothing about my life. I’ll just leave it at that.

No, I don’t. that is why I stated it the way I did. Want to talk about it?

 

[cjmclark]

No, I don’t. that is why I stated it the way I did. Want to talk about it?

In a word? No.

Suffice it to say that the net result is that I have little patience for people who justify their lifestyle choices with the old saw “Jesus hung out with sinners so I can do what I want and how dare you tell me it’s wrong, you judgmental bigot.”

Jesus loved sinners. So also must we.

Jesus rebuked sinners. So also must we, in Jesus’ spirit, which was one of love and compassion and genuine concern for the welfare of others’ immortal souls. It’s the same spirit that motivates parents to tell their kids “No.”

Loving a sinner =/= tolerating their sin.

So take your pretty speech about hitting rock bottom somewhere where it might be useful. I personally find it insulting to everyone who found themselves there and still kept their faith and strove to live up to it.

 

[benjammin]

I think strippers can only be holy if they quit. Same for hookers unless they are in some sort of situation like the movie taken where they are forced into it

 

[atheistgirl]

but the behavior itself is objectively sinful.

No way.



The behavior or act of performing a striptease is objectively sinful

Of course it isn’t

If that’s the case, I am so going to hell in a handcart and so is my husband for watching me

Sarah x

 

[cjmclark]

No way.



The behavior or act of performing a striptease is objectively sinful

Of course it isn’t

If that’s the case, I am so going to hell in a handcart and so is my husband for watching me

Sarah x

LOL…well, Catholically speaking, to a point many things that are objectively sinful for single people to do are fair game for spouses to do.

With each other.

And no one else.

 

[LightBound]

No way.



The behavior or act of performing a striptease is objectively sinful

Of course it isn’t

If that’s the case, I am so going to hell in a handcart and so is my husband for watching me

Sarah x

C’mon Sarah…you know that doing something like that in the course of foreplay with your husband is light years away from a woman doing it for money, in a sleazy club, in front of a room full of men that will likely be paying for something “extra” from her in the “private room” later.
Stripping is nothing more than “legalized” prostitution…ask any vice cop.

Now, I probably sounded pretty “judgmental” with my above description, so let me add that I recall reading an article that mentioned nearly every “stripper” “exotic dancer” or call girl was sexually abused as a child or teen, and is usually acting out her lack of self-worth by performing in this manner. Most are hard-core drug addicts and need the money to support their habit. These young women need prayers and a way out of their lifestyle. There are plenty of non-denominational organizations out there, “in the streets”, that help these poor women…does the Church have anything formal in place?

 

[LightBound]

Stripping for money, whether it’s in a sleazy club or a fancy bachelor party is nothing more than “legalized” prostitution…ask any vice cop.

Now, I probably sounded pretty “judgmental” with my above description, so let me add that I recall reading an article that mentioned nearly every “stripper” “exotic dancer” or call girl was sexually abused as a child or teen, and is usually acting out her lack of self-worth by performing in this manner. Most are hard-core drug addicts and need the money to support their habit. These young women need prayers and a way out of their lifestyle. There are plenty of non-denominational organizations out there, “in the streets”, that help these poor women…does the Church have anything formal in place?

 

[cjmclark]

Stripping for money, whether it’s in a sleazy club or a fancy bachelor party is nothing more than “legalized” prostitution…ask any vice cop.

Now, I probably sounded pretty “judgmental” with my above description, so let me add that I recall reading an article that mentioned nearly every “stripper” “exotic dancer” or call girl was sexually abused as a child or teen, and is usually acting out her lack of self-worth by performing in this manner. Most are hard-core drug addicts and need the money to support their habit. These young women need prayers and a way out of their lifestyle. There are plenty of non-denominational organizations out there, “in the streets”, that help these poor women…does the Church have anything formal in place?

There are definitely lay ministries in various areas:

catholicsentinel.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=35&ArticleID=16989
hsof.net/
streets.org/
yourcross.org/prostitution.htm
catholicregister.org/features/item/13365-deacons-street-ministry-brings-hope-to-prostitutes-and-dealers-on-torontos-streets

And apparently a Pontifical Council for the Care of Migrants and Itinerant Peoples:

catholicnewsagency.com/news/church_issues_guidelines_for_pastoral_ministry_to_prostitutes_street_children_and_homeless/

 

[TimothyH]

In a word? No.

Suffice it to say that the net result is that I have little patience for people who justify their lifestyle choices with the old saw “Jesus hung out with sinners so I can do what I want and how dare you tell me it’s wrong, you judgmental bigot.”

Jesus loved sinners. So also must we.

Jesus rebuked sinners. So also must we, in Jesus’ spirit, which was one of love and compassion and genuine concern for the welfare of others’ immortal souls. It’s the same spirit that motivates parents to tell their kids “No.”

Loving a sinner =/= tolerating their sin.

So take your pretty speech about hitting rock bottom somewhere where it might be useful. I personally find it insulting to everyone who found themselves there and still kept their faith and strove to live up to it.

Loving a sinner is not tolerating their sin, but it is treating them with dignity and respect. That’s love. And no matter who the sinner is, no matter how bad the sin, we are to treat them with dignity and respect. That’s what loving the sinner is.

But people don’t want to treat porn addicts, strippers and prostitutes, thiefs, adulterers and homosexuals with dignity and respect. They want to hate the sin and rebuke the sinner for it, but wind up throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Many self proclaimed Christians beat people over the head with intolerance of sin but wouldn’t knock on the person’s door and ask them to go for a walk around the block and pray with them, or invite them to Bible study in their home, or offer to give them a ride to the doctor.

Jesus invited them to dinner.

-Tim-

 

[TiggerS]

Loving a sinner is not tolerating their sin, but it is treating them with dignity and respect. That’s love. And no matter who the sinner is, no matter how bad the sin, we are to treat them with dignity and respect. That’s what loving the sinner is.

But people don’t want to treat porn addicts, strippers and prostitutes, thiefs, adulterers and homosexuals with dignity and respect. They want to hate the sin and rebuke the sinner for it, but wind up throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Many self proclaimed Christians beat people over the head with intolerance of sin but wouldn’t knock on the person’s door and ask them to go for a walk around the block and pray with them, or invite them to Bible study in their home, or offer to give them a ride to the doctor.

Jesus invited them to dinner.

-Tim-

Comments have my vote!

I had resided in an area beset my dire poverty and social problems of every kind. Some of their stories were horendous and many had never known anything else but dire poverty and crime, social problems and from their parents and even further back in their history. They lived and were raised in a culture, including family environment, of dire poverty and crime.
It can be easy to be condemning when one comes from a sound background, but to walk a mile or so in their shoes, and our perspective may change.
Every person not only deserves but is required by The Gospel to be treated with respect and compassion, understainding, empathy. We are all beloved children of The Father for whom Jesus died. And it is my experience that people can become interested in Christianity when treated with love and respect, compassion - but when faced with condemnation and bigotry, they have a very poor opinion of same as it is practised and.little if any time for it and no wonder.

The one time Jesus acts on a social level (not on the purely individual level) is when He drove the money sellers out of The Temple and these were Jewish people (his own religion) who were exploiting poor fellow Jews by charging exhorbitant prices for necessary Temple sacrifices which were required for various Temple reasons. Probably also the Jewish priesthood were receiving taxation on turnover or sales - perhaps even charging for sellers to sell in the Temple region in the first place - perhaps even selling themselves. Jesus reacted with violent protest that His Father’s House “was a House of Prayer and you have turned it into a den of thieves” and by those of His own religion exploiting all including fellow poverty struck Jews.

We can forget that we are all sinners and differ only probably in kind of sin and also degree of same - and all sin has a personal and social affect and effect. As Pope Benedict pointed out, The Church has only the sins of Her own membership to fear. What makes my sin more acceptable than any other sin - my sin less of a social scourge than any other sin. My sin too has a social dimension.

 

[TiggerS]

As other posters have eloquently stated, a person’s circumstances don’t diminish the sinfulness of their behavior…only their potential culpability for the sin.

In the first part above, I think that there is confusion between what is grave matter, non grave matter - and what is sin.
A person’s circumstances can/may diminish the personal culpability for grave matter or non grave matter, meaning that there may/might be sin present or that there may not.
Refer to CCC

[1859](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1859.htm’) Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

[1860](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1860.htm’) Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

[1861](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1861.htm’) Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. **However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. **
**** 1862 **One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent. **

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

From this, one can make the case that being forced by poverty and circumstance to undertake sinful professions is committing sin without ‘complete consent’.

At the very least, I don’t think people should be quick to condemn. I’m from a country where poverty forces a lot of women to take up professions like that. It would do us some good to consider their situation.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

LOL. Gaber, you know nothing about my life and I see no need to publicly display details of it for your satisfaction. I’ll just leave it at that.

Well judging from your profile, you come from a country where your poor is our middle class. In all honesty, that can cast some doubt on how much you really know about what poverty is like and what it does to people.

Unless of course, you moved there after being raised in Mexico or sumthin’.

 

[cjmclark]

Well judging from your profile, you come from a country where your poor is our middle class. In all honesty, that can cast some doubt on how much you really know about what poverty is like and what it does to people.

Unless of course, you moved there after being raised in Mexico or sumthin’.

This assumes that poverty is the only form of suffering and is another assumption born of ignorance.

Did I miss somewhere where I said that we should crush prostitutes and strippers beneath our bootheel? All I have said is this:

1.) They engage in sinful behavior.
2.) Their culpability for that sin may diminish based on their circumstances, but the sin is still a sin.
3.) We are called to love them as fellow humans (as Jesus did) and to rebuke their sin (as Jesus did) with love and compassion. This isn’t calling them whores and stoning them in the street, this is trying to help get them out of their situation.

Yes, there are those who profess Christianity who are also horribly uncharitable people. I’ll thank anyone not to lump me in with them based on their own assumptions. You can be intolerant of sin without being hateful to a person.

 

[Gaber]

From this, one can make the case that being forced by poverty and circumstance to undertake sinful professions is committing sin without ‘complete consent’.

At the very least, I don’t think people should be quick to condemn. I’m from a country where poverty forces a lot of women to take up professions like that. It would do us some good to consider their situation.

Good points! thanks!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

This assumes that poverty is the only form of suffering and is another assumption born of ignorance.

Hey now, I didn’t say that. I simply pointed out one thing you said about not knowing what it’s like to be in their shoes. Again, I come from a country where women are more likely to be forced into that kind of lifestyle compared to a developed one.

You’re from a developed country. Therefore, that claim is kind of suspect because many developed countries have lost sight of what it means to be really poor. Not that they should be poor but I’m saying their progress and higher standards of living tend to be incomplete without (name removed by moderator)ut from those actually living in poorer nations.

Other than that, I actually agree with the rest that you have said.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Loving a sinner is not tolerating their sin, but it is treating them with dignity and respect. That’s love. And no matter who the sinner is, no matter how bad the sin, we are to treat them with dignity and respect. That’s what loving the sinner is.

But people don’t want to treat porn addicts, strippers and prostitutes, thiefs, adulterers and homosexuals with dignity and respect. They want to hate the sin and rebuke the sinner for it, but wind up throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Many self proclaimed Christians beat people over the head with intolerance of sin but wouldn’t knock on the person’s door and ask them to go for a walk around the block and pray with them, or invite them to Bible study in their home, or offer to give them a ride to the doctor.

Jesus invited them to dinner.

-Tim-

Excellent post. I totally agree. Remember, 1 Peter 3:15. We must use gentleness and respect when dealing with people (and remember that we too are sinners and might not be that much better ourselves).