Holy Strippers?

[PRmerger]

Your faith requires you to see and interpret according to your faith, not according to Reality. that is why it is called a “faith,” yes?

Gaber, this is a statement borne out of great ignorance.

I suggest you read the magnificent * Fides et Ratio *and then we can chat.

It’s obvious you haven’t quite understood Catholic teaching on what faith is.

And, then after reading that I suggest you read the sublime Veritatis Splendor, and after that we can chat.

 

[HelligUsvart]

In other words, the Catholic Church has no credible explanation as to why God permits physical and moral evil.

It’s all a mystery, that will be unveiled in the next life.

And that has to be taken on faith.

I think it’s interesting all the philosophizing around sin, moral evil and physical evil comes down to this - no one knows, and it’ll all become clear in heaven

Sarah x

But there are explanations, ones that make much sense too. Whether you want to hear those explanations and believe them, is another thing altogether.

I see no evidence for this.

None what so ever.

The school children and young adults I do some work with come from very difficult and impoverished backgorunds.

They are also very religious and church going.

Despite the poverty in their community, the church is thriving and the pastor lives a very good life, disconnected from the circumstances of his flock. How? They all tithe, even from the little they have, and they are all superstitious that if they don’t bad things will happen to them. Yeah, like some of their lives could be any worse for keeping that few bucks back

Their psychological processes are fascinating to watch. They actually dance with joy when the pastor rolls up in his new $150,000 car, with driver, because it’s evidence ‘‘God’’ is blessing him, and he’s their pastor Yet at the same time, they can’t put food on their table or new shoes on their kids feet They just don’t see the disconnect.

That particular church is not involved in any of the programs we are involved in.

We’re the ones providing training, introductions to employment, jobs, food, seminars, community projects, and much more, not that church.

Yet these kids parents will give that Pastor their last $20 every week, don’t contribute a dime to any of the community projects (and we don’t expect them to) while their kids need new shoes

The most ironic and funny thing about your post is that you have just proved from the post that you’re quoting, to be true! LOL.

You see no evidence that God helps those in need, yet you just stated how you and your organization are helping those in need. God utilizes all he can to help those in need, even if it’s through the work of atheists and other humans who he has created in his image, whether the people he is working through realize that or not.

 

[HelligUsvart]

Very simple really.

I don’t have a problem understanding bad things happening in this world, to anyone. I understand these things in the various contexts in which they occur.

I do have a problem in understanding these things happening, where God is introduced into the equation, a personal loving God, who has the hairs on our heads counted, and yet does not answer the prayers of the whole world in relation to Madeleine McCann, for example. A personal loving God who has promised that when we ask in His name, it will be granted.

I have a problem with that, because there is no evidence that I can see, that prayers are routinely or consistently answered, and certainly not in a way that would be objectively verifiable.

Based on the promise of God, this is a problem for me.

I’m sorry that this may indicated to you just how simple minded I am, but there it is.

Sarah x

Just out of curiosity, have you heard the story of Job? The man who had much faith in God, yet had the harshest life as well? Go look that up.

Now that I even think about it, you don’t even have to go as “obscure” as the story of Job, just look at Christ Himself, God’s only son. It was God’s will that the only reason for his only son’s existence was to save us and die on the cross.

By the way, notice how I’ve highlighted the “me” where you said that it’s a problem for you. Who are you? If not even Jesus Christ thought of himself first before others, who are you to put yourself first?

It’s not about what “we” want, it’s about what God wants. And until you are able to see things and understand them through this view, you will continue not understanding why evil exists in this world and continue to be troubled by it. I don’t believe you when you “claim” that you are at peace with yourself.

 

[atheistgirl]

God utilizes all he can to help those in need, even if it’s through the work of atheists and other humans who he has created in his image, whether the people he is working through realize that or not.

You’re late to the party with this ‘‘claim’’

I even started a thread about it some time back

Sarah x

 

[HelligUsvart]

You’re late to the party with this ‘‘claim’’

I even started a thread about it some time back

Sarah x

Oh a thread… looks like I’m doomed And just because you started a thread on the matter doesn’t make it any less true LOL.

Link?

 

[atheistgirl]

Just out of curiosity, have you heard the story of Job? The man who had much faith in God, yet had the harshest life as well? Go look that up.

I’ve read it.

I wasn’t too impressed with a personal loving God thrashing a man’s life, for a bet with the devil

Who are you?

Me.

If not even Jesus Christ thought of himself first before others, who are you to put yourself first?

I put may before me, every day of the week - my husband, children, family, many friends, my company.

I could sell up tomorrow and go live the rest of my days in luxury in Hawaii, if I only thought about myself. But I don’t.

you will continue not understanding why evil exists in this world and continue to be troubled by it.

I guess you missed the posts where I made it clear I understand perfectly well why there is evil in the world - so long as God is left out of the equation.

I can make sense of my world and the world we live in, so long as no Deity is invoked.

Once an all loving all caring all kind God that allegedly cares about us and loves us is introduced, nothing makes any sense. To me.

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

You seem to be claiming that it’s Real because it’s Catholic, not because it just IS.

Perhaps if you could offer the comments I made that make you think this.

For I have said nothing of the kind.

The condition called “created in the image and likeness” existed as a quality, if you will of mankind as such.

We are agreed that it was hinted at and foreshadowed by the pagans, but it wasn’t until Judaisim that this revolutionary concept was given a legitimacy.

It wasn’t invented by the Jews or Christians or anyone.

Right.

It was revealed to the Jews who revealed it to the Christians.

No one else allowed themselves that magnificent paradigm.

It was simply a fact discovered independently by many throughout the ages,

Made in the image and likeness of God is qualitatively different from “know thyself”.

Just as filial love is qualitatively different from agape.

 

[atheistgirl]

Oh a thread… looks like I’m doomed And just because you started a thread on the matter doesn’t make it any less true LOL.

Link?

Go find it if you’re interested.

LOL

You claiming God is working through me doesn’t make it true either. But if it is, great. The kids and young adults are getting the help they need from us, and if it’s God’s work, then I’m not remotely bothered about meeting Him on Judgement day After all, He’s working through me, so I must be the kind of person He approves of

I’ll stay as I am, let God work through me, not have to bother with any of the formalities of compulsary beliefs, live my life as I always have, and I still get into heaven - how cool is that

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

I guess you missed the posts where I made it clear I understand perfectly well why there is evil in the world - so long as God is left out of the equation.

Sarah! I did not know you were pro-life! :hug1:

I also missed the post that provided your explanation, sans God, for evil in the world.
Would you please re-post or offer a summary? Does it include an explanation for natural evils, such as earthquakes?

 

[PRmerger]

I mean you criticize me for not being up on contemporary RC scholarship,

Actually, I criticize you for not being up on your Catholic catechism/apologetics. I doubt that you could offer, from the Catholic perspective, any explication or apologia as to why we can defend Mary’s perpetual virginity, despite verses in the Bible that state that Joseph “knew her not until she bore a son” and describing the “brothers of the Lord”.

Could you do this (without resorting to Father Google)?

 

[HelligUsvart]

I’ve read it.

I wasn’t too impressed with a personal loving God thrashing a man’s life, for a bet with the devil

In order for faith to be sincere, it must be tested. God wants to test us and our faith, but obviously he also wants us to prosper and ultimately choose to be with him, through thick and thin. It’s easy to be there for someone when everything is going good and life is easy, that means nothing. It means everything and is a true testament to one’s character when they are also there for someone when it is inconvenient.

So there is just one answer to why God allows bad things to happen, but believing it is a whole new conversation entirely as I’ve already stated. At least you can’t “claim” that there aren’t any answers to that question.

I put may before me, every day of the week - my husband, children, family, many friends, my company.

Would you continue to put others before you if you didn’t have your husband, children, family, friends, and company?

I guess you missed the posts where I made it clear I understand perfectly well why there is evil in the world - so long as God is left out of the equation.

I can make sense of my world and the world we live in, so long as no Deity is invoked.

Once an all loving all caring all kind God that allegedly cares about us and loves us is introduced, nothing makes any sense. To me.

Sarah x

In other words, justification.

But out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for why evil exists in the world?

 

[HelligUsvart]

Go find it if you’re interested.

You claiming God is working through me doesn’t make it true either. But if it is, great. The kids and young adults are getting the help they need from us, and if it’s God’s work, then I’m not remotely bothered about meeting Him on Judgement day After all, He’s working through me, so I must be the kind of person He approves of

I’ll stay as I am, let God work through me, not have to bother with any of the formalities of compulsary beliefs, live my life as I always have, and I still get into heaven - how cool is that

Sarah x

You’re sorely mistaken, friend.

Your charitable actions are of God and God’s will, but you yourself may not be saved. He uses humans, as feeble and weak as they are to benefit those who are in need. It does not mean that the person who he is working through is saved, unless they themselves are doing it for God.

“Faith without action means nothing, and actions without faith mean nothing” or something to that effect.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ll stay as I am, let God work through me, not have to bother with any of the formalities of compulsary beliefs, live my life as I always have, and I still get into heaven - how cool is that

Sarah x

When you say Yes to the Divine Marriage Proposal, Sarah, you will “get into heaven.”

God is ever the Gentleman and will not force himself upon you.

So even if you do lots of good works, if you say No to him, as you have been doing all of your life apparently, then you will not “get into heaven.”

No one gets into heaven who says No. God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.”

 

[TiggerS]

Thank you. Honestly, the reason I didn’t get more into it with the poster you are responding to is because I have absolutely 0 patience to try to reason with someone who is determined to label others. I’ve tried it before, and it doesn’t work so I see no point.

Fair enough

 

[TiggerS]

You’re sorely mistaken, friend.

Your charitable actions are of God and God’s will, but you yourself may not be saved. He uses humans, as feeble and weak as they are to benefit those who are in need. It does not mean that the person who he is working through is saved, unless they themselves are doing it for God.

“Faith without action means nothing, and actions without faith mean nothing” or something to that effect.

“To whom more is given, more will be expected”. We might find that we who have the gift of Faith and of The Catholic Church will have much more expected of us than one who does not have these gifts. Why do some have Faith and the Catholic Faith and others not, we simply cannot know nor judge. It is not always (for we cannot know one way or the other) a clear rejection of The Lord and His Gospel in which a person is culpable. Only God can ever judge.

What will in all probability speak loudest to others of Jesus and His Gospel is the type of people that we are : “Preach The Gospel - and with words if you must” (St Francis of Assisi). Obviously, if we try to ram truth to others, they are probably not going to hold much if anything of what we say in esteem and as of value. Human nature. Truth without love can only ever be half the truth.

On Judgement Day perhaps the question that might be asked of us will be “How did you love?” moreso than “What did you believe?” This does not mean that truth is not an objective reality. Truth in all expressions of cannot contradict itself, or it ceases to be truth.

 

[atheistgirl]

It means everything and is a true testament to one’s character when they are also there for someone when it is inconvenient.

I know as well as, if not better, than a lot of people, what it means to have been there, no matter the cost. And I’m as fortunate as can be in that I have people around me who have shown me that committment too.

At least you can’t “claim” that there aren’t any answers to that question.

I didn’t ‘‘claim’’ anything.

I quoted what the Catholic Church says.

Would you continue to put others before you if you didn’t have your husband, children, family, friends, and company?

No, I’d use the last of my money to have a personality transplant and become a televangelist.

But out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for why evil exists in the world?

Vegetarian hamburgers

The death knell of mankind.

Sarah x

 

[HelligUsvart]

“To whom more is given, more will be expected”. We might find that we who have the gift of Faith and of The Catholic Church will have much more expected of us than one who does not have these gifts. Why do some have Faith and the Catholic Faith and others not, we simply cannot know nor judge. It is not always (for we cannot know one way or the other) a clear rejection of The Lord and His Gospel in which a person is culpable. Only God can ever judge.

Not being judgemental, just telling it like it is. We don’t have to hide our faith, just tell it like it is. I was trying to be helpful if anything, by not letting a person mislead themself. That would be wrong, wouldn’t you say?

We are not to despair, but we are also not to assume And assuming you will be with God is a tricky and risky mindset to have.

 

[TiggerS]

Not being judgemental, just telling it like it is. We don’t have to hide our faith, just tell it like it is. I was trying to be helpful if anything, by not letting a person mislead themself. That would be wrong, wouldn’t you say?

We are not to despair, but we are also not to assume And assuming you will be with God is a tricky and risky mindset to have.

Oh believe me, I do not assume that I will be with God:blush: - if your words are addressed to me. If God is as Merciful as I hope that He is, He might push me over the line - hopefully!
Not at all wrongful, to my mind, to point out that a person MIGHT be misleading themselves.

 

[HelligUsvart]

No, I’d use the last of my money to have a personality transplant and become a televangelist.

Personally, I don’t believe that you would still be as charitable. Prove it
And until you are actually in that situation, you don’t know if your personality would change either. In order to find out, you must be tested and prove it. Anyone can talk big. Until then, I do not believe you.

Vegetarian hamburgers

The death knell of mankind.

Sarah x

Ah, well I’m glad to see how seriously you take the existence of evil in this world. Clearly if it’s not a big issue for you, you shouldn’t be blaming God for it either.

 

[HelligUsvart]

Oh believe me, I do not assume that I will be with God:blush: - if your words are addressed to me. If God is as Merciful as I hope that He is, He might push me over the line - hopefully!
Not at all wrongful, to my mind, to point out that a person MIGHT be misleading themselves.

I wasn’t referring to you though. I was referring to atheistgirl, who said she will continue not to accept God and assumed she would be saved just because she does good deeds. I was simply informing her that it does not work that way. Where is all this judgement talk? How about getting all the facts down first before judging me?