Holy Thursday: Washing of the feet

  • Thread starter Thread starter Califman831
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Annabelle_Marie said:
And others have posted hear that there may have been clarification from Rome on that…we just don’t know. But there are those that treat it like Dogma…no?

I myself find it hard to believe that if Rome was SO against it…and the USCCB has had it on their website for so long…that they would not have done anything about it.🤷

For me…I will follow what the Bishop says as I do not see it as being an abuse especially when the USCCB says the same thing.

To use your analogy isn’t this like mom and dad saying different things?
Click to expand...
If you mean that there are no Church pronouncements with an always-and-forever prohibition on women having their feet washed during a liturgy, then while I stand ready to be corrected, I believe you are right. It is like saying that the current liturgical colors aren’t dogma. There are only certain ones allowed, that is unlikely to change, but that doesn’t mean it could never change. That is what I meant this question belonging to those thingst that are both authoritative and theoretically changeable, yet not arbitrary, either.

Considering that our archbishop is the chief liturgist for our diocese, I think this might be very much like mom and dad saying different things. Not a disagreement about the parentage of their children, but a difference on whether gifts are to be unwrapped on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day.
 
Califman831 said:
The fathers of the Second Vatican Council clearly stated that “…no other person, not even a priest, may add, remove, change anything in the liturgy on his own authority” [Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, no. 23]. Furthermore, according to Church law the Vatican must confirm liturgical legislation approved by the various national conferences of bishops. It is “the prerogative of the Apostolic See to regulate the sacred liturgy of the universal Church, to publish liturgical books and review their vernacular translations, and to be watchful that liturgical regulations are everywhere faithfully observed” [Canon 838.2].

stopmandatumabuse.com/drupal/VaticanIIHadToSay

So far my search has returned the 87’s usccb statement by those supporting the inclusion of women, yet when asked to provide more recent documentation there has been none.

I also enjoyed how the site stated the authority of the usccb on lay catholics.​

And this list is most assuredly not exhaustive. It seems the Pope took enormous pains, indeed, almost unheard of pains, to make clear that the USCCB and similar episcopal organizations have the following authority over any particular lay Catholic:
Code: 
Zero
Nada
Zilch
Zip
Goose Egg
Empty Set
Non-Existent
Completely Absent
A sounding brass and tinkling cymbal signifying nothing

In short, according to the infallible ordinary Magisterium, the teaching authority of the USCCB does not exist. Fifty cents and any USCCB document would not buy a candy bar, unless the cashier didn’t want to charge sales tax. The USCCB is a purely consultative body whose opinions aren’t worth rust in the scales. The only person a Catholic is required to at least listen to is his own bishop.​

stopmandatumabuse.com/drupal/USCCBAuthority
Click to expand...
I think you go too far. While the decisions of individual bishops or of bishops’ conferences are not binding on the Holy See, I would be extremely surprised if the Holy Father were to refer to the opinions of the USCCB as not being “worth rust in the scales”. He would not use language like that. The opinion of the conferences of bishops are not binding on the Holy Father, but they carry more weight than stray opinions floating in off of the wind. You imply that they carry less weight than that, that they could not, in fact, carry less weight than they do. That is, IMHO, an unnecessary and insulting way to state that the Holy See has authority over other bishops or bishops’ conferences.

The USCCB has more authority than a stray web site on the internet posted by no one knows who, of that I am sure.
 
EasterJoy said:
I think you go too far. While the decisions of individual bishops or of bishops’ conferences are not binding on the Holy See, I would be extremely surprised if the Holy Father were to refer to the opinions of the USCCB as not being “worth rust in the scales”. He would not use language like that. The opinion of the conferences of bishops are not binding on the Holy Father, but they carry more weight than stray opinions floating in off of the wind. You imply that they carry less weight than that, that they could not, in fact, carry less weight than they do. That is, IMHO, an unnecessary and insulting way to state that the Holy See has authority over other bishops or bishops’ conferences.

The USCCB has more authority than a stray web site on the internet posted by no one knows who, of that I am sure.
Click to expand...
And we must not forget that canon law gives the Conference of Bishops the right to make certain decisions for their own country and those decisions are binding on all bishops (postures during the Eucharistic Prayer for example) unless they specifically give the individual bishops the right to decide for their own dioceses (posture after the Ecce Agnus Dei).
 
EasterJoy said:
I think you go too far. While the decisions of individual bishops or of bishops’ conferences are not binding on the Holy See, I would be extremely surprised if the Holy Father were to refer to the opinions of the USCCB as not being “worth rust in the scales”. He would not use language like that. The opinion of the conferences of bishops are not binding on the Holy Father, but they carry more weight than stray opinions floating in off of the wind. You imply that they carry less weight than that, that they could not, in fact, carry less weight than they do. That is, IMHO, an unnecessary and insulting way to state that the Holy See has authority over other bishops or bishops’ conferences.

The USCCB has more authority than a stray web site on the internet posted by no one knows who, of that I am sure.
Click to expand...
No that was the site operators interpretation u read, not his holiness, I just found it amusing. I think i do harbor some ill will toward the bishops here in the united states if they are indeed disobedient to the holy see. Did you visit it the link because there are more citations on there, not just the site operator’s commentary? I wish there was a better site covering this issue.

I also decided not to attend mass tomorrow. I will take part in a procession to the church from a certain location, just like last year. We will carry a big cross with a child on top of it.
 
Miss Mass because of foot washing? Really? Miss the sacrifice of the Holy Mass… That to me is just unbelievable…
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
Miss Mass because of foot washing? Really? Miss the sacrifice of the Holy Mass… That to me is just unbelievable…
Click to expand...
Is it the Holy Mass or is it a good intentioned hybrid? As I said before if they messed with this part, what other parts have they changed?
 
Califman831 said:
I have emailed the diocese with the question, but so far no response. The diocese also maintains a website, as most do, where the question may be explained to all visitors.
Under what conditions was Cardinal O’Malley given permision, Do you have links to any documents in that case?
Click to expand...
If memory serves, some of the faithful got bent out of shape when he washed only men’s feet. In a very public way he asked the Holy See and they said that he could. To me that showed outstanding leadership. I’m fairly sure he would have followed the Holy See had it said “no.”

I am certain this could be Googled…
 
This is one of those wonderful traditions that has been absolutely ruined in my parish. For many, many years it was male-only and all seemed OK. In retrospect I am sure that sexist bigotry was burning with great vigor behind closed doors on this matter.

The pastor at the time (with the bishop’s consent) gave the approval to wash women’s feet as well. The (female) “liturgical coordinator” did her sexist best and choose 12 women (including herself) to have their feet washed. All 12 were the “priest wannabe” types. When word spread this was going to happen the pastor tried to insert a few males but none would agree given the circumstances. It was a really horrible situation. It was the last Maundy Thursday Mass I have ever attended at my parish.

Now the priest and a dozen laypersons wash the feet of anyone willing to have their feet washed. It takes about 20-30 minutes from what I understand. It’s become a rather sad joke. So because of sexism what was once a solemn little ceremony has become a joke. Sad.
 
Jegudiel said:
If memory serves, some of the faithful got bent out of shape when he washed only men’s feet. In a very public way he asked the Holy See and they said that he could. To me that showed outstanding leadership. I’m fairly sure he would have followed the Holy See had it said “no.”

I am certain this could be Googled…
Click to expand...
PIP ( People in the Pews ) got bent out of shape because they do not understand the what the washing of feet is all about , and as I have been reading replys here alot of you also do not know or you know what has wrongly be told to you.
 
The norm in the US seems to be…

Rule is in place.

Lay people who don’t understand (or don’t want to understand) complain.

Priest/Bishop either caves in or asks permission.

Rome sighs and grants permission whether it was asked for or the underlings just started out of disobedience.

Modernist lay people are happy because they got their way again – that is until they ask for women priests.
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
The norm in the US seems to be…

Rule is in place.

Lay people who don’t understand (or don’t want to understand) complain.

Priest/Bishop either caves in or asks permission.

Rome sighs and grants permission whether it was asked for or the underlings just started out of disobedience.

Modernist lay people are happy because they got their way again – that is until they ask for women priests.
Click to expand...
Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae :D:D:D
 
Here is a Holy Thursday, washing of the feet, story from my parish.

We got a new pastor two years ago. He was the first pastor there in probably twenty-five years who would not wash the feet of women. All went well - that is, until the resident feminists had enough. To make a long story short, they caused such a ruckus (including going to the local newspaper [believe it or not!]), that this year the pastor caved in and opened the washing of the feet to anyone.
 
Hey, thanks for posting that info for Monterey Diocese. That’s my diocese.

“The term Men is meant to be interpreted broadly” What a riduculous statement but not surprsing coming from Bishop Garcia.

For the past couple years, I attended Holy Thursday Mass at a parish where everyone comes up and washes everyone else’s feet. That activity takes 40-50 mins. I just can’t take that another year. I just sat in the back row praying the rosary.

Another Monterey parish announced that the priest is going to wash the feet of the children who are receiveing holy communion for the first time this Easter. I guess that meets Bishop Garcia’s interpretation of men. Homo Sapiens, perhaps?

I am just going to stay home tonight.
 
newguy40 said:
Hey, thanks for posting that info for Monterey Diocese. That’s my diocese.

“The term Men is meant to be interpreted broadly” What a riduculous statement but not surprsing coming from Bishop Garcia.

For the past couple years, I attended Holy Thursday Mass at a parish where everyone comes up and washes everyone else’s feet. That activity takes 40-50 mins. I just can’t take that another year. I just sat in the back row praying the rosary.

Another Monterey parish announced that the priest is going to wash the feet of the children who are receiveing holy communion for the first time this Easter. I guess that meets Bishop Garcia’s interpretation of men. Homo Sapiens, perhaps?

I am just going to stay home tonight.
Click to expand...
Isn’t there a monastery or religious priory of male religious you could go to for Holy Thursday, or even for the whole of Triduum? These communities not uncommonly allow laypeople to attend their Triduum observances, but I don’t think the oblates even participated in the foot washing, so no women there. At any rate, I’ve not been to that many, but in my experience these are the most liturgically excellent Holy Week liturgies I’ve ever been to. If there is a reason to be away from one’s own parish, I’d very much recommend seeking out on of these.

It’s something to consider…
 
You know what troubles me…that people would miss Mass because of the washing of some women’s feet. Miss Holy Thursday Mass…the most sublime Mass of the year!

It appears that we as lay people do not trust our Bishops or our priests?

It seems to me that the logic is…"I know it should be this way…our bishops are wrong…(even though we may not see all the correspondence they may have) …therefore other parts could be wrong…therefore I am ok to do what I please because it’s not how I think it should be. That seems sad and prideful to me.

As I said before our parish does allow women’s feet to be washed…as it is usually certain groups…ie…RCIA candidates, the Hispanic community etc. this is under the guidance of our Bishop. I don’t have a problem with it but even if our Bishop said …men only…I would not let it make me miss Mass! BTW our priest is very clear that this is about Christ being a model of serving not to be served and not a reinactment…to me this helps clear about any confusion that there would ever be women priests (of course there won’t be).

I find this all very sad…
 
EasterJoy said:
Isn’t there a monastery or religious priory of male religious you could go to for Holy Thursday, or even for the whole of Triduum? These communities not uncommonly allow laypeople to attend their Triduum observances, but I don’t think the oblates even participated in the foot washing, so no women there. At any rate, I’ve not been to that many, but in my experience these are the most liturgically excellent Holy Week liturgies I’ve ever been to. If there is a reason to be away from one’s own parish, I’d very much recommend seeking out on of these.

It’s something to consider…
Click to expand...
Thanks very much.

Yes. The Oblates of St Joseph has a Holy Thursday Mass tonight at 730PM. I will attend. I have attended NO Mass there before and they are reliably orthodox and reverent.

Thanks again for the suggestion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top