Holy Trinity

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excaliber

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Hi all

I am only just learning about the trinity. I have a question…It is OBVIOUS from scripture That Christ the Father And The holy Spirit are God.

However what I am woundering is this. Is it not also obvious that while bieng of the same nature of God…Christ serves The Father?

The bible says the head of man is Christ…and the head of Christ is The Father.

There are other scriputures where the Father SENDS the Son…tells the Son to Wait while until his enemys are placed as a stool for his feet…etc

So is it true that Christ serves the Father?

This makes the Trinity hard to explain to people that don’t believe
that Christ is JUST AS POWERFULL as The Father.

Sorta like you can be in the same human nature as me…but not be as strong…you know what I mean?
 
This is the best explanation of the Trinity I have ever seen:
catholic-legate.com/articles/antitrinity.html

In praying to Mary we must come back again to the point that there is no “competition” between devotion to Jesus and to Mary. Once we realize that she is our Mother, a Mother who leads us to God, to the Holy Trinity, we realize that devotion is a matter of understanding relationships.

When we realize that God is infinite love, we see this love expressed as a human Mother in Mary. All human beings long for the love of a mother and God Who has implanted this yearning in us gives us a Mother in Mary. We have a relationship with her on one level as mother and on another level we have a relationship with the Trinity, with God. She is the Mother who draws us closer to the God to Whom she is so intimately united.

Does a focus on Mary and the saints take us away from attention to God? The answer to this question is a question: Does attention to our closest friends and family in this world take us away from God? In both instances we see the love of God expressed through these other human persons. They enable us to appreciate His glory in newer and fuller ways. At the same time we should and can pray to Him without restraint.

If there is any confusion in prayer life and devotion we find it with the Fundamentalists. In real life they find it hard to focus on more than One of the Three Persons of the Trinity. That is why some focus on the Father, others on the Son and a third group just on the Spirit. Marian devotion, on the other hand, will clarify the distinctions within the Trinity while leading us to a real relationship with each of the Three Persons.

The infinite love of God is central to our Christian experience. In embracing Mary as Mother we enter more fully into this great Love. She loves us like she loves Jesus and we should love her like Jesus loves her.
http://www.mariology.com/content/view/9/28/
 
kepha1 said:
This is the best explanation of the Trinity I have ever seen:
catholic-legate.com/articles/antitrinity.html

In praying to Mary we must come back again to the point that there is no “competition” between devotion to Jesus and to Mary. Once we realize that she is our Mother, a Mother who leads us to God, to the Holy Trinity, we realize that devotion is a matter of understanding relationships.

When we realize that God is infinite love, we see this love expressed as a human Mother in Mary. All human beings long for the love of a mother and God Who has implanted this yearning in us gives us a Mother in Mary. We have a relationship with her on one level as mother and on another level we have a relationship with the Trinity, with God. She is the Mother who draws us closer to the God to Whom she is so intimately united.

Does a focus on Mary and the saints take us away from attention to God? The answer to this question is a question: Does attention to our closest friends and family in this world take us away from God? In both instances we see the love of God expressed through these other human persons. They enable us to appreciate His glory in newer and fuller ways. At the same time we should and can pray to Him without restraint.

If there is any confusion in prayer life and devotion we find it with the Fundamentalists. In real life they find it hard to focus on more than One of the Three Persons of the Trinity. That is why some focus on the Father, others on the Son and a third group just on the Spirit. Marian devotion, on the other hand, will clarify the distinctions within the Trinity while leading us to a real relationship with each of the Three Persons.

The infinite love of God is central to our Christian experience. In embracing Mary as Mother we enter more fully into this great Love. She loves us like she loves Jesus and we should love her like Jesus loves her.
http://www.mariology.com/content/view/9/28/
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I agree with the link…I use the family to illistrate the Holy Trinity myself.

However which one of the questions in my original post was answered?

In a family…the wife puts herself in subjection to the Father.
She is just as human…but choses to be in subjection.

Is this true of the second person of the Hly Trinity?
 
Hi Ex__,

In speaking of Jesus’ relationship to the Father, we must remember that Jesus is both God and Man. Whenever he speaks of submission, obedience and so forth, He is speaking of his mission on earth as a true man.

As the second person of the Blessed Trinity, he is equal in everything to the Father and the Holy Spirit. But, as He proceeds eternally from the Father, we sometimes speak of a hierarchy of origin, the Son proceeding from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son, and both the Son and the Holy Spirit, ultimately proceeding from the Father. This hierarchy in no way implies a difference in nature. It is just a description of the life of the Blessed Trinity.

Verbum
 
excaliber said:
Hi all

I am only just learning about the trinity. I have a question…It is OBVIOUS from scripture That Christ the Father And The holy Spirit are God.

However what I am woundering is this. Is it not also obvious that while bieng of the same nature of God…Christ serves The Father?

The bible says the head of man is Christ…and the head of Christ is The Father.

There are other scriputures where the Father SENDS the Son…tells the Son to Wait while until his enemys are placed as a stool for his feet…etc

So is it true that Christ serves the Father?

This makes the Trinity hard to explain to people that don’t believe
that Christ is JUST AS POWERFULL as The Father.

Sorta like you can be in the same human nature as me…but not be as strong…you know what I mean?
Click to expand...
I think the best passage to explain this is Phil 1:6-11. Jesus, even though He was in the Form of God or God did not deem Himself to be equal to the Father and humbled himself.

What Paul is saying is that even though Jesus in every way that makes Him is equal to the Father and to the Holy Spirit. But Jesus humbled Himself to His Father not because He is less than the Father but because He Loves His Father. See Perfect Love requires humility and to Love someone perfectly means that you exalt them over yourself. That is the reason that at the end of the passage it says that the Father exalted the Name of Jesus above every other name including His Own. Why? Because of the same Love that He has for His Son.

So in brief, The Father and the Son are perfectly equal as God but the Son humbles Himself to His Father and the Father exalts His Son because of Love.
 
ERose said:
I think the best passage to explain this is Phil 1:6-11. Jesus, even though He was in the Form of God or God did not deem Himself to be equal to the Father and humbled himself.

What Paul is saying is that even though Jesus in every way that makes Him is equal to the Father and to the Holy Spirit. But Jesus humbled Himself to His Father not because He is less than the Father but because He Loves His Father. See Perfect Love requires humility and to Love someone perfectly means that you exalt them over yourself. That is the reason that at the end of the passage it says that the Father exalted the Name of Jesus above every other name including His Own. Why? Because of the same Love that He has for His Son.

So in brief, The Father and the Son are perfectly equal as God but the Son humbles Himself to His Father and the Father exalts His Son because of Love.
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THAT’S THE VERY SCRIPTURE I WAS THINKING ABOUT.
you answerd my question very very well.
I am very happy because as of now I have no more questions about the Holy Trinity.

Last but not least. Is this compatible with the teachings of the Catholic Church…I don’t want to spread herasy???
 
This is compatable with Catholic Teaching. The Catholic church has always defended the equality of the Divine Persons. In fact, the Heresy known as Arianism is a form of Subordinationism (Inequality between the Divine Persons).

You kind of scare me though when you state that you have no more questions about the Doctrine of the Trinity. I have been studying this Doctrine for about 5 years and it seems the more that I learn the more questions I have.😃
 
ERose said:
You kind of scare me though when you state that you have no more questions about the Doctrine of the Trinity. I have been studying this Doctrine for about 5 years and it seems the more that I learn the more questions I have.😃
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Yes, you beat me to the punch. Pope Benedict XVI should still have questions on the Trinity. Why? It is a mystery beyond human comprehension. I’m going on ten years and I only realize how much more I don’t know.

I’m glad that the OP was satisfied for his initial question. But then he identifies as a Jehovah’s Witness and their faith vehemently denies the Trinity so this is major…God Bless…teachccd 🙂
 
excaliber said:
Hi all

I am only just learning about the trinity. I have a question…It is OBVIOUS from scripture That Christ the Father And The holy Spirit are God.

However what I am woundering is this. Is it not also obvious that while bieng of the same nature of God…Christ serves The Father?

The bible says the head of man is Christ…and the head of Christ is The Father.

There are other scriputures where the Father SENDS the Son…tells the Son to Wait while until his enemys are placed as a stool for his feet…etc

So is it true that Christ serves the Father?

This makes the Trinity hard to explain to people that don’t believe
that Christ is JUST AS POWERFULL as The Father.

Sorta like you can be in the same human nature as me…but not be as strong…you know what I mean?
Click to expand...
Jesus said that He and His Father are one.

Since God is infinite and we are finite and our intellects have limited means of comprehension we can not understand an infinite being completely. That does not mean we can not know anything about God. We just can not know everything about God. What we do know about God we know, because He has revealed to us some things about who and what He is.

For example in the Old Testament He reveals Himself as existence. I am. In the New Testament God reveals Himself as love. We know things about His nature. So we say God is merciful. That is not who God is, but what God is. So we see there is a difference between what a person is and who a person is. What we are is defined by our nature. You are a human person, because you have human nature. That means to walk, talk, breathe, eat. pray, sing, etc. You do human things. You are not a bird. You can not fly. You do not have bird nature. But this is about what you are not who you are. In the Old Testament we know who a person is by His geneology. Joe is the son of Tom, the son of Mike, the son of Harry.

The Trinity is revealed in scripture at the baptism of Jesus by John in the Jordan. The understanding we have is that God is three persons with one nature. You and I share human nature, but we are not identical. We look different and are not the same in many ways. The three Divine Persons are identical, because they share infinite nature. That means that they all must have the same attributes. If one had some attribute that another lacked the one lacking would not be an infinite person, God.

Since God is revealed to us as love we can learn something about God through our own experience of love. We know love can not exist by itself. There has to be a lover and a beloved. At Jesus baptism the Father’s voice is heard, “This is my BELOVED Son”. The Infiinite Father gives Himself to the Son. Love, gives love to love. There are three. Jesus says He is the way, the truth and the life. Truth is known. There has to be a knower, the knowledge and the known. They are three identical persons, but one, because being infinite they must be identical.
 
grandfather said:
Jesus said that He and His Father are one…

They are three identical persons, but one, because being infinite they must be identical.
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There is a relational difference between the three Persons while still retaining one infinite divine nature…So, as Persons, they cannot be identical or when the Son prays to the Father, He would be praying to Himself. They are** three distinct persons** in one divine nature…🙂
 
teachccd said:
I’m glad that the OP was satisfied for his initial question. But then he identifies as a Jehovah’s Witness and their faith vehemently denies the Trinity so this is major…God Bless…teachccd 🙂
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As a friend of Excaliber, I can tell you that he would be more accurately termed a “recovering” Jehovah’s Witness in the process of converting to the Catholic faith… 👍
 
Rolltide said:
As a friend of Excaliber, I can tell you that he would be more accurately termed a “recovering” Jehovah’s Witness in the process of converting to the Catholic faith… 👍
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Praise be to God!!!👍 👍
 
That was the last thing I needed to
combat anti trinitarians…especialy
Jw’s.

Of course I have more questions 🙂
Like Jesus sitting at the right hand of God…untill his enemies were mad a stool for his feet.
And when ST.Stephen had a vision of Jesus at the right hand of God.

What dose being at the right hand symbolize??
And where can I get references of this to share with Jw’s???
 
excaliber said:
That was the last thing I needed to
combat anti trinitarians…especialy
Jw’s.

Of course I have more questions 🙂
Like Jesus sitting at the right hand of God…untill his enemies were mad a stool for his feet.
And when ST.Stephen had a vision of Jesus at the right hand of God.

What dose being at the right hand symbolize??
And where can I get references of this to share with Jw’s???
Click to expand...
EX,

I am sure you will get lots of help with your issues here, but keep in mind the motive for engaging JWs or anyone in dialogue. We don’t need to win arguements. We hope to win souls. Proving someone wrong will not necessarily win them.

If someone betters you in an argument all that proves is you lacked answers, not that there are no answers. More people are converted by love than argument.

Blessings!
 
Yea because the term “Right hand of God” has a meaning I am sure.

psalm 110:1

Acts 7:55

Hebrews 10:12

I wounder what that means?
 
excaliber said:
Yea because the term “Right hand of God” has a meaning I am sure.

psalm 110:1

Acts 7:55

Hebrews 10:12

I wounder what that means?
Click to expand...
Mabey Im the only one interested in the subject because of my jw background.

But it must be in the bible for a reason, jw’s did not make it up…at least I think its the same in non jw bibles?
 
excaliber said:
That was the last thing I needed to
combat anti trinitarians…especialy
Jw’s.

Of course I have more questions 🙂
Like Jesus sitting at the right hand of God…untill his enemies were mad a stool for his feet.
And when ST.Stephen had a vision of Jesus at the right hand of God.

What dose being at the right hand symbolize??
And where can I get references of this to share with Jw’s???
Click to expand...
The right hand symbolism is in reference to authority. Jesus sit at the right hand of his Father and as such has the same authority as the Father.

One point to make here is that in the new Testament, God is a term used almost exclusively for the Father and Lord is used almost exclusively for the Son. I believe the reason for this is to create a distinction between the Father and the Son without reducing one before the other. If you look at the Old Testament, Lord and God are used interchangable in reference to God.

The right hand of God is defined best by St. John in the first few verses of his Gospel. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was WITH God and the Wor WAS God…”

Hopefully this helps.

Emite
 
ERose said:
The right hand symbolism is in reference to authority. Jesus sit at the right hand of his Father and as such has the same authority as the Father.

One point to make here is that in the new Testament, God is a term used almost exclusively for the Father and Lord is used almost exclusively for the Son. I believe the reason for this is to create a distinction between the Father and the Son without reducing one before the other. If you look at the Old Testament, Lord and God are used interchangable in reference to God.

The right hand of God is defined best by St. John in the first few verses of his Gospel. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was WITH God and the Wor WAS God…”

Hopefully this helps.

Emite
Click to expand...
Thanks
ofcourse I agree…the right hand of athority is equality.

But how did the church come up with this understanding?

In old testimont times…did right hand mean equality?

What can you give me to work with?
 
teachccd said:
There is a relational difference between the three Persons while still retaining one infinite divine nature…So, as Persons, they cannot be identical or when the Son prays to the Father, He would be praying to Himself. They are** three distinct persons** in one divine nature…🙂
Click to expand...
We teach that the Son refers to the human form or humanity of God’s Word or his Logos.

The Logos is part of the Father or God’s nature and is therefore equal to the Father as My word would be equal to me as it proceeds from me. The identity of the Son in separation comes from the humanity, not the deity of Christ…

The Deity is God, and respectively the WOrd of our Father and therefore the same person, deity, spirit as Him.
 
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