Holy water and holy candles

[chefmomster2]

I don’t think that valuing the additional benefits of the older holy water rite means the new rite is “wrong.” If this matter becomes devisive, I would be sad. But I don’t think it is.

I still dip my hand in all the fonts whereever I go and bless myself, even though I assume that most of them don’t offer explicit protection from demons. I don’t complain about the new water or belittle it. I just think words have meaning like father told me.

God works in His own way according to His divine Will. Implicit/explicit is an argument that can cause all sorts of dilemmas in our faith! For instance…where is it explicitly stated that it is wrong to pirate DVDs? Yes, we can imply such from many verses of the scriptures. But, it is implied. I can only imagine that in future years and with future technologies there will be far more implicit rules for Christian behaviors as mankind becomes less like the culture of the people of the early church.

See my other post about words and meanings.

 

[Rich_C]

Okay then, if water which had been blessed by the new rite was then blessed by the old rite, would this add more “protection”?

I’m trying to show here the problem I see with your approach to blessings.

No priest would ever do this, nor do I see why he should. Just get more water.

But hypothetically, I think the addition of exorcised salt (part of the old rite) would definitely add protection, yes. It is one of the biggest differences between the two, to my knowledge.

If you disagree with this, then you’re implying that an exorcism does nothing and has no purpose other than to awe spectators.

 

[Rich_C]

Think about baptism. In many cases a person baptized in any number of Protestant churches is accepted by the CC. The person is not re-baptized as if the original baptism was somehow inadequate. Presumably the rites were quite different except in the essentials, but there is no superior baptism… I actually believe the same is true of the two different blessings for water.

Actually, the person is re-baptized if the original baptism was somehow inadequate, so this is not a good analogy.

Unless the words (in whaterever language) “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” are used, the baptism is considered ineffective and is redone by the Catholic priest.

See? Words do matter.

 

[felsguy]

Okay then, if water which had been blessed by the new rite was then blessed by the old rite, would this add more “protection”?

I’m trying to show here the problem I see with your approach to blessings.

No priest would ever do this, nor do I see why he should. Just get more water.

But hypothetically, I think the addition of exorcised salt (part of the old rite) would definitely add protection, yes. It is one of the biggest differences between the two, to my knowledge.

If you disagree with this, then you’re implying that an exorcism does nothing and has no purpose other than to awe spectators.

Well, I do disagree with it. What I’m implying, actually what I’m saying directly, is I think that this idea of “adding protection” is borderline superstition.

 

[FAB]

No priest would ever do this, nor do I see why he should. Just get more water.

But hypothetically, I think the addition of exorcised salt (part of the old rite) would definitely add protection, yes. It is one of the biggest differences between the two, to my knowledge.

If you disagree with this, then you’re implying that an exorcism does nothing and has no purpose other than to awe spectators.

I disagree with your premise and I bless water on a regular basis.
It is the Holy Spirit that call upon to bless the water for our various uses. To imply the some how God does not know fully how make it holy and we have to specifically that He needs to do the exorcism or evil remains is a completely ridiculous proposal. It is proposing that God is limited in His power unless through the words of the clergy He is directed to what to do.
Dcn. Frank

 

[chefmomster2]

Actually, the person is re-baptized if the original baptism was somehow inadequate, so this is not a good analogy.

Unless the words (in whaterever language) “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” are used, the baptism is considered ineffective and is redone by the Catholic priest.

See? Words do matter.

Notice I said “essential elements”. “Essential” includes those words. My words were chosen deliberately. I am comparing acceptable forms of baptism, not acceptable to unacceptable. Among the acceptable all are considered equal despite differences in the rites. One is not better than another. Baptism is baptism within these rites.

Your premise gives the power of the blessing to the clergy. He determines by his choice of words how much blessing will be conferred. Ultimately it is GOD who blesses, not the human. These words are not a magical incantation.

BTW, salt is also commonly used in the modern rite.

Can you give some sources which would agree to your premise that the old version of the blessing of holy water confers greater blessing than does the new? I have been unable yo locate a single place where this distinction is made. Can you help?

 

[chefmomster2]

I disagree with your premise and I bless water on a regular basis.
It is the Holy Spirit that call upon to bless the water for our various uses. To imply the some how God does not know fully how make it holy and we have to specifically that He needs to do the exorcism or evil remains is a completely ridiculous proposal. It is proposing that God is limited in His power unless through the words of the clergy He is directed to what to do.
Dcn. Frank

Bravo! Couldn’t agree more!

 

[Rich_C]

Well, I do disagree with it. What I’m implying, actually what I’m saying directly, is I think that this idea of “adding protection” is borderline superstition.

You’re free to call exorcisms mere superstition. In that case, I can see why you would object to me saying there is any holiness in sacramentals at all.

 

[Rich_C]

I disagree with your premise and I bless water on a regular basis.
It is the Holy Spirit that call upon to bless the water for our various uses. To imply the some how God does not know fully how make it holy and we have to specifically that He needs to do the exorcism or evil remains is a completely ridiculous proposal. It is proposing that God is limited in His power unless through the words of the clergy He is directed to what to do.
Dcn. Frank

Deacon, when you frame the argument that way it does sound completely ridiculous. But I am not asserting that.

I’m sure you know more about all this than I do, so maybe you can clear up some things for me.

It seems like the logical end of your argument is that we don’t need to ask God for what we want, because He will give us whatever He wills.

Would you also agree that if you make a simple sign of the cross over someone’s rosary after Mass, God may use your quick rosary blessing to also bless their children, drive a demon out of them, or forgive their venial sins?

I’m not being snarky, just trying to see the logic in what you’re saying.

The way this has been explained to me by two priests I know was that the addition of the exorcism really makes a difference, and that in essence, God will give us what we ask. He is a good Father and wants us to ask Him for what we need, and He will give us bread not stones.

But what I hear you saying is that we don’t need to ask for what we need and there is no need to do exorcisms to get the effects of exorcisms, because God is so good, He just gives us everything whether we ask for it or not.

But that’s true, why does the Church have exorcisms? Or a book with hundreds of blessings?

By your logic, a simple sign of the cross over anything or anyone would confer all those hundreds of blessings plus an exorcism, all at once, right?

On Epiphany we got our house blessed. On Candlemas we got our candles blessed. Last month we had my wife blessed that God will send us children. Was it silly of us to ask for specifically what we hoped for? Should one blessing have done all that?

 

[felsguy]

Well, I do disagree with it. What I’m implying, actually what I’m saying directly, is I think that this idea of “adding protection” is borderline superstition.

You’re free to call exorcisms mere superstition. In that case, I can see why you would object to me saying there is any holiness in sacramentals at all.

I think you know thats not at all what I said and that you’re just being …? You stated a concept, I disagreed with the logic and the theology, you remain resolute. Time for us to move on and still each have a nice day.

 

[Rich_C]

I think you know thats not at all what I said and that you’re just being …? You stated a concept, I disagreed with the logic and the theology, you remain resolute. Time for us to move on and still each have a nice day.

Actually, I’m relieved. I really thought you meant it. I would never pretend to misunderstand someone to twist their words.

I’m fine with agreeing to disagree.

 

[SyroMalankara]

For anyone interested, please see this book:

The Blessing of the Waters on the Eve of the Epiphany: The Greek, Latin, Syriac, Coptic and Russian versions, edited or translated from the original texts:

archive.org/stream/blessingwaterso00churgoog#page/n6/mode/2up

Just in the Roman Church, there were two forms in use by 1890; the 1890 insertion from the Byzantine Tradition was attempted suppressed by the Decree of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, but somehow still made it’s way into the Rituale Romanum. There were also local variations, such as mentioned here:

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2010/01/blessing-of-epiphany-water.html

 

[FAB]

Deacon, when you frame the argument that way it does sound completely ridiculous. But I am not asserting that.

I’m sure you know more about all this than I do, so maybe you can clear up some things for me.

It seems like the logical end of your argument is that we don’t need to ask God for what we want, because He will give us whatever He wills.

Would you also agree that if you make a simple sign of the cross over someone’s rosary after Mass, God may use your quick rosary blessing to also bless their children, drive a demon out of them, or forgive their venial sins?

I’m not being snarky, just trying to see the logic in what you’re saying.

The way this has been explained to me by two priests I know was that the addition of the exorcism really makes a difference, and that in essence, God will give us what we ask. He is a good Father and wants us to ask Him for what we need, and He will give us bread not stones.

But what I hear you saying is that we don’t need to ask for what we need and there is no need to do exorcisms to get the effects of exorcisms, because God is so good, He just gives us everything whether we ask for it or not.

But that’s true, why does the Church have exorcisms? Or a book with hundreds of blessings?

By your logic, a simple sign of the cross over anything or anyone would confer all those hundreds of blessings plus an exorcism, all at once, right?

On Epiphany we got our house blessed. On Candlemas we got our candles blessed. Last month we had my wife blessed that God will send us children. Was it silly of us to ask for specifically what we hoped for? Should one blessing have done all that?

I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
We are talking two different things. We bless water for holy purposes, in other blessings, ourselves, baptism, at funerals, sprinkling rites, homes etc… In asking for that blessing upon that water, since it will be used for God’s Glory we trust He will indeed make it holy even if we only make a sign of the cross over it.

Other blessings are for specific reason to ask God for things we need or for protection or for specific purposes. The blessings are often written for the listener as that external sign of communicating with God. They have the same effect to make something into a sacramental for the use in glorifying God and to remind us of the work we must do to maintain an on going relationship and that God is with us.

An exorcism in the way I believe you are talking, is a specific action to drive out evil making use of a sacramental.
So in the blessing of your house, holy water and prayers of blessings were used to drive out evil and help you and your family to resist evil.