Holy Week Liturgy video -- what do you think?

[netmilsmom]

Well, netmil(name removed by moderator), I’m sorry that you feel this way. Such expressions are not really the norm in liturgy; keep in mind that the Gloria at the Easter Vigil really only occurs once a year and that no other moment in the whole liturgical year really compares to joy of realizing the truth that Christ is risen from the dead. Furthermore, such expressions, as chicago mentioned, are only acceptable because the culture around the university is so amazingly Catholic…I mean, virtually everybody loves the Lord and only desires to serve the Church in their lives. Most attend Mass daily by their own choice. So many have become priests, brothers, and religious sisters, and so many others are now raising children to be holy representatives of Christ in the world. These results are not seen too frequently.

What you are missing is that these innovations, sanctioned by the University, come at the MOST IMPORTANT Holy Mass of the year.
At my parish, it is very Catholic as well without the innovation and abuse. We have large Catholic families (14 is not unknown) and have many vocations. Why anyone would want to abandon their child and pay huge $$$$ to have this kind of exhibition during the most important time of our liturgical year, make me wonder what their priorities are.

Liturgically, we are not trying to disobey the rubrics or liturgical law. I assure you once again that if we were instructed to make changes, we would make them. Rather, many of these events in question are the result of the charismatic movement’s renewal of the university (which was virtually dead in 1974 before its revival). I know that the charismatic movement does not speak to everyone’s heart, but it is at least a renewal movement approved by the Church (both by the USCCB and the Holy See; representatives of the renewal have been invited to Rome for an audience with the Pope at Pentecost in both 1998 and 2006.)

Wonderful. A movement is a movement. That the University sanctions it to lead this time of the liturgical year, is appalling.
Lots of people get an audience with the Pope. Trust me, if I had enough cash, my family would have an audience with the Pope. And actually we are working on getting the cash before our opportunity runs out. Anyone with power in the church can stand there too. My pastor was blessed by JPII. It isn’t that unusual.

 

[VociMike]

Certainly possible, and if it is ruled so by the Cardinal (who has celebrated Mass in the Fieldhouse) or our local Bishop, I will gladly submit to the mind of the Church.

Do you really think that if somebody asked Cardinal Arinze if it was OK to applaud, whoop and whistle during the Gloria (or any of the texts of the Mass) that he would say yes?!

Of course, to address these questions the bishop and Cardinal need to be advised of them.

 

[cathsem]

What you are missing is that these innovations, sanctioned by the University, come at the MOST IMPORTANT Holy Mass of the year.
At my parish, it is very Catholic as well without the innovation and abuse. We have large Catholic families (14 is not unknown) and have many vocations. Why anyone would want to abandon their child and pay huge $$$$ to have this kind of exhibition during the most important time of our liturgical year, make me wonder what their priorities are.

Wonderful. A movement is a movement. That the University sanctions it to lead this time of the liturgical year, is appalling.
Lots of people get an audience with the Pope. Trust me, if I had enough cash, my family would have an audience with the Pope. And actually we are working on getting the cash before our opportunity runs out. Anyone with power in the church can stand there too. My pastor was blessed by JPII. It isn’t that unusual.

I can see that you are quite angry, and I hope that I am not pushing the envelope too far. But what you just said is not true. You have confused a papal blessing for a papal audience. Furthermore, on both of these occasions the charismatic movement leaders were INVITED by the Holy See along with leaders of other “new renewal movements.” The Catholic Charismatic Renewal also has a USCCB committee dedicated to it. It is an organized movement which has received ecclesiastic approval; that does not justify liturgical abuse, mind you, but I don’t believe that these actions are abuses, but rather reactions to the wonder of Easter. The principal priority of the University is to make people love Jesus Christ and, based on the reactions that I noticed after the Vigil (not to mention the hundreds of religious/priestly vocations to come from the university), it is successful.

As I have said before, if abuses are taking place and we are corrected by the bishop or a higher authority, we will make the appropriate changes. My only point in making these posts is that those people who organized the Holy Week liturgies are people who deeply love the Lord and His Church, not a bunch of arrogant, rule-ignoring liberals who are intent on destroying any sense of the sacred. Certainly some mistakes were made, but as a whole, I believe the liturgy was beautiful. And I am not alone; most (if not all) who were there agreed with me. At worst, some people were critical of a few elements.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Cathsem,

Noting that you are relatively new to the forum, you may not realize that anyone who espouses a charismatic preference for worship and expresses it to a traditionalist will incur the most uncharitable condemnation, if not in words … then in attitude. When I think back at my teen years, and look at the lives of many teenagers today, I have an extremely difficult time wondering why anyone would denounce a form of worship that is native to their culture, yet obviously devoted to Jesus. I watched the video, noting the age of the participants, and it was not an adult congregation. [The OP in posting the video, as you have probably guessed, was not looking for comments other than agreement, and seeking to shock and awe with more of … “look what they are doing to MY church!”]

From another thread on Cardinal Arianze’s recent address:

1. (4) Darkness is chased away by light, not by verbal condemnation. A higher liturgical institute trains experts in the best and authentic [theological]-liturgical tradition of the Church. It forms them to love the Church and her public worship and to follow the norms and indications given by the magisterium.

Unfortunately, verbal condemnations are rather common here, and are often without foundation. I’m sure you know that these forms of worship are not the piety of the traditionist, yet there is no room in their minds for anything that is foreign to their preference. You will see the word “abuse” and “innovation” peppered throughout many posts, whether or not the difference in worship is truly considered as such by the Magisterium. As long as it seems so to them, it becomes their reality, and no amount of logic or proof will enable them to accept you as a faithful Catholic who “loves the Church and her public worship.” [Arinze]

Thank you for your lovely posts, all of which show that the love of Christ abides in you with far more Catholic witness than I have seen in your opponents. “By their fruits…”

 

[VociMike]

[The OP in posting the video, as you have probably guessed, was not looking for comments other than agreement, and seeking to shock and awe with more of … “look what they are doing to MY church!”]

I am highly impressed by your powers of mental divination. But is it really polite to read my mind without first asking permission?

 

[netmilsmom]

I can see that you are quite angry, and I hope that I am not pushing the envelope too far.

There is a difference between unwarranted anger and righteous indignation. I’m not angry, I am resolved and sad that I cannot send my children where I would like, and in some ways because of their family, should be going. But perhaps because of the trends at FUS, in ten years when my first is old enough, I won’t have to worry.

But what you just said is not true. You have confused a papal blessing for a papal audience. Furthermore, on both of these occasions the charismatic movement leaders were INVITED by the Holy See along with leaders of other “new renewal movements.” The Catholic Charismatic Renewal also has a USCCB committee dedicated to it. It is an organized movement which has received ecclesiastic approval; that does not justify liturgical abuse, mind you, but I don’t believe that these actions are abuses, but rather reactions to the wonder of Easter. The principal priority of the University is to make people love Jesus Christ and, based on the reactions that I noticed after the Vigil (not to mention the hundreds of religious/priestly vocations to come from the university), it is successful.

Perhaps you don’t understand the blanket of Papal invitations. Because the USCCB HAS a committee dedicated to Charismatics, that committee along with other USCCB committes get invitations. The committee itself is being clustered.
catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=20047

“A Committee on Divine Worship would replace the current Committee on Liturgy and would have additional responsibilities currently borne by three ad hoc committees: national shrines, the charismatic renewal and church stewardship.”

As for this movement causing hundreds of vocations, that can be attributed to FUS not exclusively the Charismatic movement, which is waning in Steubenville, I might add. Just because the leadership WANTS it to continue, doesn’t mean the students want it. Check here…
msnbc.msn.com/id/9024945/site/newsweek/
Which goes along with what I have heard is the trend in Steubenville. Understanding that you may be very involved with the Charismatics, you may not see the big picture there.
As for the actions not being abuses and are just the
reactions to the Wonder of Easter, I could easily see what you say if the innovations came from the crowd, but the innovations were part of the organized event. We are not fooling anyone here.

At worst, some people were critical of a few elements.

That you heard.

 

[Joysong]

Sorry, Mike, I do not have ESP, but I can read your own words which were self-explanatory.

 

[VociMike]

Sorry, Mike, I do not have ESP, but I can read your own words which were self-explanatory.

Show me in my own words where I said I "was not looking for comments other than agreement, and seeking to shock and awe with more of … “look what they are doing to MY church!”]

I’ll save you the time. You can’t.

 

[netmilsmom]

I am highly impressed by your powers of mental divination. But is it really polite to read my mind without first asking permission?

 

[netmilsmom]

Show me in my own words where I said I "was not looking for comments other than agreement, and seeking to shock and awe with more of … “look what they are doing to MY church!”]

I’ll save you the time. You can’t.

Gee, I found this.

VociMike:

Yes, I have been to Masses at FUS. But I was asking for comments about what is seen and heard on the video.

No where near “look what they are doing to MY church!”

 

[slyboots]

I believe several folks on this forum are really put off by any contemporary (20th century) liturgical music.
While I am very moved by Palestrina, Bach, Handel or Mozart, I know there are many people that feel the need to sing from the heart these newer hymns. I think the psalms are lovely as Marty Haugen interprets the meodies.
When you sing from the hymnals in the pews of the usual Catholic parish do you feel stirred by the newer hymns as you may the traditional hymns Faith of Our Fathers, Crown Him with Many Crowns, Pange Lingua, and Hail Holy Queen? Or are you in a parish where these venerable compositions have fallen by the wayside? On the other hand, are you simply more comfortable singing traditional music because you know it by heart and don’t have to think about the words of adoration contained in them?
I am not happy with drums and dancing in the mass. I would love to hear more Latin. But I recognize our God can be loved equally by those who sing “Ashes” and by those who sing “O Sanctissima”.
If you are among the fortunate few who still have access to the traditional hymns, please sing out those beautiful hymns with joy and awe. For that is what these young people are doing with the music they sing.

 

[VociMike]

I believe several folks on this forum are really put off by any contemporary (20th century) liturgical music.

I would be genuinely surprised if you could find a single person here who is put off by any (which I take to mean all) 20th century liturgical music.

 

[Karin]

Dear Cathsem,

Noting that you are relatively new to the forum, you may not realize that anyone who espouses a charismatic preference for worship and expresses it to a traditionalist will incur the most uncharitable condemnation, if not in words … then in attitude. When I think back at my teen years, and look at the lives of many teenagers today, I have an extremely difficult time wondering why anyone would denounce a form of worship that is native to their culture, yet obviously devoted to Jesus. I watched the video, noting the age of the participants, and it was not an adult congregation. [The OP in posting the video, as you have probably guessed, was not looking for comments other than agreement, and seeking to shock and awe with more of … “look what they are doing to MY church!”]

From another thread on Cardinal Arianze’s recent address:

Unfortunately, verbal condemnations are rather common here, and are often without foundation. I’m sure you know that these forms of worship are not the piety of the traditionist, yet there is no room in their minds for anything that is foreign to their preference. You will see the word “abuse” and “innovation” peppered throughout many posts, whether or not the difference in worship is truly considered as such by the Magisterium. As long as it seems so to them, it becomes their reality, and no amount of logic or proof will enable them to accept you as a faithful Catholic who “loves the Church and her public worship.” [Arinze]

Thank you for your lovely posts, all of which show that the love of Christ abides in you with far more Catholic witness than I have seen in your opponents. “By their fruits…”

You know I find this whole post OFFENSIVE and peppered thoughout with such innuendos towards certain posters!

 

[_veritas]

cathsem, I have just one question for you - as a seminarian, would you say that if you (God-willing) are A) ordained a priest, and B) you have a parish, and C) you are planning your liturgies, D) knowing both the legal/historical “context” and the technical rubrics, and E) knowing that what you want to do doesn’t have either the intention of contradicting the context, nor will it *actually *violate any of the rubrics but that F) it is possible that some people may be either confused or led to believe this is the correct way if you do it - should you be free to do it and then wait to see what the bishop/Rome thinks of it?

Let me first acknowledge that I am not saying that you should NEVER do it anyway, you know (I’m sure) that like all “laws” from Rome, they are not supposed to be interpreted the same way as our super-comprehensive Anglo-Saxon legal codes – there is room for common sense and “pastoral sensitivity” (much to many radtrad’s chagrin) in the Roman (ergo, Vatican) model of law. I’m just concerned that there is a danger in having a general policy of “ask forgiveness, not permission” liturgically.

You may not really hold this “general policy”, but there do seem to be strong hints of it in all your previous posts - maybe its only a bit of defensiveness and not indicative of your real position. It just seems that your approach to what is “proper” liturgy is to bend the rubrics a little by merely not intending to disobey them (ala “if it doesn’t say we can’t… why not?”) and then proceeding to justify action X/Y/Z by saying, “well, let’s just do it and if the bishop doesn’t like it he can just say so. I’m Catholic first, so if I’m doing something wrong and somebody says so, well gosh, then of course I’ll stop!” Ok, but how about them barn doors…?

I’m not trying to be snarky or snide, I’m just trying to offer a gentle suggestion to all of us, and in particular to those among us who are to be our future (and current!) priests, to be mindful of maintaining the right ordering of our obedience, as well as allowing the idea of liturgy as being “entered into”, not created - whether it is a “fashion” or “spontaneous” - to in turn form our liturgical approaches.

 

[slyboots]

I would be genuinely surprised if you could find a single person here who is put off by any (which I take to mean all) 20th century liturgical music.

Perhaps I misunderstand you. So you think it would be difficult to find a single person who doesn’t like contemporary music? I know of many who dislike it intensely. And many others for whom it is very uplifting.
What was your meaning please?

 

[VociMike]

Perhaps I misunderstand you. So you think it would be difficult to find a single person who doesn’t like contemporary music? I know of many who dislike it intensely. And many others for whom it is very uplifting.
What was your meaning please?

No big deal here. What you wrote (but probably not what you meant) is that there are people here who dislike every piece of liturgical music composed in the 20th century. I very much doubt this, and I suspect that is not what you actually meant.

 

[Julianna]

I will offer a couple of my own comments now. In the first place,** this is just an ugly, a really ugly, setting to have Mass (and I have been there in person). It may be all that they have, but right from the get-go one has to get (mentally) past the chairs and the ductwork and the harsh lights and the supporting beams and all the other utilitarian trappings. ** Students at a Catholic university deserve much better. It’s the Mass, for goodness sake! Do students have class in such an ugly setting? Are their dorm rooms that ugly? Really, is there any uglier setting on the entire campus? Shouldn’t the Mass be held in the most beautiful setting on a Catholic campus? Oh, and what about kneeling?

Secondly, I really don’t like the screens. They become the center of attention, taking the focus off the altar. In this culture, where the screen is, that’s where our attention is. Get rid of them.

Finally, what the heck is with all that whooping and clapping during e.g. the Gloria? Why does the university tolerate such rock-concert behavior in a Mass?

Where ever two or more are gathered there I am in the midst.

(Now mind you, I didn’t say it)

 

[VociMike]

Where ever two or more are gathered there I am in the midst.

(Now mind you, I didn’t say it)

I don’t believe that the Church has ever understood these words to justify giving the faithful ugly church buildings. But think of all the money they could have saved over the centuries if they had.

 

[Julianna]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

When I viewed the video, I saw young people at mass, singing, participating and waiting for the Risen Lord. I didn’t notice them looking around at their “locale” and how “ugly” it may be. Their focus, was where it should be, on the Liturgy. It may not be your cup of tea…and this is what is really at the heart of the matter.

The young people there were happy they had a “place” to hold mass.

I seriously doubt the Upper Room was gilded and the table for the Last Supper was pure Tuscan marble. The Sermon on the Mount…the rock Jesus stood on wasn’t made of gold either. The people sitting there listening to him were not dressed in Sunday best, some were in rags. There were rich, poor, Jew, and Roman, listening.

These young people put their hearts into the Vigil Mass, and they did it without one oz. of gold or marble. They used their gifts of the Holy Spirit, to bring music, song, joy and praise to a very important day in the season.

They used what they had to work with.

I remember the teen masses in MA where I grew up, Grades 7-12 attended. There was an overhead projector, with transparancies of the songs. The kids had their own band, played all of the music. Paper cost money, and “mimeo” machines back in "72 were not like the Xerox’s of today. Father Devlin, only had one request, “no gum chewing”. We complied.

I think Cathsem explained it beautifully, with regard to reverence. All was not shown in the video.

 

[Karin]

As a parent I was seriously considering this school for my son (2 more years)…but if this is what a Catholic School has to offer my kids for Mass…No thanks I will spend the money somewhere else!

288. For the celebration of the Eucharist, the people of God normally are gathered together in a church or, if there is no church or if it is too small, then in another respectable place that is nonetheless worthy of so great a mystery. Churches, therefore, and other places should be suitable for carrying out the sacred action and for ensuring the active participation of the faithful. Sacred buildings and requisites for divine worship should, moreover, be truly worthy and beautiful and be signs and symbols of heavenly realities
nccbuscc.org/liturgy/current/chapter5.shtml