Holy Week Liturgy video -- what do you think?

[palmas85]

**I am curious if either one of you has ever been to Easter Vigil at Franciscan? OR to any mass there for that matter…WHile i don’t particularly like the charismatic movement I find what FUS does extremely admirable.

It is one of the truly orthodox schools for THeology in the US and at least they took an oath to the Magesterium.

**And whoever filmed that is lucky FUS doesn’t know it exists because it’s illegal to film on campus without express permission of the university and that person has to get a release form for everyone in the video. ****

I’m not entirely sure that this is correct Normally filming done in the public domain, of which a public celebration of the Mass would probably be, is legal and has been upheld through numerous court cases going all the way to the Supreme Court… Written releases from those filmed would not be required, except in certain limited circumstances. . This boils down to an issue of Expectation of Privacy. If you are at a public event you really have no reasonable expectation of privacy so you can be photographed, filmed etc.

If the event was private and only certain people could attend, and someone snuck in and filmed, that could be construed as trespassing, but since the filming appeared to be done in the open with no one objecting to it I doubt that was the case.

Another example would be if the Campus has a clearly worded restriction of filming on Campus period. I could find no such restriction at this particular University. . Of course they could have one somewhere that I couldn’t find but even if there was one, I’m not sure on the “illegality” of the action under the laws of Steubenville or of Ohio, which would prevail for criminal prosecution. Of course, The University may have some recourse under an administrative action

However, I do think that the wording used in the post was meant primarily to intimidate and or frighten the photographer and possibly get him to withdraw the clip from viewing. In this case I sincerely doubt the poster was concerned for the well being of the photographer or of the University.

 

[netmilsmom]

Ya, I was actually enjoying the first exchanges with brother and cathsem, then all heck broke lose brother has always proved himself to be a charitable cradle. He gives traditionalists a nice name. I think he gets the whole how to be a Christian.

At Post 44 things broke now. Before that the discussion was about the video, not the person who posted it.
Perhaps someone on the innovators side could stop making it personal all the time?
You are more reasonable and while we don’t see eye to eye liturgically, you don’t drop in just to insult people on the threads. Go back and look. This post was not about one of the usual suspects.

Joysong:

The OP in posting the video, as you have probably guessed, was not looking for comments other than agreement, and seeking to shock and awe with more of … “look what they are doing to MY church!”

 

[Karin]

At Post 44 things broke now. Before that the discussion was about the video, not the person who posted it.
Perhaps someone on the innovators side could stop making it personal all the time?
You are more reasonable and while we don’t see eye to eye liturgically, you don’t drop in just to insult people on the threads. Go back and look. This post was not about one of the usual suspects.

 

[VociMike]

I think this thread is fizzling out now, but I thought I’d summarize why I posted the video (which I found while poking around youtube, I did not make it myself). The video was made by a 25 year old man who lives in Steubenville. It is not clear to me if the person who made the video had any particular agenda behind making and posting the video.

In the first place, to be clear, I have not accused FUS of being unfaithful to the Church. In fact, I have said that FUS is an orthodox Catholic university. The one critical comment I did make about FUS is that it is a terrible shame, possibly bordering on scandal, that a Catholic university holds Mass in what is probably the ugliest setting on the entire campus.

I did not immediately say what I thought was wrong on the video since I didn’t want to “color” the discussion at the start. By post #21 I had offered my own comments on the video. I never questioned the faith or sincerity of those in the video. BTW, I also never said anything about the music, though some assumed I was being critical of the music.

My strongest criticism was, and is, of the clapping, whooping and whistling that occur in two places on the video during the Mass itself. I consider this to be intolerable self-indulgence. I often attend Mass with a sizeable population of students and they would never, ever think of behaving in that fashion at Mass. I don’t think any amount of sincerity or love of Christ justifies such behavior.

 

[Rykell]

Voci-Mike:

The video was made by a 25 year old man who lives in Steubenville. It is not clear to me if the person who made the video had any particular agenda behind making and posting the video.

Not clear about an agenda? It is utterly clear. Zooming in on particular actions tells me the photographer wanted to make absolutely sure the viewer “got it.” When anyone looks at his accompanying film at the monastery, it is not difficult to recognize why he is so appalled, given his preference for the traditional rite. And it is not difficult to recognize the agenda of one who promotes the video, suggesting concurrence with the photographer.

I agree with others that the joy on these young faces is electric! Typical of that age group is an inclination for their celebrations to be far more upbeat than in a cloistered monastic setting. Does that condemn it? Does that mean it is wrong?

My grandmother would not be comfortable there, but my friends would be grateful to express their praise in more free expressions typical of this age group. I propose that you do a study on child psychology and development, and show me where a young adult is going to be attracted to a contemplative mode of worship. Not. And the church is understanding and permits liturgies adapted to them, of course with specific rubrics that you may find offensive and not your mode of worship.

It is especially disrespectul and slanderous to imply that the clergy (and there were many in the video) are all introducing and permitting liturgies that would not be in accord with the rubrics for “teens.” I would like to meet these same young adults when they reach their 50’s and see if their mode of celebration is far different than when they were 20. I’ll bet the love for the liturgy that was imparted to them by their association there will remain, but change in form of outward expression.

 

[netmilsmom]

I would like to meet these same young adults when they reach their 50’s and see if their mode of celebration is far different than when they were 20. I’ll bet the love for the liturgy that was imparted to them by their association there will remain, but change in form of outward expression.

But who says the same Liturgy will be offered? They may not want to head out to a LifeTeen mass in their 50’s.

My parish was established in 1929. We have remained traditional with an Historic NO like EWTN. People who have been teens, married and raised kids in our parish are wonderfully devout. Ask how many young people WE have for our solemn and slow NO. The church is packed and we are a very young (in age of attendance) parish. Midnight Holy Mass at Christmas was literally out the door.

Young people don’t need fluff to learn to appreciate the liturgy. They need meat and potatoes.

 

[Karin]

Young people don’t need fluff to learn to appreciate the liturgy. They need meat and potatoes.

[SIGN]**AMEN!!! **[/SIGN]

 

[Rykell]

Maria:

There are 3 other churches in the area that he could go to if he doesn’t like the Charismatic movement (which is what I did, St. Peter’s is a great church!) or if he has a car he could go to Latin Mass every Sunday in Pittsburgh .

With this in mind, the notable facts are: that there was a huge crowd that opted to celebrate in the campus facility. There had to be a very good reason they chose not to go elsewhere; e.g., a lawful personal preference for this liturgy.

You may deem it was solely for fluff, and hidden within your assertion is a subtle note that there were no “meat and potatoes.” I’m sure you believe this, even though you have no sound reason for it. Apparently the priests are revered for their homilies and inspiration for the youth there, plus a sense of community with whom they feel at home.

You misunderstood my meaning about wanting a different setting when one reaches their 50’s. I intended to point out that “no,” they would in all probability NOT want to attend the mass of their youth. For that very reason, some of the older posters in this thread are offended, yet look at their age! Similarly, these young adults may not be at all comfortable with children’s liturgies, yet I doubt they would come to a forum like this and depict them in an unfavorable light, calling them “fluff.”

It all comes down to why is everyone expected to go to the ETWN-type mass you love so much? You vocally have little tolerance for any other legitimate forms of worship the church permits for others, as evidenced in so many of your posts. It is disheartening to say the least and keep my tone charitable.

 

[VociMike]

It all comes down to why is everyone expected to go to the ETWN-type mass you love so much?

Or maybe just the 99.999% of Masses where the participants don’t clap, whoop and whistle while reciting the texts of the Mass?

 

[maria29]

palmas85:
I’m not entirely sure that this is correct Normally filming done in the public domain, of which a public celebration of the Mass would probably be, is legal and has been upheld through numerous court cases going all the way to the Supreme Court… Written releases from those filmed would not be required, except in certain limited circumstances. . This boils down to an issue of Expectation of Privacy. If you are at a public event you really have no reasonable expectation of privacy so you can be photographed, filmed etc.

If the event was private and only certain people could attend, and someone snuck in and filmed, that could be construed as trespassing, but since the filming appeared to be done in the open with no one objecting to it I doubt that was the case.

Another example would be if the Campus has a clearly worded restriction of filming on Campus period. I could find no such restriction at this particular University. . Of course they could have one somewhere that I couldn’t find but even if there was one, I’m not sure on the “illegality” of the action under the laws of Steubenville or of Ohio, which would prevail for criminal prosecution. Of course, The University may have some recourse under an administrative action

However, I do think that the wording used in the post was meant primarily to intimidate and or frighten the photographer and possibly get him to withdraw the clip from viewing. In this case I sincerely doubt the poster was concerned for the well being of the photographer or of the University.

I used to attend FUS and work there in PR as well as Comm Arts, unless the policy has changed in the last 3-5 years we had to get a release from every one we filmed unless it was for an approved FUS magazine, show etc. ANd since there were minors shown in the film no matter that its public domain you still need parental permission!

 

[maria29]

I think this thread is fizzling out now, but I thought I’d summarize why I posted the video (which I found while poking around youtube, I did not make it myself). The video was made by a 25 year old man who lives in Steubenville. It is not clear to me if the person who made the video had any particular agenda behind making and posting the video.

This is one of the biggest problems that i have with YouTube being used for filming abuses. We don’t know the agendas of people and secondly, we don’t know the accurateness of the items. Being a video editor and graphic artist I can take a photograph or video of someone/something and total twist it into something its not supposed to be;

In the first place, to be clear, I have not accused FUS of being unfaithful to the Church. In fact, I have said that FUS is an orthodox Catholic university. The one critical comment I did make about FUS is that it is a terrible shame, possibly bordering on scandal, that a Catholic university holds Mass in what is probably the ugliest setting on the entire campus.

I totally agree that’s one of FUS main problems and I wish they could raise more money

did not immediately say what I thought was wrong on the video since I didn’t want to “color” the discussion at the start. By post #21 I had offered my own comments on the video. I never questioned the faith or sincerity of those in the video. BTW, I also never said anything about the music, though some assumed I was being critical of the music.

My strongest criticism was, and is, of the clapping, whooping and whistling that occur in two places on the video during the Mass itself. I consider this to be intolerable self-indulgence. I often attend Mass with a sizeable population of students and they would never, ever think of behaving in that fashion at Mass. I don’t think any amount of sincerity or love of Christ justifies such behavior.

I always disliked this part of FUS neither did i ever participate in the Festival of Praise for the same reason. But at the same time I respect that these people love God and its great to be around some many of your peers who want to serve the Church

 

[Rykell]

I see that you live in Naples, Fl, which tells me you are probably a retiree. Certainly, I can appreciate how a person of your age would find this liturgy offensive, yet you are free to attend a subdued liturgy of your choice, aren’t you? But consider these words of our Pope which point out the need for cultural adaptation (which would also pertain to adaptation for youth masses, for which there ARE specific rubrics):

Some celebrations were marked by adaptation. For the opening and closing of the continental Synods for Africa, Asia and Oceania, the Eucharistic celebrations were enriched by elements proper to those peoples. The Holy Father himself has stressed the importance of including various cultural elements in those celebrations: I am also deeply grateful to the working group which so carefully prepared the Eucharistic liturgies for the opening and closing of the Synod. The group, which included theologians, liturgists and experts in African chants and musical instruments, ensured, in keeping with my wishes, that these celebrations would have a distinctly African character.

More recently, for the Eucharistic celebration for the beatification of three great missionaries on 5 October 2003, the following cultural elements were inserted: members of the faithful from different parts of the world accompanied the Book of the Gospels with flowers and incense; as a sign of veneration for the Gospel a ceremonial umbrella was used, typical of the culture of various Asian countries and some regions of Africa; following the proclamation of the Gospel groups of the faithful representing different regions of the world venerated the Book of the Gospels in a way typical of their particular culture; at the presentation of the gifts, the offerings for the sacrifice were carried to the Holy Father in the traditional African fashion; and lastly, the sung Amen following the doxology at the end of the Eucharistic prayer was accompanied by a liturgical rite, the “Arati”, which is part of Indian culture.

vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/2004/documents/ns_lit_doc_20040202_liturgia-bellezza_en.html

I’m sure you can see how differently the liturgy can be celebrated, adding other elements that might send shockwaves to those not familiar with what has been lawfully prescribed.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

MODERATOR CAUTION:

Folks, please review posts prior to sending and remove from them all personalized remarks. Stay with issues not the posters.

At the moment in time, this thread is going…going…and if the personalization doesn’t cease, will be Gone.

 

[VociMike]

I see that you live in Naples, Fl, which tells me you are probably a retiree. Certainly, I can appreciate how a person of your age would find this liturgy offensive, yet you are free to attend a subdued liturgy of your choice, aren’t you?

Your guess is reasonable, but quite inaccurate. And whether I am free to attend liturgies is not the question. The question is whether clapping, whooping and whistling is appropriate behavior during the Mass, not even e.g. during the homily, but during the very texts of the Mass. And I am astonished that some people think the answer is “yes”.

But consider these words of our Pope which point out the need for cultural adaptation (which would also pertain to adaptation for youth masses, for which there ARE specific rubrics):

In the first place, I reject the notion that this was a youth Mass. Most students go home for Easter break. It was at best a mixed Mass. But that is really neither here nor there. The fact is, clapping, whooping and whistling is not a part of the American Catholic youth culture at Mass. The proof is simply the 99.999% of Masses held in America where such behavior does not occur. To claim “the culture” when “the culture” does not actually engage in the behavior under discussion makes we wonder if the real goal is to justify this behavior via any argument possible.

 

[Rykell]

I’m sorry for assuming you were a retiree, but your profile does indicate that you are rather elderly, and it is understandable that you would not like this type of liturgy. I am a little past this age and it is not my inclination either.

In the first place, I reject the notion that this was a youth Mass

To be honest, I still saw in the video that the majority in the assembly were young adults, not middle-aged and/or elderly. Maybe you know from other sources that it was otherwise? I would like to hear Cathsem’s opinion on this. Given that you are correct, it was still a charismatic mass for the most part, and people who attend are well aware of the nature of the celebrations. Otherwise, as Maria said, they can attend one of the other 3 churches. Steubenville has a long history of this form of mass, and it is pretty widely known – even to the photographer. I have to wonder why he was there?

That 99.99% of the nation’s masses are free from clapping is undisputable. Although I’m not a charismatic nor attend their liturgies, I have heard of Fr. Scanlan, who IS charismatic and knows what is permitted and what is not. If you believe this was inappropriate, I hope you would email him for clarification and get back to us in this thread. None of us have any power to to anything whatsoever, other than agree or disagree with your feelings. For the moment, it is simply your astonishment based on the video.

I’m not putting faith in the fact that applause in a charismatic mass is forbidden until I hear from someone in authority, as Cathsem suggested, too. Obviously, it is not something we do in our regular parish liturgies. I’m not even sure it is forbidden in children’s liturgies for very special celebrations out of the norm such as this one was.

In listening to the tape, most of what I heard was clapping with joy as their expression, and only one fairly faint whistle, which was not very tasteful, I agree. In an immense crowd such as that there will be offenders, but the 99.99% who did not whistle, knew better. Possibly, Fr. Scanlan reprimanded this afterwards, who knows? Should he have stopped the liturgy with a reprimand to one offender? I would appreciate feedback from others who attended the Pope’s World Youth Day liturgies concerning whether or not an occasional whistle was issued – and for that matter, clapping. Yet these were not of the very special celebratory nature of Palm Sunday or Easter as in the video.

 

[palmas85]

I used to attend FUS and work there in PR as well as Comm Arts, unless the policy has changed in the last 3-5 years we had to get a release from every one we filmed unless it was for an approved FUS magazine, show etc. ANd since there were minors shown in the film no matter that its public domain you still need parental permission!

Hi. Having worked for the University, you would have fallen under guidelines that would not in fact affect everyone else. Your photography or filming, would have been done as a representative of the University, is that not the case? As such, a release, if required, was more than likely to protect the University from any civil action that may have arisen although most universities do require that people who object to having their likeness used must notify the University of that. Many if not all universities routinely film both students and activities on the campus for promotional activities. The following from Johns Hopkins University is typical of University policies on filming.

The Johns Hopkins University reserves the right from time to time to film or take photographs of faculty, staff, and students engaged in teaching, research, clinical practices, and other activities, as well as casual and portrait photography or film. These photographs and films will be used in such publications as catalogs, posters, advertisements, recruitment and development materials, as well as on the university’s Web site, for various videos, or for distribution to local, state, or national media for promotional purposes. Classes will be photographed only with the permission of the faculty member.

Such photographs and film-including digital media-which will be kept in the files and archives of Johns Hopkins University, will remain available for use by the university without time limitations or restrictions. Faculty, students, and staff are made aware by virtue of this policy that the university reserves the right to alter photography and film for creative purposes.

**Faculty, students, and staff who do not want their photographs used in the manner(s) described in this policy statement should contact **the Johns Hopkins University Office of Communications and Public Affairs at 443-287-9900.

Faculty and students are advised that persons in public places are deemed by law to have no expectation of privacy and are subject to being photographed by third parties. Johns Hopkins University has no control over the use of photographs or film taken by third parties, including, without limitation, the news media covering university activities.

True, Steubenville may have a more restrictive policy on filming and being a private institution the University does have the right to regulate such things, and you would probably know that better than I. . But even if the University had a rule prohibiting all filming by third parties, a violation of that policy would be a civil action not a criminal one, except possibly as in the example I gave earlier an outsider was filming and the University charged him with trespassing.

I hate to tell you but children do not have a greater expectation of privacy than do adults so, no, permission or a release would not normally be required, except if the video film or photographs were to be used commercially, and even then not in every case. Heck you can sit outside a playground and film all day long. As long as you don’t use the film for pornography or some other such thing you have broken no law whatsoever.

I’m sorry but that is just the way the law is. This whole youtube explosion has taken the world by storm and will undoubtedly result in new case law in the future, but as for now, no criminal law has been violated by filming this video or even in posting it.

What is your real objection here? Do you honestly object to the Mass being filmed as a matter of principle or do you object to the fact that the poster may or may not have wanted to put down this particular type of Mass?

As an aside, I do object to the filming of Masses as a general rule, although for some cases I can see the benefits of filming one.

I will reiterate I believe that your statements were made to intimidate and frighten the poster with the idea that possible criminal action could be taken against him. Why else would you bring it up? That sort of thing should best be left out of these forums in my opinion. Blatant attempts at intimidation are bad things to get involved in.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

I could not quote the entire quote above, but to give it reference, I have included a snippet here:

But consider these words of our Pope which point out the need for cultural adaptation (which would also pertain to adaptation for youth masses, for which there ARE specific rubrics):

“…The group, which included theologians, liturgists and experts in African chants and musical instruments, ensured, in keeping with my wishes, that these celebrations would have a distinctly African character…”

I’m sure you can see how differently the liturgy can be celebrated, adding other elements that might send shockwaves to those not familiar with what has been lawfully prescribed.

Yeah. A distinctly African character belongs in…Africa.

And, here is what Cardinal Arinze had to say about such things, in *Liturgical Norms and Liturgical Piety - April 8, 2005 *(A speech that can be read, but was never delivered due to the sickness and death of Pope John Paul II. Cardinal Arinze, in point 8 states: Is it true that in many parts of Africa and Asia there may be a cultural habit of graceful body movement which, with due study and approval of the local Church, may go down well within a liturgical celebration. The Ethiopian rite has known graceful rhythmical movements and the procession for the Gospel. The Roman Rite Mass approved for the Democratic Republic of the Congo has similar entry movements.
*
*

•  	**But this is very different from what the ordinary person in Europe or North America thinks of when the concept of dance is evoked. Can we blame people who associate dance with Saturday evening, ballroom, theater or simply, innocent enjoyment? The liturgical books approved by the bishops and the Holy See for Europe and North America understandably do not authorize the importation of dance into church, let alone the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. (see the article in the official bulletin of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments: Notitiae   106-107, June-July 1975, pp. 202-205. Editor's note: this article   is available on the Adoremus web site at [www.adoremus.org/Dance.html](http://www.adoremus.org/Dance.html))*

To my mind, it also applies for anything that could be construed as “dance”, such as running around with tambourines and streamers.

I’ll close this post with something else the good cardinal pointed out near the end of the speech:

Interior prayer and sacrifice have priority. Hence the importance in liturgical celebrations of quiet preparation, silence, reflection, listening and personal prayer. “A merely external observation of norms would obviously be contrary to the nature of the sacred liturgy, in which Christ Himself wishes to gather His Church, so that together with Himself she will be ‘one body and one spirit’”. (RS 5)

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Young people don’t need fluff to learn to appreciate the liturgy. They need meat and potatoes.

Mom:

The Meat is the Meat of the Gospel and of the Faith. How we package it can be adapted according to the people we’re dealing with, so long as we’re not leaving out the meat. We need to avoid confusing the music, as much as we both might love the traditional hymns, with the meat of the Gospel.

The Church has changed launguages, music, and has even allowed each diocese to adapt parts of the Divine Liturgy to their own people so it would speak more clearly to them. Some of the most raucous Liturgies I’ve ever heard are those of Maronite Catholics, until they get to the Words of Consecration, when all falls silent except for the priest.

I’ve had knock-down drag-out wars with liturgists, and even priests, who insisted on leaving out the Creed and readings and other crucial parts of the Mass, or adding their own “Poltically Correct” readings from Non-Scriptural, and even non-Christian, sources in place of the Scriptures, and often failed to use any of the designated Canons provided by the Church, using Canon “Make it us as you go along”. I sometimes even heard them not say the Words of Consecration.

And, you can forget about Orthodox Sermons that had anything to do about the Scriptures in those situations.

And, I can’t tell you all the names the liturgists & priests called me, but I didn’t “go over their head” until it became obvious they were never going to listen and were only going to call me “Fascist”, “Jesus-Freak”, Bible-Thumper" & worse.

What bugs me here is it seems as if the man in Stuebenville videotaped first without ever talking to anyone involved in the Masses, or to asking himself if these issues were worthy of the stink that’s been raised.

Because, contrary, to what some have said here, this isn’t the “Praise and Glory” that makes even my cat vomit and spew, nor the “LifeTeen” with its Cotton-Candy “Jesus loves me, & God doesn’t make junk,” junk. Contemporary music can also be Scriptural, doctrinally correct and praise and glorify God.

Jesus once said, “Each day has problems enough of its own.” Maybe, we ought to amend that, each parish has enough of its own.

We need to learn to choose our fights, and to learn to differentiate between Matters of Taste and situations that Need Correction. If we can’t, we’ll be involved in endless disputes that can neither edify us or contribute to our need for charity and fellowship. It will also enable the Enemy of the Brethren to keep us from becoming the problem solvers and activists the Church so desparately needs.

Please consider this - The Early Romans and other Pegans looked at the Early Christians and said, “Look at how they Love one another!” Do you think an unbeliever or someone who was curious about Catholicism could read this thread and say, “Look at those Catholics posting on Catholic Answers - See how they love each other and their fellow Catholics?”

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

MODERATOR CAUTION:

Folks, please review posts prior to sending and remove from them all personalized remarks. Stay with issues not the posters.

At the moment in time, this thread is going…going…and if the personalization doesn’t cease, will be Gone.

Marion:

Please close this thread down:

It is neither edifying nor charitable.

It’s not as if we are dealing with a situation where people are leaving out reading, refusing to say the Cread, or altering the Prayers designated by the Church.

I thank you for your herculean attempts to bring it on topic.

YBIC, Michael

 

[Marian_Carroll]

The thread is now closed and thanks to all who contributed in a meaningful way.