Homeopathy = Placebo

[vppoole]

I’m not sure if scientists do this, but has there been a test to determine if the placebo effect is stronger than the effects of verified medicines that an individual does not have confidence in? This is different than a double blind procedure. What if person A received a placebo and demonstrated much hope in getting better through the placebo, while person B received a legitimate medicine that he or she was convinced did not work in the slightest, and of course they had the same malady? What would the results be, and would they be the same for all illnesses and severities? To play the Devil’s Advocate, is it possible that the strength of a person’s belief about being healed might have a significant effect on his or her own healing?

If so, then wouldn’t fostering severe doubt and depression on the effectiveness of one’s medicines potentially diminish or nullify the medicines’ effects on the individual’s weak health, especially if the particular medicine is not very empirically effective anyway? (After all, there still are several diseases that currently remain mysteries to scientists.)

In such cases, could one reasonably place more trust in a treatment they believe works in some mysterious way (placebo effect), provided that the treatment is not something chemically detrimental to his or her health?

So to make a long story a little longer, for individuals with fragile health, unsolved diseases, and weak or non-effective medicines, couldn’t a person with limited time available to them reasonably choose to place the majority of their hope and trust in the very act of believing in a cure of some other or any sort?

I am not saying that people should not go to hospitals for medical treatment, but rather that there are some instances when modern medicine does not have an effective solution. And in these uncertain instances sometimes the best solution is the solution that brings forth the most hope and determination of the patient to live. This I would argue is not mainstream homeopathy, though.

Pax!

 

[Phemie]

A homeopathic remedy is so diluted that chemically speaking, no trace of the original botanical substance is still present.

Kind of like waving a coffee bean over a cup of hot water and then claiming the resulting brew will make you more alert.

 

[Ghoti]

Kind of like waving a coffee bean over a cup of hot water and then claiming the resulting brew will make you more alert.

More like mixing a martini by waving the vermouth over the gin.

 

[Ghoti]

I’m not sure if scientists do this, but has there been a test to determine if the placebo effect is stronger than the effects of verified medicines that an individual does not have confidence in? This is different than a double blind procedure. What if person A received a placebo and demonstrated much hope in getting better through the placebo, while person B received a legitimate medicine that he or she was convinced did not work in the slightest, and of course they had the same malady? What would the results be, and would they be the same for all illnesses and severities? To play the Devil’s Advocate, is it possible that the strength of a person’s belief about being healed might have a significant effect on his or her own healing?

If so, then wouldn’t fostering severe doubt and depression on the effectiveness of one’s medicines potentially diminish or nullify the medicines’ effects on the individual’s weak health, especially if the particular medicine is not very empirically effective anyway? (After all, there still are several diseases that currently remain mysteries to scientists.)

In such cases, could one reasonably place more trust in a treatment they believe works in some mysterious way (placebo effect), provided that the treatment is not something chemically detrimental to his or her health?

So to make a long story a little longer, for individuals with fragile health, unsolved diseases, and weak or non-effective medicines, couldn’t a person with limited time available to them reasonably choose to place the majority of their hope and trust in the very act of believing in a cure of some other or any sort?

I am not saying that people should not go to hospitals for medical treatment, but rather that there are some instances when modern medicine does not have an effective solution. And in these uncertain instances sometimes the best solution is the solution that brings forth the most hope and determination of the patient to live. This I would argue is not mainstream homeopathy, though.

Pax!

Well, I would use homeopathic remedies if there were no other options. Not that I believe in it, but when you are on your deathbed, what have you got to lose?

Just like, if I should fall off a cliff, why not flap my arms on the way down?

The problem with the placebo is that, AFAIK, legit medical doctors only prescribe placebos in extremis, and only in particular circumstances, not as a regular practice. Homeopaths prescribe nothing but the sugar water, and take your money by promising only false hope. They are the equivalent of snake-oil salesman. And this “like-cures-like” hooey seems to be a new-agey pseudoscientific take on sympathetic magic.

It’s Benny Hinn in a bottle.

 

[shannyk]

I thought everyone knew homeopathy was bunk by now? I truly didshrug:

Does anyone believe in science anymore I wonder?

 

[Phemie]

The problem with the placebo is that, AFAIK, legit medical doctors only prescribe placebos in extremis, and only in particular circumstances, not as a regular practice.

I’ve seen it work in the hospital. An injection of 1cc normal saline always worked on the patient who came in unable to pee and distended out to here. The doctor figured it out after she’d been in to be catheterized a few times. The next time she came in he talked to her about how he’d found a nice new drug that would help. Worked like a charm.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

After reading some of these threads on Homeopathy, I’m starting to think that the people who claim to believe in Homeopathy are actually using herbal remedies, and they don’t realize that homeopathic remedies are not the same thing.

I think this is an important misconception to clear up, because now that the public has equated homeopathy with herbal medicine, it will be easy for people to inadvertently choose useless homeopathic remedies over remedies that might do real good.

Cracker Mom: You might try to clear this up. Maybe your fellow Catholics don’t actually believe in homeopathy after all.

If these posts serve to clear up that misconception then it was worth taking the time to add this thread.Appreciate your comments.
Unfortunately, I had a conversation with a young,college educated Catholic mom recently who still buys into the homeopathic philosophy even after the explanation re. homeopathy vs. herbal medicine.Her family is so turned off by mainstream medicine I guess they are willing to suspend critical thinking.

 

[whatevergirl]

If these posts serve to clear up that misconception then it was worth taking the time to add this thread.Appreciate your comments.
Unfortunately, I had a conversation with a young,college educated Catholic mom recently who still buys into the homeopathic philosophy even after the explanation re. homeopathy vs. herbal medicine.Her family is so turned off by mainstream medicine I guess they are willing to suspend critical thinking.

Mainstream medicine, has a lot of dangerous side effects, so I can understand why she’d be a bit turned off. I think however alternative medicine and mainstream medicine can work hand in hand, if a peron has a proactive doctor who doesn’t want to just prescribe pills for any and all ailments. That’s the problem I have with modern medicine, it’s re-active, and not proactive.

 

[AlwaysAsking]

Whoa! Whoa!

I see a lot of back-and-forth about the benefits of the placebo effect. I just want to encourage everybody to be completely responsible about what they endorse.

Case in point: I have a sister who is a “lifestyle” hippie. Her kids have severely restricted ‘health’ (i.e. no food coloring to prevent ‘mood swings’) diets. And her kids are always sick.

Last summer, her underweight 4-year-old had flu-- vomiting and diarrhea-- for TWO WEEKS and she treated him ONLY with homeopathic remedies, which she claimed “worked.”

I see a poster insisting that homeopathic remedies work; another that it’s good to harness the placebo effect.

My sincere, heartfelt advice: never, never, NEVER assume the people you’re talking “alternative” to have ONE IOTA of common sense or are even capable of the basic prioritization of safety vs. fashion lifestyle statement, like ‘fight cancer with herbs’. I mean it. You could be helping to endanger someone’s life.

I say this in love.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Whoa! Whoa!

I see a lot of back-and-forth about the benefits of the placebo effect. I just want to encourage everybody to be completely responsible about what they endorse.

Case in point: I have a sister who is a “lifestyle” hippie. Her kids have severely restricted ‘health’ (i.e. no food coloring to prevent ‘mood swings’) diets. And her kids are always sick.

Last summer, her underweight 4-year-old had flu-- vomiting and diarrhea-- for TWO WEEKS and she treated him ONLY with homeopathic remedies, which she claimed “worked.”

I see a poster insisting that homeopathic remedies work; another that it’s good to harness the placebo effect.

My sincere, heartfelt advice: never, never, NEVER assume the people you’re talking “alternative” to have ONE IOTA of common sense or are even capable of the basic prioritization of safety vs. fashion lifestyle statement, like ‘fight cancer with herbs’. I mean it. You could be helping to endanger someone’s life.

I say this in love.

I don’t like quackery & sham medicine myself. Homeopathy is clearly baloney but I would keep an open mind re. alternative views on health.It’s the folks who are inflexible about accepting any mainstream medicine that end up endangering their health & worse, their childrens’ health.
I think there’s merit to some supplements & would encourage folks to educate themselves on medical options for their families.Much of what goes in hospitals & doctor’s offices could stand some scrutiny, too.
I attended a “seminar” on homeopathy years ago before I figured out it was bogus. My first clue was all the talk about the “Vital Force”, etc. When I questioned the speaker about any scientific basis for this belief he became very defensive. Kind of reminded me of the Wizard of Oz scene -“Don’t pay any attention to that man behind the curtain…”
Too bad really. It would be nice if it worked & parents had another medical option.But it’s a sham & a waste of money.And in a situation like you describe, possibly dangerous.The only thing that “works” in homeopathy is the body’s natural ability to heal itself.And of course that happens just fine much of the time with or without the “remedies.”

 

[nova147]

Looking at the ingredients, I don’t think “Airborne” is homeopathic. Homeopathic remedies can be identified because they have no measurable quantities of any active ingredients. While I’m don’t know if Airborne has been proven to be effective, it does have ingredients that your body needs to stay healthy. I probably wouldn’t buy it, because the box says “This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.” So what’s the point?

Airborne has that on the box because they were sued. It’s an immune system supplement, so when you take it when you feel a cold starting, you give your body some help in fighting the cold. But it doesn’t actually cure the cold. It doesn’t actually prevent you from acquiring the virus. I’ve found that it works most of the time, but not always – though I’ve never had a horrid time with a cold when I’ve used it. So, they can’t claim that it cures or prevents the cold, but it does help your immune system.

 

[nova147]

To the OP: Thanks for this thread – I never knew there was a difference between homeopathy and herbal remedies. Now I know!

 

[Cracker_Mom]

To the OP: Thanks for this thread – I never knew there was a difference between homeopathy and herbal remedies. Now I know!

You’re welcome!

 

[Middleman]

Why do so many otherwise skeptical & intelligent Catholic parents get sucked into this quackery that’s been grandfathered into medicine?
Chemically speaking there’s nothing leftover of the herbs homeopathic remedies claim to contain.The only traceable ingredients are lactose & fillers, depending on the product.Yet folks will swear up & down these sugar pills work.
The same parents who might eschew yoga & martial arts for New Age/Eastern religion connections buy right into this foolishness.What’s up?

Ha ha, I totally agree. Good title to your thread! Ha ha!

 

[CatholicSam]

Wow, I didn’t realize medical talk was allowed in this forum I guess it was only banned in Parenting?

But I just love the story of the doctor who injected 1cc of saline to get the patient to pee! Amazing what our minds can do sometimes!

Anyway, I am one of those crazy Catholics who believes in homeopathy. Even my family physician recommends it to us (Zicam). And to be honest, I have found the stuff to actually work! I just went and checked, and yes it says “Homeopathic” on the box. Now if that’s being used loosely or strictly I don’t know. But out of about 6-7 colds that I’ve had since using it, the times that I remember to take my Zicam early in the sickness, the cold is over in a couple of days. When I forget and don’t bother with it, my colds last about 2 weeks. Works for me! I don’t know how, but I’m not complaining!

 

[shannyk]

Wow, I didn’t realize medical talk was allowed in this forum I guess it was only banned in Parenting?

But I just love the story of the doctor who injected 1cc of saline to get the patient to pee! Amazing what our minds can do sometimes!

Anyway, I am one of those crazy Catholics who believes in homeopathy. Even my family physician recommends it to us (Zicam). And to be honest, I have found the stuff to actually work! I just went and checked, and yes it says “Homeopathic” on the box. Now if that’s being used loosely or strictly I don’t know. But out of about 6-7 colds that I’ve had since using it, the times that I remember to take my Zicam early in the sickness, the cold is over in a couple of days. When I forget and don’t bother with it, my colds last about 2 weeks. Works for me! I don’t know how, but I’m not complaining!

Sam not to pick, but how can you know it works? How can you know how long that particular virus was going to last? You are attributing a short cold to taking Zicam, when it could just be that the virus you got was a short lived one. Correlation doesn’t prove causation.

 

[CatholicSam]

Sam not to pick, but how can you know it works? How can you know how long that particular virus was going to last? You are attributing a short cold to taking Zicam, when it could just be that the virus you got was a short lived one. Correlation doesn’t prove causation.

Yep, I know it’s not precise, it’s just been my experience. Before taking it I would have a 1 or 2 day cold about once every 5 years. Typically my colds would last 1-2 weeks, sometimes longer. But I’ve had about 3 of the very short colds in the last 8 months since taking Zicam. Why do you think I don’t always take it? Part of me thinks “This is just a placebo, I’ll be fine without it, my last cold was only a day and I never really got sick.” But every blasted time I say that I come to regret it and have looooong colds. Coincidence? Maybe Mind over matter/placebo effect? Maybe. But as I said before, I’m not complaining

Actually after talking to my mom, we think it may contain zinc (hence the name). So as I mentioned previously, I don’t know how strictly the Zicam company uses the label “Homeopathic”. I know the pills have a metallic taste to them. Maybe it’s got some homeopathic ingredients and some vitamins/herbs/minerals. Who knows? I don’t feel like researching it right now

Oooh, I also wanted to comment on the person (AlwaysAsking) who was criticizing their sister for treating her son’s flu with homeopathics. Um, when my kids got the flu a year ago (I mean influenza, not sure if you’re just talking about a tummy bug), the doctors didn’t want to give them anything. My poor 1yo DD really suffered through that. So it’s not such a shockingly evil thing to me that the mom you mention didn’t give her son anything but homeopathic remedies, when MDs don’t have anything else to offer. I heard also that this year’s flu doesn’t respond to Tamiflu even, so it’s not like there’s really a lot of “real medicine” you can give for the flu anyway.

 

[AlwaysAsking]

Oooh, I also wanted to comment on the person (AlwaysAsking) who was criticizing their sister for treating her son’s flu with homeopathics. Um, when my kids got the flu a year ago (I mean influenza, not sure if you’re just talking about a tummy bug), the doctors didn’t want to give them anything. My poor 1yo DD really suffered through that. So it’s not such a shockingly evil thing to me that the mom you mention didn’t give her son anything but homeopathic remedies, when MDs don’t have anything else to offer. I heard also that this year’s flu doesn’t respond to Tamiflu even, so it’s not like there’s really a lot of “real medicine” you can give for the flu anyway.

Hi there,

just to clarify, my sister assumed it was a tummy bug. It’s entirely possible that a competent physician may have diagnosed a treatable condition, but we’ll never know…

Many pediatricians are very concerned about dehydration and will, at the least, strongly recommend stuff like Pedialyte. Severe dehydration was my primary concern, and in such cases real physicians may actually recommend IV fluids. We’ll never know. I’m thankful my nephew survived; next time he may not.

My position: if a child is severely ill and a parent does nothing, it’s neglect. If a child is severely ill and a parent does nothing and calls it “homeopathic medicine,” it’s still neglect.

further clarification: your kids were being monitored by a physician, after getting the diagnosis. That is completely different. I assume you were told what to watch out for, how to care for your kids, etc. That’s responsible care.

 

[Middleman]

I think what happens to make people believe that homeopathic remedies in fact work is as follows: They come down with, say, a cold. They then begin to, at some point in their illness, take one of these placebo pills. Meanwhile, invisible to their naked eye, their immune system quietly begins to mobilize its army, and attacks the cold virus. The patient eventually gets better, and gives the credit to the homeopathic remedy.

 

[CatholicSam]

Hi there,

just to clarify, my sister assumed it was a tummy bug. It’s entirely possible that a competent physician may have diagnosed a treatable condition, but we’ll never know…

Many pediatricians are very concerned about dehydration and will, at the least, strongly recommend stuff like Pedialyte. Severe dehydration was my primary concern, and in such cases real physicians may actually recommend IV fluids. We’ll never know. I’m thankful my nephew survived; next time he may not.

My position: if a child is severely ill and a parent does nothing, it’s neglect. If a child is severely ill and a parent does nothing and calls it “homeopathic medicine,” it’s still neglect.

OK, a tummy bug isn’t influenza. Two extremely different things. I will say that when my son had a severe tummy bug, my pediatrician told me to stop breastfeeding him since he shouldn’t have “dairy”. He wouldn’t take pedialyte or *anything *else. He couldn’t keep down water or absolutely anything. When I did my own research I found breastmilk is medically considered a clear liquid and only cow’s milk is “dairy”. My breastfeeding him was what kept him out of the hospital for dehydration, praise God! In my case, the advice my son’s MD gave was neglect, incompetence, and nothing short of malpractice. If we followed her “expert” advice he would have landed in the hospital. And with the outrageous amount of hospital-acquired infections now days (what is it, something like 100,000 people die from them each year?) who knows how that would have ended up. Praise God for a mother’s intuition!

Maybe you should bring up your concerns with your sister. It couldn’t hurt if you phrase it tactfully.