Homeschoolers forced into CCD for First Holy Eucharist

[bethndanny]

My question is what happens after the pastor allows a family to homeschool in this manner and does not require the child to attend CCD when they fail the interview and the pastor has to tell the parents that the child will not be allowed to receive First Eucharist or Confirmation.

The parents will be outraged because after all, it is their right and duty to educate their child in the Faith yet what they see as the faith is not what the Catholic Church actually is.

What happens then?

Isn’t the best of both worlds to have the parents teach at home with CCD as a support, as was told to the parent in question to begin with?

While it is the parent’s right to teach their child in this manner are they so good at it that they will not miss anything?

This is one of the questions I have about homeschooling in general, are parents’ knowledgeable enough to cover all that needs to be covered, especially in the High School years.

If the child doesn’t “pass” the interview they do not receive the sacrament. If the parents are outraged that they didn’t do their job that is their issue. Home schoolers are not asking for the priest to allow their child to receive the sacraments unprepared, they are asking that they be able to prepare their children.

Why are you assuming the CCD teachers are “so good at it that they will not miss anything”, while dismissing the idea that a parent may be “so good at it that they will not miss anything”? These same parents wanting to home school their children’s CCD could be teaching your child their CCD lessons as well. How can you trust them?

As far as you questioning parents being knowledgeable enough to teach high school level education, please research the subject. Home schooling is not one parent relying only on their own personal knowledge. They gather information, buy books, and rely on others who have knowledge on subjects. Teachers in schools are not more capable of reading a teacher’s guide than a home schooling parent is.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If the child doesn’t “pass” the interview they do not receive the sacrament. If the parents are outraged that they didn’t do their job that is their issue. Home schoolers are not asking for the priest to allow their child to receive the sacraments unprepared, they are asking that they be able to prepare their children.

Why are you assuming the CCD teachers are “so good at it that they will not miss anything”, while dismissing the idea that a parent may be “so good at it that they will not miss anything”? These same parents wanting to home school their children’s CCD could be teaching your child their CCD lessons as well. How can you trust them?

As far as you questioning parents being knowledgeable enough to teach high school level education, please research the subject. Home schooling is not one parent relying only on their own personal knowledge. They gather information, buy books, and rely on others who have knowledge on subjects. Teachers in schools are not more capable of reading a teacher’s guide than a home schooling parent is.

I am not assuming anything. I am raising concerns that I have.

If you have issues with that, then I think it is your problem.

We can not lump all parents into the same group.

There will be parents who wish to homeschool CCD and will not prepare their child correctly and then will be upset when they are refused the sacrament, that is a fact. I am not saying the majority will do this but there will be cases of this.

How does one deal with this.

When we open the doors for exceptions we have to be clear about what is required and what will happen when the requirements are not met.

I am not against homeschooling I am just concerned about some of the issues involved in it.

 

[bethndanny]

I am not assuming anything. I am raising concerns that I have.

If you have issues with that, then I think it is your problem.

We can not lump all parents into the same group.

There will be parents who wish to homeschool CCD and will not prepare their child correctly and then will be upset when they are refused the sacrament, that is a fact. I am not saying the majority will do this but there will be cases of this.

How does one deal with this.

When we open the doors for exceptions we have to be clear about what is required and what will happen when the requirements are not met.

I am not against homeschooling I am just concerned about some of the issues involved in it.

I think you are assuming that the CCD teachers are qualified aren’t you? If I am mistaken, I do apologize. My point is that not all of them are qualified.
You may very well be right that a parent may be upset if their child is refused a sacrament due to their child’s lack of preparation. I am saying that it doesn’t matter if they are upset. If they did not prepare their child well enough then their child should not receive whichever sacrament they were to be preparing for. In my church, last year, the class preparing for reconciliation IN CCD was not prepared. The children did not receive the sacrament of reconciliation. Now, there WERE children that were prepared, the DRE said as much, but since all of them were not prepared none of them received the sacrament. Lack of preparedness can happen with or without CCD.

BTW, I am ITA that we need to be clear about requirements.

 

[Brendan]

I see that many people are pointing out that it’s their canonical right to educate their children in the faith. I don’t think anyone disagrees in principle. I just don’t think the canon was erected as a way for families to avoid contact with parish CCD programs. .

Father,

Since parish CCD programs aren’t even mentioned in Canon Law, while the parent’s right to choose the educational format for their child IS, I think it would be safe to say that yes, it was designed that way.

Parish priests of large and small parishes do not want to get into the “make an exception for me” syndrome.

The level of desire on the part of the parish is immaterial. If that is what the parents choose, that is what needs to be done. The Church has never been about only doing what we desire to do.

We all agree that making a particular methodolgy mandatory for the reception of a Sacrament is contrary to Church Law and the various dubia presented in this thread. So even the term ‘exception’ is incorrect. Rather it is simply the parents choosing another route to educate the child. No ‘exception’ is needed.

Its simply not practical to expect me to interview all these people each and every year

Then delegate it to the DRE or the Catechists. If the child can answer the questions in accordance with the Church, and to the level of knowledge that is expected, there is no problem.

How do we expect children to understand that we’re all connected to one another in the Church if they experience the Church as something individual and without others?

The do, it’s called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is the ultimate Communial act, as you are well aware.

1. Other bishops will back their pastors on such an issue to the hilt. You’ll end up wasting time with them trying to mediate a solution and you’ll end up after a while simply writing to Rome. Rome will then take its own sweet time to respond and eventually you’ll get a letter that supports you. But how long will that take and is it really worth it?

Yes, and Rome has responded via a number of responsoria on the topic, presenting that would certainly aid the pastor or bishop in coming to the conclusion desired by Rome.

Unless the parish is teaching outright heresy then it doesn’t seem unreasonable that a parish ask children about to receive the sacraments participate in some kind of parish program

The parish may certainly ask, no one is doubting that, but to DEMAND is a different thing.

 

[ASD]

Parish priests of large and small parishes do not want to get into the “make an exception for me” syndrome.

OK. Administrative convenience has to count for something. The questions are:

1. 
   *]How inconvenient is it, really?
   *]How much weight to give that inconvenience?
   

   How do we expect children to understand that we’re all connected to one another in the Church if they experience the Church as something individual and without others?

   “Individual and without others” doesn’t seem like a fair way to describe parents teaching their family about our faith.
   
   Regardless, one way to expect children to understand would be to tell them about it. Something like this:
   

   We don’t want to do the CCD thing over at St. Trendy because we know that, because of peer pressure, etc, they’re teaching some questionable stuff, and we really want to be connected to our Catholic tradition without all that.

   Unless the parish is teaching outright heresy then it doesn’t seem unreasonable that a parish ask children about to receive the sacraments participate in some kind of parish program.

   1. 
      *]Wow. Outright heresy is a pretty low bar for a parish. Maybe that’s part of our problem. [Here I try hard to suppress angry remarks about the fruits of “pastoral” councils, etc.]
      *]Reasonable asking isn’t the problem; requiring without authority is the issue.
      

      ASD​

      Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[Brendan]

Father,

You referenced that homeschoolers might be correct under the letter of the law, but not the spirit.

Could you plese read this dubium\responsium and then tell me what you feel the correct spirit Canon 890 should be intrepreted relative to Diocesan or parish Particular Law.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWCONF.HTM

 

[RosaryCrusader]

My question is what happens after the pastor allows a family to homeschool in this manner and does not require the child to attend CCD when they fail the interview and the pastor has to tell the parents that the child will not be allowed to receive First Eucharist or Confirmation.

The parents will be outraged because after all, it is their right and duty to educate their child in the Faith yet what they see as the faith is not what the Catholic Church actually is.

What happens then?

Isn’t the best of both worlds to have the parents teach at home with CCD as a support, as was told to the parent in question to begin with?

While it is the parent’s right to teach their child in this manner are they so good at it that they will not miss anything?

This is one of the questions I have about homeschooling in general, are parents’ knowledgeable enough to cover all that needs to be covered, especially in the High School years.

There was just a story circulating in the media not too long ago about universities being eager to get their hands on home schooled kids. The issue of being able to teach higher level academic courses appears to be a non-issue. I know a family who’s oldest was taking courses at the local college at the age of 14 - the parents were not upperclass or well educated themselves. This girl was looking to have a 4 year degree by the age of 18. I don’t agree with this mentality - I think kids should be allowed to be kids and not rushed through the system but the typical home schooling family I know goes through the whole process, with flying colors, with no problems; neither for the parents or the students.

 

[Brendan]

.

There will be parents who wish to homeschool CCD and will not prepare their child correctly and then will be upset when they are refused the sacrament, that is a fact. I am not saying the majority will do this but there will be cases of this.

You are correct. If the child cannot express the knowledge necessary, they are not to recievce the Sacrament.

This is true if the child is educated via homeschool OR CCD. And I expect the parents (either homeschool or not) would be upset.

But the issue you raise is not particular to either case.

In a properly run parish, there should be some 1st graders who are prepared, most 2nd graders and probably some 3rd graders that were held back from the previous year.

The focus should be upon giving the child the necessary Graces when they are prepared for it, not about satifiying a parents schedule.

 

[jmcrae]

OK. Administrative convenience has to count for something. The questions are:

1. 
   *]How inconvenient is it, really?

1. 
   Say you’ve got 45 kids who want to receive First Reconciliation, and all of them have decided to go with home-schooling alone, without coming to the designated class, because hey, if Johnny gets to skip, then we can, too.
   
   Basically, you have to do the “Understanding the lesson” portion of each of the four lessons, 45 times, once with each kid, instead of just one time, with all 45 kids present. Now, the “understanding” section is only five minutes for each lesson, for a total of 20 minutes for the whole program, so it doesn’t seem like much, but when you multiply it times 45, that’s 15 hours in total (45 * 20 = 900 minutes, 900 minutes /60 minutes in an hour = 15 hours)
   
   Add to that, that the kids who didn’t quite get it are going to be in the interview for longer than 20 minutes while the priest re-teaches it to them, and you are looking at some major overtime for the priest. Scheduling all of those interviews would also be a nightmare, since the same thing keeping them from the Preparation for Reconciliation classes is also most likely going to prevent them from showing up to their scheduled interview time.

 

[CDNowak]

Parish priests of large and small parishes do not want to get into the “make an exception for me” syndrome. It starts with one **legitimate **family’s request and spins out of control into an unmanageable mess.

How can any sense of the good be served by denying what is legitimate? Is this not, by definition, unjust?

 

[EasterJoy]

Again: The OP is not simply a parent who doesn’t like her parish’s CCD program. She is a home schooling parent.

In other words, she is accustomed to having to demonstrate to her local school district that her children are meeting state benchmarks. She also understands the concept of “bake the whole cake, or get out of the kitchen.” Home school parents get the option of teaching only certain subjects at the pleasure of the district. Otherwise, you either teach math, science, and everything, or you get your kid into an accredited school. There are reasonable grounds for restricting this to homeschoolers, then.

If your kid goes to public school and doesn’t learn anything, sometimes the school district will pass them, anyway. Your choice is to jump through their hoops to home school, send your kid to a different accredited school, or just live with adding whatever you see fit to their compulsory public education. There is nothing to be done about that. If you homeschool, if your district isn’t totally asleep at the wheel, you prove it or you lose it, and on their terms.

There is no reason a diocese cannot do the same: that is, allow homeschooling parents to opt out of parish RE if and only if:
a) they are in good standing as home schoolers with their local public school district and
b) they can demonstrate that they are meeting benchmarks with materials approved by the diocese. I mean standardized testing or other methods like the school districts require. Anything that the comes from the priest should be along the lines of what would be required of a student attending parochial school out of parish. (When does a priest ever interview them? They don’t. The superintendent of Catholic schools takes care of that. They just require the kids to come to parish-wide preparation retreats and things like that.)

This isn’t “make an exception for me.” This is “recognize that which is legitimate and can prove itself to be such.” If the state education system can figure out a way to do it, so can the diocese. It is valuable enough, that’s for sure. These are some really dedicated parents.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

My question is what happens after the pastor allows a family to homeschool in this manner and does not require the child to attend CCD when they fail the interview and the pastor has to tell the parents that the child will not be allowed to receive First Eucharist or Confirmation.

The parents will be outraged because after all, it is their right and duty to educate their child in the Faith yet what they see as the faith is not what the Catholic Church actually is.

Exactly, while I understand the concerns and intentions of parents who wish to religously homeschool their children, on a larger level it opens many issues that cause pastors and bishops headaches.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

If the child doesn’t “pass” the interview they do not receive the sacrament. If the parents are outraged that they didn’t do their job that is their issue. Home schoolers are not asking for the priest to allow their child to receive the sacraments unprepared, they are asking that they be able to prepare their children.

But it won’t end there. The parents will write to the bishop’s office and if they’re not satisfied there will write to Rome. Its a vicious circle.

Why are you assuming the CCD teachers are “so good at it that they will not miss anything”, while dismissing the idea that a parent may be “so good at it that they will not miss anything”? These same parents wanting to home school their children’s CCD could be teaching your child their CCD lessons as well. How can you trust them?

The difference is that the parish knows/controls what’s being taught in the CCD program, we don’t know what’s being taught in the homeschooled religious ed.

 

[Brendan]

…
Add to that, that the kids who didn’t quite get it are going to be in the interview for longer than 20 minutes while the priest re-teaches it to them, and you are looking at some major overtime for the priest. Scheduling all of those interviews would also be a nightmare, since the same thing keeping them from the Preparation for Reconciliation classes is also most likely going to prevent them from showing up to their scheduled interview time.

So what you are basically saying here is that it is OK for priests and their staff to ignore the Canons of the Church when it would be inconvienient for them to actually obey them??

 

[CDNowak]

Say you’ve got 45 kids who want to receive First Reconciliation, and all of them have decided to go with home-schooling alone, without coming to the designated class, because hey, if Johnny gets to skip, then we can, too.

Basically, you have to do the “Understanding the lesson” portion of each of the four lessons, 45 times, once with each kid, instead of just one time, with all 45 kids present. Now, the “understanding” section is only five minutes for each lesson, for a total of 20 minutes for the whole program, so it doesn’t seem like much, but when you multiply it times 45, that’s 15 hours in total (45 * 20 = 900 minutes, 900 minutes /60 minutes in an hour = 15 hours)

Add to that, that the kids who didn’t quite get it are going to be in the interview for longer than 20 minutes while the priest re-teaches it to them, and you are looking at some major overtime for the priest. Scheduling all of those interviews would also be a nightmare, since the same thing keeping them from the Preparation for Reconciliation classes is also most likely going to prevent them from showing up to their scheduled interview time.

I think your time of 20 minutes might be a little high (a comprehensive interview of the knowledge and understanding proper to the age should not take more than 5-7 minutes, but it is good to give the children an opportunity to just talk as well), but I’ll stipulate. Everyone for homeschooling seems to be in favor of DRE’s and trained volunteers helping, so let’s say three people interviewing (15 / 3=5hrs) over the course of a week, one hour a day (I think you might even be able to make a flexible. Heck, that would be reasonable before the parents start teaching and before they present their children for each First Confession, Confirmation, and First Communion. (4-5 weeks / year, 1 hr/day, 3 interviewers). Add a group rehearsal of the logistics the day before (DRE /volunteers/ Parents) and you’re set.

As for the children who are not prepared, it would be nice if the interviewer could distinguish between the child’s lack of understanding and the parents’ lack of instruction: if the child is not ready then they wait a year, if the parents failed *then *they must do CCD. The priest would not be expected to do the instruction himself, in a one-on-one setting (that is the parents’ vocation, not his).

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Father,

Since parish CCD programs aren’t even mentioned in Canon Law, while the parent’s right to choose the educational format for their child IS, I think it would be safe to say that yes, it was designed that way.

I would disagree. CCD isn’t mentioned because that’s a “localized” way of teaching the faith and canon law is a universal law.

The level of desire on the part of the parish is immaterial. If that is what the parents choose, that is what needs to be done. The Church has never been about only doing what we desire to do.

Not quite sure what you’re saying here.

We all agree that making a particular methodolgy mandatory for the reception of a Sacrament is contrary to Church Law and the various dubia presented in this thread. So even the term ‘exception’ is incorrect. Rather it is simply the parents choosing another route to educate the child. No ‘exception’ is needed.

Once again, just because someone has a “right” does not make them right. And it is indeed an exception to the norm since the norm is to participate in the parish’s preparation program.

Then delegate it to the DRE or the Catechists. If the child can answer the questions in accordance with the Church, and to the level of knowledge that is expected, there is no problem.

You’re missing the point, even if they can’t pass the test they still would have a “right” to the sacrament.

The do, it’s called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is the ultimate Communial act, as you are well aware.

Like I said, there’s a huge difference between attending Mass as part of a community and attending as a collection of individuals who just happen to be in the same room.

Yes, and Rome has responded via a number of responsoria on the topic, presenting that would certainly aid the pastor or bishop in coming to the conclusion desired by Rome.

On a realistic level, the Church doesn’t always work that way.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

How can any sense of the good be served by denying what is legitimate? Is this not, by definition, unjust?

Not really. Its common practice in law, business, and even religion to not want to set a precedent despite the legitimacy of the petitioner.

 

[CDNowak]

There is no reason a diocese cannot do the same: that is, allow homeschooling parents to opt out of parish RE if and only if:
a) they are in good standing as home schoolers with their local public school district and

Just a small point, in general the local school district has no authority over homeschoolers, in several states the law only covers notification. I have no problem with certain, shall we say, safeguards, but the diocese would actually have to refer to state homeschool laws to determine what would be adding to family’s burden. (Getting your child tested in a state with no requirements for testing can be a hassle, for example.)

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

So what you are basically saying here is that it is OK for priests and their staff to ignore the Canons of the Church when it would be inconvienient for them to actually obey them??

No, its about everyone trying to come together to do what’s best for the individual and the community (believe it or not, those goods are not mutually exclusive). To simply stomp one’s foot and scream, “I’ll do what I want because I can” is the attitude of a immature teenager and not of a mature Christian adult.

 

[CDNowak]

Not really. Its common practice in law, business, and even religion to not want to set a precedent despite the legitimacy of the petitioner.

But by refusing you do set precedent, contrary, as you have said, to the law itself.