Homeschoolers forced into CCD for First Holy Eucharist

  • Thread starter Thread starter Learning123
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Our Bishop requires anyone (including homeschoolers, it was in his letter from the weekly paper) who does not attend a parish school, to attend CCD (or SRE as my parish calls it).

I volunteer, as it’s required. The teachers rotate every month, in every class. It’s supposed to be “helpful” to the parents. I think it’s more hurtful to the students. They don’t have a chance to ask the “hard” questions, because when they get comfortable with a teacher they leave.
The lessons are very watered down. It’s hard to teach the 1st graders, when most of them don’t even have bibles at home (so they tell me).

If our bishop didn’t require attendance for sacraments, I wouldn’t send them. We do religion at home with the Faith and Life series. SRE just seems like fluff to me.
 
If the bishop in our diocese mandates such things, then are you saying it is perfectly OK to disobey him? We have 250 kids in our first communion program and 180 preparing for confirmation. This is common in most parishes in our diocese. There is no way a pastor can interview all those kids to see if they have achieved the desired level on preparation. The workbooks and retreat and required meetings for parents and students seems to be the best way to get some assurance of adequate preparation.
Unfortunately merely providing the materials doesn’t guarantee learning.

I’ve commented before about the low level of knowledge acquisition in the ccd kids I’ve taught.

But, my parish uses a pretty good program (Ignatius) and has diligent teachers. Our DRE and CRE are very good. Our pastor is very good.

But, the kids aren’t learning.

I think instead of vague objectives our Archdiocese picks out like Student should be familiar with different ways to pray, the DRE and Pastor should pick out 25 fundamental concepts and just hit those every year. Over and Over.

Though, that sounds a lot like the way kids used to learn their catechism from what I’ve heard older Catholics say.
 
Why?

And besides you, who says so?

What age is best for the child? An infant right after a maternity leave?

In a nutshell, you very well have stated a fundamental reason why many homeschool.

Can those “other adults” love that child more than a parent?

Peace, Graubo
Because living in an isolated, nuclear family hovering over and over-protecting our kids is unnatural and unhealthy in my opinion. Like someone said, why belong to the Catholic Church if you trust no one in it? Why not start your own church on your own island. Seriously.🤷

I think these parents are rebellious and disobedient and are most likely wanting to instill their own narrow interpretation of Catholicism in their children, and are fear-filled, and want to raise fear-filled kids, who set themselves apart from the universal church as better. I think there’s a lot of pride involved here.
 
Correct, the Church (as in the whole Church) requires a certain level of understanding to recieve the Sacraments. The Church (as in the Vatican) has stated that the parents may teach, and the pastor may test. Any other requirements ( like a particular program) are simply recommendations.
I would caution you on the use of “whole Church” when you actually mean the Latin Catholic Church. As the whole Church doe snot require a certain level of understanding to receive the Sacraments when the Byzantine Churches celebrate the Sacraments of Initiation with infants.

IMHO this whole issue is a question of obedience, something that is seriously lacking within the Church (the whole Church) today.
 
I think these parents are rebellious and disobedient and are most likely wanting to instill their own narrow interpretation of Catholicism in their children, and are fear-filled, and want to raise fear-filled kids, who set themselves apart from the universal church as better. I think there’s a lot of pride involved here.
Yes, your thinking about others seems quite prideful. That can can be side-effect of a mind muscle-bound with suspicion from jumping to too many conclusions.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Because living in an isolated, nuclear family hovering over and over-protecting our kids is unnatural and unhealthy in my opinion.(1) Like someone said, why belong to the Catholic Church if you trust no one in it? Why not start your own church on your own island. Seriously.🤷 2

I think these parents are rebellious and disobedient3 and are most likely wanting to instill their own narrow interpretation4 of Catholicism in their children, and are fear-filled, and want to raise fear-filled kids, who set themselves apart from the universal church as better. I think there’s a lot of pride involved here.5
1) OK, still not familiar with homeschooling? Allow me to quote myself:
Oh, you’ve got to be kidding me…

Let’s see: the education of a child primarily by their parents in their own home (be it at a desk, at the table, on the floor, outside, or the laundry room). This can include instruction by their parents, other parents in the community, and (occasionally) others, field-trips, co-ops, sports, drama productions, and various social activities internal and external to the homeschool group. The schedule is usually flexible so as to accommodate the children’s interests, activities, and even proficiencies in various subjects.

The socialization that the homeschool child receives during “school hours” differs qualitatively with the school system as well. Schools, in general, have a strong horizontal element to the socialization: children socialize with their so called peers who happen to have been born within a year of their birthdays (unless they were held back, or in rare cases pushed ahead a grade). Homeschoolers, because the interaction takes place much more at the family level, interact with children of all ages, as well as adults. It is not strange to see a homeschooled child having a fully engaging conversation with an adult on their current project (in whatever their field of interest might be).

Your limited conception of homeschooling is so rare, that it would be fair to say that it does not exist.
2) We believe in the Catholic Church and her teachings. The problem is that she is rather ineffective in ensuring that those teachings are passed on accurately through parish programs.

3) I have asked repeatedly for someone to make your case. Perhaps you will rise to the challenge: Show, from Church documents that homeschooling is disobedience.

4) Who has the narrow vision of Catholicism? The one that embrace legitimate diversity in the Church practice, or the one who insists that there cannot be this variation?

5) Look in a mirror.
 
I’ve taught religious education, and I totally understand why homeschoolers don’t want their children in there. This is just my personal experience here at 2 different parishes, but here goes… In my ccd classes, about 30-40% of the kids had parents who didn’t even attend Mass-- they’d just drop the kids off for CCD. The kids, of course, were just resentful of being placed in CCD and just wanted to cause trouble. One boy made it his mission to get kicked out of CCD. You just wouldn’t believe the misbehavior I (and the director) put with from this boy who was TRYING to get kicked out. I liked the boy (as a person), but I think his shaky homelife had caused him to seriously rebel. Another year, I had a group of 6th graders who were mostly sweet kids. All of them, except for the one homeschooled girl, knew so little that I found myself focusing on only the rudimentary basics of our religion. The homeschooled girl was reading the Catechism as part of her schooling-- my class was so far below her, I know the class was just a waste of her time. I felt bad for her. Another girl in that class (one whose parents I NEVER saw) just sat with her eyes fixed on the ceiling from her annoyance at being there. Even during the final ceremony concluding the program, the girl kept huffing and puffing and rolling her eyes at the priest! As long as CCD is full of kids whose parent do NOTHING to teach them to faith at home (which turns out some pretty unpleasant and challenging kids), we’re going to have the devout homeschoolers RUNNING from CCD programs.

I once heard a priest announce the religious education programs were necessary because so many parents weren’t doing their job at home. I tend to agree with him.
 
I’ll be honest, I’m really and truely shocked anyone is complaining about taking your kids to CCD! I was listening to my fiance read through some of these and I was just shocked. I’m really not sure what you guys are thinking of replacing official church teaching with, whatever your best understanding is at home with out any guidence from the Church? I guess I don’t want to sound like I’m coming down too hard on this idea, but really there’s a reason why Jesus left a living breathing teaching Church on earth. To teach her childeren. Parents, you are your childerens first catechist, but you can’t be your childs only catechist. This will lead to more fracture, more seperation, more dissencion and people leaving the faith.

I mean how is the church to know what you are teaching your childeren at home? How are they to know you are teaching them at home? What if there’s a parent that doesn’t personally believe in the real presence and decides not to teach that to their kids? In fact they catechise their kids to think “that’s stupid”. Where are we then? This isn’t trivial, and your childs faith formation is certainly more important than football practice.
The Church herself teaches that parents are the primary educators of children. Living, breathing, baptized, and primarily responsible for their education. It is our vocation, and our responsibility. We are the ones who will be judged first if our kids are not taught the truth. You will not find the parents who do not believe in the True Presence being the ones who homeschool their kids with an approved Catholic curriculum. And how does the Church know the kids are learning? The same way the school district does, presumably. This is not rocket science.

If you are shocked that parents don’t want their kids in their parish RE program, you must not have had a chance to be shocked by the lack of practically effective and even actual content in a parish program of your own.
Here’s a partial list of my 3rd graders didn’t know when they entered my ccd classroom last year.

What the pope is. What the apostles are. Who the pope is. Who the first pope was. Who the apostles were. What Grace is. What sacraments are. How many sacraments there are.

Some of them also didn’t know.

That Jesus died and rose from the dead.

None of them knew.

The story of Adam and Eve. The stories of Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David and Goliath.

The ten commandments. The definition of sin. the difference between mortal and venial sin.

Of course, these are little guys, so I would expect that some things would slip by them. Here’s a list of what a former class of 7th grade ccd kids didn’t know. I did have one student who knew all this. Her mom has ten kids, is a daily communicant, and runs our Adoration Chapel.

The rest didn’t know:

purgatory, mortal/venial sin, what the seven sacraments were, the story of passover, what the Incarnation means, what liturgical colors mean, how the church divides the liturgical year to name a few basics. Almost all hadn’t been to confession since 2nd grade. In fact, when I made the mistake of announcing that we would be doing that the following week, only 4 students came to class that next week.

If a teacher is teaching a this level of basics to bring the kids up to speed, then a child who knows the basics isn’t going to get anything out of it.

An analogy: would you want your child who has been reading since kindergarten in a class with kids who are just learning their abcs? Wouldn’t you be concerned that not only would your child be bored, he might learn to hate school and the subject of reading?
You should hear what kids don’t know about math and basic grammar. In other words, this is an issue of general educational standards, too. The penduluum has swung so far over in favor of “analysis” and “reasoning” and “learning by doing” that a command of the fundamental facts and skills required in order to analyze or do anything independently have been neglected.

There is no way that one hour a week during the school year is going to make up for not having daily contact with these facts, or with the lack of the academic skills (not to mention the parental will!) needed to get them.

Look at it this way, though: if only the students who have been kept in the dark closet show up for RE, it is much more difficult to get them to believe that others their age know all this stuff. So while I don’t blame homeschool parents for adding parish catechist to their job description, kudos to those parents who do volunteer, as well as those who bring superior students to RE. They are needed!
 
I don’t know where to start…

I think that the Church is in a desert right now, and the whole chatechisis issue is just a symptom of the bigger problem. The parents of today where raised in an environment where CCD was abandoned for a more user friendly Religious Ed. The result is that the instructors, by and large, are well meaning but are themselves poorly catechized. There is a blind-leading-the-blind vibe going on at times. (There are many well trained instructors as well.)

Given that backdrop, I don’t blame people who have already taken the plunge to homeschool to want to extend it to religious ed. I wish they would participate to make it RE better, but. you know, RE is just a reflection of all of the other things that are wrong in the Church - lack of reverence due to a lack of belief.
 
I would caution you on the use of “whole Church” when you actually mean the Latin Catholic Church. As the whole Church doe snot require a certain level of understanding to receive the Sacraments when the Byzantine Churches celebrate the Sacraments of Initiation with infants.

IMHO this whole issue is a question of obedience, something that is seriously lacking within the Church (the whole Church) today.
You are quite correct. I was referrring to the Latin sui juris Church.

And even then, the level of understanding I mentioned is not absolute. A child in danger of death may be Confirmed by a priest, even if they are below the age of reason. An if the a priest baptizes such a person, they are actually required to Confirm the child.
 
Because living in an isolated, nuclear family hovering over and over-protecting our kids is unnatural and unhealthy in my opinion. Like someone said, why belong to the Catholic Church if you trust no one in it? Why not start your own church on your own island. Seriously.🤷

I think these parents are rebellious and disobedient and are most likely wanting to instill their own narrow interpretation of Catholicism in their children, and are fear-filled, and want to raise fear-filled kids, who set themselves apart from the universal church as better. I think there’s a lot of pride involved here.
Thanks for the response Middleman. Pretty stereotypical opinion, in my opinion.
I will agree with you that there is an awful lot of pride involved, on both sides mind you. I have to stop here because I do not want to be uncharitable or condescending.
Have a nice weekend:).

Peace, Graubo
 
I don’t know where to start…

I think that the Church is in a desert right now, and the whole chatechisis issue is just a symptom of the bigger problem. The parents of today where raised in an environment where **CCD was abandoned for a more user friendly Religious Ed. **The result is that the instructors, by and large, are well meaning but are themselves poorly catechized. There is a blind-leading-the-blind vibe going on at times. (There are many well trained instructors as well.)
.
Can you tell me what CCD is, compared to “user friendly Religious Ed”?? My church calls what should be CCD, Sunday Religious Education. Seems awfully watered down to me. But I’m a convert and never went through CCD.
 
From the perspective of the priest and Bishop sacramental preparation is very different from regular catechesis. Are there Canons or encyclicals that make this distinction? I feel like I’ve read hundreds of pages these last few weeks (I’m not the fastest reader which is why I persist in my lack of sleep!), probably around half of it I had read before. However, when I was doing this reading I wasn’t looking for that distinction. Can anybody help me with that?

As to the new priest vs. established at the parish:
This priest is willing to “take the heat” to change other things in the parish to bring it into line with Church teaching. (I’d do cartwheels if I still could! ) My understanding is that he feels she will have already learned everything that will be covered but must take a hard line in obedience to the diocese that she shall attend CCD.

Disobedience:
If I was interested in being disobedient I would have charged in and said “I know she’s nearly ready and you can’t keep the Eucharist from her!” While I do believe she’s nearly if not completely ready, that is not how I did/am/will handle the issue. It does seem like it is the diocese that has made inappropriate rules, but I am open to idea that I’m misguided. I just haven’t been adequately shown that. Which leads to …

Where we go from here:
I think the frustrating part is that we haven’t been heard, just cut off with “the diocese” “the diocese”. We haven’t been shown the error in our understanding. It is a bit reminiscent of my Confirmation classes. When a student said they didn’t believe in the real presence, instead of explaining the reasons why to believe, the response was simply “Don’t say that again or you can’t be confirmed.” The instructors were all well grounded Catholics whose now grown children support that it wasn’t just appearances. Instruct the ignorant–I take that to mean to teach the why’s as well as the what’s. If I’m wrong, hear what I’ve read and what I’m led to understand by it. We’re not supposed to “lean unto our own understanding”. If I’m wrong I wish he’d teach me where I went wrong, not simply say “the diocese”. At the very least show me where Canons and encyclicals say the diocese can make such requirements. But better yet, explain to me how I’ve misinterpreted what I have read. I made an effort to not just pull individual lines, but read what was around them to place them in context. I understand that it still might not be enough. I could still be confused in my conclusions, but take the time to show me. And if this is so prevalent a problem across the nation, why isn’t there a well researched response so he wouldn’t have a ton of time invested each time someone comes with that question. I imagine the same Canons and encyclical quotes come up again and again among those uninterested in CCD yet AREeducating/preparing/forming/catechizing the children at home. The one that I find most striking?–Catechesi Tradendae “67. … In short, without monopolizing or enforcing uniformity, the parish remains, as I have said, the pre-eminent place for catechesis. …”(emphasis mine)
I don’t know that our answers will ever be answered locally. So at this point we will likely enroll her, and one of us will help with the class. I do not think I will find something actually wrong in the materials used. I don’t know who the teacher is or whether there are problems in this particular class, but we probably would pull her out if problems do arise and are not addressed when brought up. (Perhaps one of us would stay on if there are serious problems, and they need the help.) Short of leaving the parish I don’t know what other options we have should it come that point, and that is not something we want to do.
 
Short of leaving the parish I don’t know what other options we have should it come that point, and that is not something we want to do.
That is when you would need to reach out to the Vatican or a canon lawyer, because you shouldn’t have to leave the parish, let alone diocese to find a solution.
 
That is when you would need to reach out to the Vatican or a canon lawyer, because you shouldn’t have to leave the parish, let alone diocese to find a solution.
Sometimes, when one decides that what they want is more important than obedience, a person must leave.
 
Because living in an isolated, nuclear family hovering over and over-protecting our kids is unnatural and unhealthy in my opinion. Like someone said, why belong to the Catholic Church if you trust no one in it? Why not start your own church on your own island. Seriously.🤷

I think these parents are rebellious and disobedient and are most likely wanting to instill their own narrow interpretation of Catholicism in their children, and are fear-filled, and want to raise fear-filled kids, who set themselves apart from the universal church as better. I think there’s a lot of pride involved here.
If you think you can put all home schoolers in the same bucket, you can’t possibly know too many of them. Depicting the whole lot as disobedient or rebellious is unfair. I say this as a parent who teaches RE, who has let other people teach my kids while I taught another class, and who has kids in a non-parochial school. I take the trouble to know who’s teaching my kids. There are cases where I would feel no choice but to do it myself.

I want to address the idea that the nuclear family is somehow a stunting environment for education or child-rearing. That is not necessarily true, any more than the idea that exposure to the entire parish will make a child more secure and well-rounded. I don’t know a home schooler who doesn’t know families who home schooled with disasterous results that the parents would not admit…just like any other school system. It makes the others in the same system cringe, of course! Nevertheless, it depends on the family, the parish school, and the community school, though. Healthy and educated children can come out of all three.
I don’t know where to start…

I think that the Church is in a desert right now, and the whole chatechisis issue is just a symptom of the bigger problem. The parents of today where raised in an environment where CCD was abandoned for a more user friendly Religious Ed. The result is that the instructors, by and large, are well meaning but are themselves poorly catechized. There is a blind-leading-the-blind vibe going on at times. (There are many well trained instructors as well.)

Given that backdrop, I don’t blame people who have already taken the plunge to homeschool to want to extend it to religious ed. I wish they would participate to make it RE better, but. you know, RE is just a reflection of all of the other things that are wrong in the Church - lack of reverence due to a lack of belief.
I’d say that “in the desert” is a bit overstated, unless it is meant in the sense that the Church now, as always, has her issues and attackers. You are right about parents and catechists being far more fact-deficient than in the fairly recent past…as a whole. As above, one can’t make blanket statements. Again, though, would allege this is true for the whole spectrum of education, not just religion. We should remember, though, that in the context of 2,000 years of Church history, our educational standards are fairly high now. There have been times in Church history when men were ordained with less theology under their belts than can be found in the Baltimore catechism series. So we may feel more beset because something of a golden age is so recent in our memory.

The lack of reverence is also a spectrum-wide issue. Just as the sins of baseball legends and presidents past were kept secret, so as to lower the bar for the faithful to keep faith, so it is in the Church. I don’t think it bad that there are less places for darkness to hide, but once respect goes, reverence is not going to be far behind. We are in an age where ugly truths are not given so many hiding places, but because of the way those are revealed, it is flippant and cynical age, too. We haven’t caught up with an adult understanding of how to respect authority while being all too aware of human frailty. As respect goes, so does reverence…show me a disrespectful age or place that was reverent.

At any rate, I totally agree that this deficit is why parents who feel that they cannot responsibly leave their children’s math education in the hands of the parish school logically will feel the same way about religious education. Are there agendas in home schoolers? There is no place in education that free of agendas or politics, hidden and otherwise. I’m not so sure that’s a new thing, either. We could concede the point; it still wouldn’t be relevant. People with agendas still have a right to the sacraments. Somebody has to be left to receive Holy Communion on Sunday, after all. They also have the right and duty, according to Church teaching, to educate their own children.

What about sacramental preparation being a pastoral perogative? It is a real push to imply that it takes two years of Wednesday evenings to prepare a well-educated child to receive the Sacraments. I don’t see how that flies. I do see how it will take a diplomatic parent to make that point with any positive results.
 
Sometimes, when one decides that what they want is more important than obedience, a person must leave.
I fail to see the reference to a want in the post I quoted:
I do not think I will find something actually wrong in the materials used. I don’t know who the teacher is or whether there are problems in this particular class,*** but we probably would pull her out if problems do arise and are not addressed when brought up.*** (Perhaps one of us would stay on if there are serious problems, and they need the help.) Short of leaving the parish I don’t know what other options we have should it come that point, and that is not something we want to do.
Besides, the problem I have is: how is this bound under obedience? No one else has been able to tell me, can you?

I see a situation very similar to the one referred to in this document. If further clarification of the principle that parents are the primary instructors of their children is needed, then lay Catholics have the right (and duty) to make their needs and desires known to the Vatican, and to seek advisement on the matter from a competent canon lawyer.
 
I fail to see the reference to a want in the post I quoted:
I am not surprised as I was not commenting on the post you commented on.
Besides, the problem I have is: how is this bound under obedience? No one else has been able to tell me, can you?
The Church sets up its policies and it is obedience to follow those. One may ask for an exception but the Church is not bound to provide one.
 
From the perspective of the priest and Bishop sacramental preparation is very different from regular catechesis. Are there Canons or encyclicals that make this distinction? I feel like I’ve read hundreds of pages these last few weeks (I’m not the fastest reader which is why I persist in my lack of sleep!), probably around half of it I had read before. However, when I was doing this reading I wasn’t looking for that distinction. Can anybody help me with that?

As to the new priest vs. established at the parish:
This priest is willing to “take the heat” to change other things in the parish to bring it into line with Church teaching. (I’d do cartwheels if I still could! ) My understanding is that he feels she will have already learned everything that will be covered but must take a hard line in obedience to the diocese that she shall attend CCD.

Disobedience:
If I was interested in being disobedient I would have charged in and said “I know she’s nearly ready and you can’t keep the Eucharist from her!” While I do believe she’s nearly if not completely ready, that is not how I did/am/will handle the issue. It does seem like it is the diocese that has made inappropriate rules, but I am open to idea that I’m misguided. I just haven’t been adequately shown that. Which leads to …

Where we go from here:
I think the frustrating part is that we haven’t been heard, just cut off with “the diocese” “the diocese”… Short of leaving the parish I don’t know what other options we have should it come that point, and that is not something we want to do…
I think you’re going to have to go to the diocese and do the legwork of asking them yourself. This can be done with the respectful attitude of not wanting to ask your pastor to research what options are open to you that the diocese will find acceptable. I have found that laying down the frustration and approaching people at the chancery office with the attitude that you think them reasonable people who want to help you and your pastor figure this out to everyone’s satisfaction and in full obedience to the bishop’s wishes, you might have very good luck.

I would be very surprised if your diocese requires children in parish schools to be at sacramental preparation required of children in public schools. Therefore, you may be able to talk to the superintendent of Catholic schools in your diocese and see if the home school curriculum you are using will suffice as the equivalent of a parochial school education, for the purposes of meeting diocesan requirements for sacramental preparation, on the grounds that it is not fair to require your child to repeat the same formal material he or she is already required to master in your home curriculum. Surely there are students in the diocese who attend out-of-parish parochial schools that are in a similar situation of meeting their requirements outside of their home parish programs.

In that case, I would expect that your child would be bound to attend all the retreats and other events required of both the kids in the parish school and the RE program–you probably don’t even have a problem with that–but you may not have to attend the evening classes meant to ensure that catechetical subjects had been covered for non-parochial students.

This does not help the parents in the situation where they feel neither the parish school nor the parish RE program is rigorous enough. They would have to find a parish with a program that meets their needs. It might help home schoolers who have selected an accredited Catholic curriculum, though.

The other possible objection is that you may be taking too much of your pastor’s time with this. You may ask him if there is a retired priest who would be willing to assess your child’s readiness for him, for instance, if that is a sticking point. (I have heard that retired priests are often quite amenable to helping activities that do not require fundraising or being on a committee. 😉 ) Or a seminarian. Or the RE teachers at the parish. Again: be very sympathetic to any downsides experienced from the perspective of those you need on your side.

Do not forget Our Lord’s parable about the widow and the unjust judge! Be very respectful, creative, cheerfully optimistic, and unfailingly persistent…someone all will find impossible to dismiss and yet at the same time very difficult to dislike. Take the stand that you do not have to show there is anything wrong with the parish’s programs in order for there to be nothing wrong with your home schooling. It isn’t a competition. You are just advocating for a reasonable alternative that will not hurt anyone else.

Good luck!
 
The Church sets up its policies and it is obedience to follow those. One may ask for an exception but the Church is not bound to provide one.
I absolutely agree with that statement. I have demonstrated that the policy in the Latin Church is that parents are the primary educators. I have repeatedly asked someone to show that the parish or diocese has the competence to restrict that right. No one has even attempted to do so. The parents, as members of the lay faithful, have the right under canon law (221 in the Latin code, 24 in the Oriental Code) to vindicate their rights under canon law. To suggest, then, that consulting a canon lawyer is disobedience… what does that become? The same for asking for a clarification.

If the bishop wishes the authority to exempt the diocese from upholding the rights and responsibilities of the parents, then of course he is free to ask for such an exemption, but the Church is not bound to provide it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top