Out of 24 pages this is the most OT and thoughtful post yet. Thank you.
This is partially correct and you know itUm, the CCD teachers, that also do sacramental prep, are not professionals.They are parents. Like me. A home schooling mama, who knows her faith:thumbsup:. Now, the DRE at my parish recently told the parents that children can’t really mortally sin. Yep, I sure am glad that she isn’t teaching my kids… even if she would be considered a “professional”.
Also, I do not believe that there is a world of difference between sacramental prep and faith formation. Proper faith formation leads to sacramental prep. I have the books from my parish for sacramental prep (that is home taught), and there is nothing in the entire book for reconciliation or first Holy Communion, that my children have not already been taught because we live our faith and I am properly teaching faith formation.
, if I were a parent in that meeting I would surely have to ask, “You mean before the age of reason, right?” Because once the child reaches the age of reason, 7-8 according to the Church, they can indeed commit a mortal sin. Now, the question arises if they commit as many as someone who is older, probably no because they are still learning so the “full knowledge” aspect of mortal sin is missing.I agree. And I am a fan of homeschooling. We have several wonderful homeschooling parents in our parish , including my daughter.
This happens to us with each of our 4 kids. Unfortunately CATECHISM (faith formation is a weak term) at our parish is HORRIBLE. My children know more about the faith than the director of the program. What we do is attend as a parent to the class. Then when we get home we undo all of the garbage they were fed at class. In this process all of our kids are full aware of dissent in our parish and by the grace of God been instructed properly all the while learning why the CCD program cannot be trusted.
I agree!
There is a slight problem with this “veritable army”. The education of the children lies in two spheres, the parental and the pastoral. The catechists, I suppose, are cooperation in the ministry of the priest in this regard, but an “army” would seem to violate the boundaries of prudence. Would it not be better to build a system to support parents in their role, shifting the activity into that of the lay apostolate? A few catechists can easily assist the priest in verifying the results of parental teaching (something which no one objects to) without running headlong into the complex issues of the boundary between the role of the laity and the role of the clergy.Post 358:
My answer is No, (to your question).
I’m “close-enough,” too, but function is a big factor. N.E.Priest was trying to show a certain level of responsibility for compliance. We’re not all just ad-hoc authorities, and I respectfully submit that some parents are taking the “teach your children” clause farther than it was intended for the communal (One Body) good.
That does not mean that I think the blame for poor catechesis lies at the feet of, let alone originates from, parents. Clearly the h-schooling parents here are trying be to part of the solution, and are reacting (partly) to a vacuum, as opposed to haivng (in general) any motivation to subvert.
This thread has not resulted in agreement, for sure, but one thing is clear, and I’m therefore glad it was opened: Hierarchy, do you hear how low the catechesis in the church is? We need a well-trained veritable army of catechists, vetted by faithful clergy, to comply with standards set by Rome. If parents want to "do it in the home,’ they still, i.m.o., need to have the fruit of that teaching verified by clergy (local administering pastor), as opposed to merely requiring him to take the word of parents. Maybe 90%, maybe 100% of educating parents are doing it correctly, accurately, but it’s still the pastor’s responsibility to ensure that, as opposed to merely trusting.
God bless,
E.
Some people need support from the Church in educating their children in the faith. I certainly needed that support years ago when we were struggling to pay to tuition to send our children to Catholic School and we were being drilled that the primary duty of teaching the faith to the children was the duty of the parents (not the school). I understood that but I needed support from the school and at that time I was not getting it. I see nothing wrong with having a “veritable army” of catechists working for the common purpose of educating our children in the faith.
This is partially correct and you know it
You are absolutely correct. I should have specified, she was talking to the parents that were there for their children’s first reconciliation retreat. She DID mean children that were at least at the age of reason. She was referring to the children sitting there, preparing for their first confession. Telling those parent that those children can’t really mortally sin.
I want to agree with St. Lucy that this is a very well thought out post. Thank you.
Oh, I figured that was the case and that is why my big mouth would have said something
. At the very least she would have to make it clear what her stance is and I would have something to bring to Fr. about what she said, at my Parish this would not have been accepted by any of the Priests we have had and we have had a variety of them from very meek and quiet to ones who are not afraid to say it like it is! I know this is not true everywhere because in my parish in Phoenix the children made their First Communions a year before they made their first Confession! I questioned it in private with the DRE and was told that the children could not understand what sin was until they were roughly in the fourth grade (say what? I did both in Second grade and you better believe I knew what a sin was, unfortunately at the time I was a new mommy and hadn’t gotten my voice yet.)
.) when it comes to approaching your Pastor with your reasonable request.Actually the parish priest has said something similar about children not needing confession much. Last year as children were preparing for their first communion I asked if confession would be available before hand he looked at me like I had two heads.Oh, I figured that was the case and that is why my big mouth would have said something
Truly, I know there are horrible CCD programs out there, I taught some of them because of the books we were using (trust me, I did my best to fill in where I could) and the parents loved me, one year they wanted me to follow their children up to the next grade level!
At my parish the FHC and Confession teachers got together with the DRE and our Pastor and improved the program, they made it a two year process, Grade 2 is First Confession where they have certain parts of the Baltimore Catechism they have to memorize and they learn more thoroughly about the Ten Commandments and how to apply them to their lives. Third grade is First Communion, more Baltimore Catechsim and more knowledge about Jesus in the Eucharist! Confirmation is a two year process for Public School/Private School students and a one year process for Catholic High School and Home Schooled students. We are a tithing Parish so the only thing the parents pay for is the retreat for Confirmation (and if they can not afford it they can get a reduced cost/free depending on what they need).
Some of what is going on at my Parish is supposed to be going on Diocese wide - I do believe that home schooled students don’t have to attend CCD but they do have to present themselves for testing on the specific questions that must be memorized for Confession and First Holy Communion. I don’t know how well this is being implemented.
I do know that there were those like me who did what Fr. expected of us as far as making sure our students went to CCD and there were other home schooling parents who fought tooth and nail using the codes cited here and only made things worse. In the end those like me got things changed because we were able to show the authorities that homeschoolers are not anti-authority and have a point
Keep up the good work and work within the system to get the Diocesan policy changed, then you will have a leg to stand on (actually two
Brenda V.
So I wouldn’t have gotten support from him on the issue, unfortunately.See you are one trying your best given the situation which is awful! I know it is not great everywhere but I do know it got better here, where I have been for 28 years! Phoenix may have changed since I was there (29 years ago) and at the time I don’t recall anyone talking about home schooling etc.Actually the parish priest has said something similar about children not needing confession much. Last year as children were preparing for their first communion I asked if confession would be available before hand he looked at me like I had two heads.
Also, despite my hard core support of home schoolers here who do not want to participate in CCD/sacrament prep, I am turning in homework (even though I think it is silly) on what we’re doing at home with our home based CCD. Though other home schoolers are not. I am not demonstrating any anti-authority behavior. I do not understand why stating that the Church asks this of us would make things worse though. I mean that is an issue with the DRE or parish priest if they want to ignore what the Church asks of us. KWIM? Also, I am not in a parish long enough to see solid changes in how things are done, nor are the parish priests. In fact, in general the DREs are not there long enough to make real changes. So for me and my situation, it only makes sense to serve my family to the best of my ability. Anything I do or say to try to improve the program may not change before I leave, or the parish priest leaves, or the DRE leaves; and once the ones beginning the change move on, then progress grinds to a halt.
On a side note, I’m originally from Phoenix. My family lives there.
Mark,
The presumption there is that such a person is called to classroom style instruction. That cannot be presumed when we are talking about homeschoolers. My wife, for example, is a physicist. She worked well with T.A.’s and one on one’s during office hours. She did not do well with the classroom instruction.
That is what the interviews are for. The pastor, or their delegate, is supposed to interview each child to assess their preparedness.
The various documents and legal rulings from Rome would contradict you. Father noted that we should disregard what Rome has to say in this regard because he feels that it is not reflective of the ‘real world’.