homily for vigil service

[NewEnglandPriest]

With all due respect, Father, when a man is ordained a deacon, be he a permanent one or a transitional one, nowhere in the ordination rite does it state that this is part-time. Granted, there are some deacons who hold regular jobs and there are also some who are retired.

Regardless of the fact that the ordination ritual doesn’t use the term “part time” the reality for many dicoese is that the deacons are indeed part time and they are told before ordination that they will be part time as well. Many parishes can’t afford to pay full time deacons so in many cases they work full time jobs as well as being family men. To think that they are always available for any ministry at any time is illogical and unreasonable.

In any case, unless there is a genuine emergency or the area is so remote that they rarely see clergy, the priests and/or deacons should be doing the vigil.

On this point you’re simply making up your own standards and rules. That’s not what the documents you quote are actually saying.

If there is a bereavement ministry, the ones that I am familiar with either visit the families or have a meal for them after the vigil or the burial. They don’t conduct the rites.

So if you’re not familiar with it then its not legitimate? Regardless of your feelings on the matter, the Order of Christian Funerals envisions the situation and the OP is in that situation. Telling the OP they shouldn’t be there is your interpretation of the how to apply the documents and doesn’t answer the OP’s question.

 

[benedictgal]

Regardless of the fact that the ordination ritual doesn’t use the term “part time” the reality for many dicoese is that the deacons are indeed part time and they are told before ordination that they will be part time as well. You can rail against the wind all you want but its the reality. Many parishes can’t afford to pay full time deacons so in many cases they work full time jobs as well as being family men. To think that they are always available for any ministry at any time is illogical and unreasonable.

On this point you’re simply making up your own standards and rules. That’s not what the documents you quote are actually saying.

So if you’re not familiar with it then its not legitimate? Regardless of your feelings on the matter, the Order of Christian Funerals envisions the situation and the OP is in that situation. Telling the OP they shouldn’t be there is your interpretation of the how to apply the documents and doesn’t answer the OP’s question.

However, Father, with all due respect, the time of death is when families need the clergy the most. It’s not the time to have a lay person step in unless there is a true absence of clergy.

Inasmuch as I can see your argument about the deacon, the priest does not necessarily have the same financial constraint. Again, to simply delegate the vigil to a lay person is to miss a solid pastoral opportunity to reach out to the family.

 

[Chatter163]

Must be nice “down there.” But your experience is not universal.

Having lived in various locations in the Northern and Southern United States, including Florida, New Orleans and Houston, I would never have thought of Laredo as “down there.” In fact, it would have been “up there” from a number of places where I lived.

 

[FAB]

FAB, you also need to read the part about the funeral rites. For the record, I have already stipulated in my will that I do not want any laity “presiding” over my vigil. It will be done in accordance with the Church.

Again, here is what Ecclesia de Mysterio states:

For not a few people, the funeral rites may be the first time (in a long time or any time) that they will have contact with a member of the clergy, priest or deacon. To just leave this to the laity is not good pastorally.

Benedicgal: I have been presiding at funeral vigils for over 2 years as a lay person. It’s why I know it allowable and necessary. I have been perfectly capable of of pastorally guiding families at this time of grief. I also work witht the family to plan the liturgy for the funeral mass, which the family does have contact with the priest. Our priest, although they may not preside at the vigil, as a matter of our parish process are the first ones to speak to the family after a loved one has pasted.

Several of the liturgies I have do were for Catholics very much on the fringe. They didn’t attent mass regularly or at all and may or may not be practicing the faith, even though baptised, yet we are still called in our corpal and spirtitual works of mercy to bury the dead. The fact that as a layman I was able to still walk this path with these families, to help them in their time of need made a difference, I hope in thier lives. It are these work of mercy that make a difference in the world, it is a Catholic , living my faith and folowing Christ’s message.

Peace,
FAB

 

[benedictgal]

Benedicgal: I have been presiding at funeral vigils for over 2 years as a lay person. It’s why I know it allowable and necessary. I have been perfectly capable of of pastorally guiding families at this time of grief. I also work witht the family to plan the liturgy for the funeral mass, which the family does have contact with the priest. Our priest, although they may not preside at the vigil, as a matter of our parish process are the first ones to speak to the family after a loved one has pasted.

Several of the liturgies I have do were for Catholics very much on the fringe. They didn’t attent mass regularly or at all and may or may not be practicing the faith, even though baptised, yet we are still called in our corpal and spirtitual works of mercy to bury the dead. The fact that as a layman I was able to still walk this path with these families, to help them in their time of need made a difference, I hope in thier lives. It are these work of mercy that make a difference in the world, it is a Catholic , living my faith and folowing Christ’s message.

Peace,
FAB

FAB, just because you have “presided” over these, that does not make it right. You are not clergy, at least, not yet (assuming you are still in the diaconate program as previous posts in other threads indicated). The priest should be the one doing the vigil not you.

Speaking with them about planning the funeral is altogether different than actually officiating at the rites. You are also confusing the ministry with a corporal work of mercy. Burying the dead does not mean that you go and do the vigil. It means that you are there praying with the family and, if possible, assisting at Mass with them, accompaying the deceased to the burial plot and praying for the repose of their soul.

This kind of clericalization that I detect in your post, with all due respect, is precisely what documents like Ecclesia de Mysterio is trying to prevent.

 

[FAB]

FAB, just because you have “presided” over these, that does not make it right. You are not clergy, at least, not yet (assuming you are still in the diaconate program as previous posts in other threads indicated). The priest should be the one doing the vigil not you.

Speaking with them about planning the funeral is altogether different than actually officiating at the rites. You are also confusing the ministry with a corporal work of mercy. Burying the dead does not mean that you go and do the vigil. It means that you are there praying with the family and, if possible, assisting at Mass with them, accompaying the deceased to the burial plot and praying for the repose of their soul.

This kind of clericalization that I detect in your post, with all due respect, is precisely what documents like Ecclesia de Mysterio is trying to prevent.

According to the Rite it is right. Yes I am still in formation and as part of the process we are required and expected to preside at funeral vigils.
As much as you may not like it, it is allowed and acceptble.

Peace,
FAB

 

[benedictgal]

According to the Rite it is right. Yes I am still in formation and as part of the process we are required and expected to preside at funeral vigils.
As much as you may not like it, it is allowed and acceptble.

Peace,
FAB

Again, you are ignoring what Ecclesia de Mysterio has stated. The laity should be involved only when there is a true absence of sacred ministers. If the priests have time to meet with the families about the funeral liturgy, then, I believe, they should be able to officiate them as well.

 

[Joannm]

Benedicgal: I have been presiding at funeral vigils for over 2 years as a lay person. It’s why I know it allowable and necessary. I have been perfectly capable of of pastorally guiding families at this time of grief. I also work witht the family to plan the liturgy for the funeral mass, which the family does have contact with the priest. Our priest, although they may not preside at the vigil, as a matter of our parish process are the first ones to speak to the family after a loved one has pasted.

Several of the liturgies I have do were for Catholics very much on the fringe. They didn’t attent mass regularly or at all and may or may not be practicing the faith, even though baptised, yet we are still called in our corpal and spirtitual works of mercy to bury the dead. The fact that as a layman I was able to still walk this path with these families, to help them in their time of need made a difference, I hope in thier lives. It are these work of mercy that make a difference in the world, it is a Catholic , living my faith and folowing Christ’s message.

Peace,
FAB

I commend you for your work with the bereaved. So often, I have seen in my experience, the priests are in and out of the funeral parlor as quickly as possible. Some spend less than 10 minutes at the funeral parlor. This is not to fault them as they have many things to do and often can’t spend much time. In our parish we have enough priests to do the wakes but they usually only go in the afternoon when few people are there and are back doing something else as quickly as possible. It is our MInistry of COnsolation that does the evangelizing, taking time with the family and dealing with their grief.

If there comes a time when we do not have the priests, our Ministry of Consolation is well qualified to lead prayer as many of them do so in the nursing homes in our parish. It is wonderful if only priests or deacons would lead the wake service, but the truth is many of them are just as happy to have well qualified laity do it so they can focus time on other things, like a homily for the funeral, or important parish work. They can have plenty of opportunities to work with the bereaved. COme to think of it. I have heard some priests say that they feel like they are not even wanted at the wake as people talk while the service is being conducted and don’t know the responses and don’t even care that the priest is there. It must be hard to conduct a vigil service when no one is paying attention.

 

[benedictgal]

I commend you for your work with the bereaved. So often, I have seen in my experience, the priests are in and out of the funeral parlor as quickly as possible. Some spend less than 10 minutes at the funeral parlor. This is not to fault them as they have many things to do and often can’t spend much time. In our parish we have enough priests to do the wakes but they usually only go in the afternoon when few people are there and are back doing something else as quickly as possible. It is our MInistry of COnsolation that does the evangelizing, taking time with the family and dealing with their grief.

If there comes a time when we do not have the priests, our Ministry of Consolation is well qualified to lead prayer as many of them do so in the nursing homes in our parish. It is wonderful if only priests or deacons would lead the wake service, but the truth is many of them are just as happy to have well qualified laity do it so they can focus time on other things, like a homily for the funeral, or important parish work. They can have plenty of opportunities to work with the bereaved. COme to think of it. I have heard some priests say that they feel like they are not even wanted at the wake as people talk while the service is being conducted and don’t know the responses and don’t even care that the priest is there. It must be hard to conduct a vigil service when no one is paying attention.

Joanm, with all due respect, what I highlighted in bold is a really sad statement. Their ministry is first and foremost to the flock entrusted to them. The “important parish work” can wait. A friend of mine served as the rector of the Cathedral. He certainly had a lot of “important parish work”, but, he dropped that to do the vigils and the funeral Masses. On those rare occasions that he could not, he had the deacon do the vigil.

What is sadder, still, is that these things have, as I have seen them, led to a clericalization of the laity, something that Ecclesia de Mysterio is trying to prevent. Having a lay person lead the vigil is not the same as having the priest or deacon do it. Even if there seems to not be a response from the mourners in attendance, that should not be seen as a means for the clergy to cop out of their resposibilities. A priest was not ordained to do just “important parish work”. He is ordained first and foremost to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and to tend to the spiritual needs of the faithful who are entrusted to them.

 

[twopekinguys]

Unfortunately, you are still just not getting it.

 

[benedictgal]

Unfortunately, you are still just not getting it.

With all due respect, neither are you. While parish work is important, the ministerial aspect is what the priest was ordained to do.

 

[twopekinguys]

With all due respect, neither are you. While parish work is important, the ministerial aspect is what the priest was ordained to do.

Yes, that is what he was ordained to do. Nobody is disputing that.

But unfortunately, unless you know something the rest of the world doesn’t, a priest, and/or deacon cannot be in two places at the same time.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Unfortunately, you are still just not getting it.

It’s probably time for this thread to die a quiet death. It has gone far afield from the original question and no amount of talking will do anything unless someone is actually listening.

 

[twopekinguys]

It’s probably time for this thread to die a quiet death. It has gone far afield from the original question and no amount of talking will do anything unless someone is actually listening.

I’m afraid you’re right.

 

[benedictgal]

Yes, that is what he was ordained to do. Nobody is disputing that.

But unfortunately, unless you know something the rest of the world doesn’t, a priest, and/or deacon cannot be in two places at the same time.

But, a parish can make other arrangments such as asking a priest from another parish to help, or a deacon from another parish. It does not necessarily have to be the priest or deacon from that parish. Furthermore, the document does not mean a true absence of sacred ministers from the parish. It’s more along the lines of from the city or a similar geographic area.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

However, Father, with all due respect, the time of death is when families need the clergy the most. It’s not the time to have a lay person step in unless there is a true absence of clergy.

I’m not disagreeing with you on that. It is important. But I don’t think there needs to be an absolute dire situation before a layperson can legitimately fill in.
But in the eyes of many here in New England if the priest isn’t able to make it then most wouldn’t care if the replacement is a deacon or a layperson. Simply because the deacon is ordained doesn’t mean much of anything to most people around here.
And if I was unable to make it to the wake service for one of my parishioners, the family would not be “touched” that some strange priest from another parish showed up.

Inasmuch as I can see your argument about the deacon, the priest does not necessarily have the same financial constraint. Again, to simply delegate the vigil to a lay person is to miss a solid pastoral opportunity to reach out to the family.

I don’t necessarily disagree with you. My point is that you don’t need to be in antartica before a layperson can legitimately perform a wake service.

I also don’t think you realize how difficult it can be to get a substitute priest on short notice in some areas. Yes, there can be plenty of priests around but many are also very busy and have their own funerals, masses, meetings, etc. to attend to…

 

[twopekinguys]

But, a parish can make other arrangments such as asking a priest from another parish to help, or a deacon from another parish. It does not necessarily have to be the priest or deacon from that parish. Furthermore, the document does not mean a true absence of sacred ministers from the parish. It’s more along the lines of from the city or a similar geographic area.

You just don’t get it do you?

I don’t know if it is a genuine lack of understanding on your part, or just a refusal to understand.

It doesn’t always work that way.

That is why there are provisions for the laity.

As someone else pointed out, you are trying to spin the document into what you want it to say, as opposed to what it actually says.

I will trust the magesteriums interpretation of the document over yours, thank you very much.

 

[benedictgal]

You just don’t get it do you?

I don’t know if it is a genuine lack of understanding on your part, or just a refusal to understand.

It doesn’t always work that way.

That is why there are provisions for the laity.

As someone else pointed out, you are trying to spin the document into what you want it to say, as opposed to what it actually says.

I will trust the magesteriums interpretation of the document over yours, thank you very much.

With all due respect, you are the one who is trying to spin things. Ecclesia de Mysterio states a “true absence of sacred ministers.” You can’t get any clearer than that. And, that document comes from the Holy See.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

With all due respect, you are the one who is trying to spin things. Ecclesia de Mysterio states a “true absence of sacred ministers.” You can’t get any clearer than that. And, that document comes from the Holy See.

Fr. David makes some interesting points in post #35 regarding just what that document is refering to when it says “funeral rites.”

 

[twopekinguys]

With all due respect, you are the one who is trying to spin things. Ecclesia de Mysterio states a “true absence of sacred ministers.” You can’t get any clearer than that. And, that document comes from the Holy See.

A priest/deacon ministering to someone in the hospital would be “absent”
A priest/deacon ministering to someone in a nursing home would be “absent”
A priest/deacon on retreat would be “absent”

Do you see where this is going?

Again, you have never answered my previous questions. Where exactly do we draw the lines on these things? Do you draw the line, or does the member of the clergy.

You have been given quite a few examples of why the laity would be used.

You have even had members of the clergy tell you that your interpretation is incorrect.

I will trust their judgment a little bit more than yours, if you know what I mean.