homily for vigil service

[MarkThompson]

With all due respect, you are the one who is trying to spin things. Ecclesia de Mysterio states a “true absence of sacred ministers.” You can’t get any clearer than that. And, that document comes from the Holy See.

“True absence” is actually highly unclear. Please not that it doesn’t obviously mean “true unavailability.” It says true absence. If a priest is in the room next door, or is present in the room but unprepared and not vested, I agree it’s obvious that there’s no “true absence” of the priest and a layperson should not lead the vigil. On the other hand, if the priest is a mile away, who’s to say he isn’t truly absent? I mean, he’s not present, is he?

With all due respect, BG, your interpretation is a possible one, but it’s hardly as blindingly pellucid as you’re trying to convince people of.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I wouldlike to point out that in many areaa haveing a vigial Mass is not the custom. Some sort of service ( depending on the family and how devout the deceased) is the norm were I come from. So if it is a vigal Mass that the family is wanting then Yes a priest must be there. If it is not to be a Mass then anyone can take the lead. As for the Funeral serivce itself It must be a Bishop, Priest, or Deacon, reguardless if it is a Mass or not.

 

[Phemie]

I wouldlike to point out that in many areaa haveing a vigial Mass is not the custom. Some sort of service ( depending on the family and how devout the deceased) is the norm were I come from. So if it is a vigal Mass that the family is wanting then Yes a priest must be there. If it is not to be a Mass then anyone can take the lead. As for the Funeral serivce itself It must be a Bishop, Priest, or Deacon, reguardless if it is a Mass or not.

We’re not talking about a vigil Mass but a funeral vigil which is a service held the night before the funeral.

As for the funeral, no, if there is no Mass it doesn’t have to be a bishop, priest or deacon, a lay person can lead a funeral service. In our parish, another woman and I are trained to do all the liturgies that surround a death except, obviously, the Requiem Mass: prayers at the time of death; prayers at the funeral home when the family first gathers in the presence of the body; funeral vigil; prayers when the casket is closed; funeral ritual.

It has to be said that most people don’t want us though, they want a priest. They’ll put up with us up to the time of the funeral, then they want a priest and a Requiem Mass at all cost and when I say ‘at all cost’ I’m not exaggerating. If there is no priest in the parish we are to bring one in at a cost of about $3000 to celebrate a funeral. They couldn’t care less if we have a priest on Sundays and generally, if Fr. is away for a couple of weeks they won’t want to spend the money to bring in a replacement, but let a death happen and then no cost is too high.

 

[benedictgal]

We’re not talking about a vigil Mass but a funeral vigil which is a service held the night before the funeral.

As for the funeral, no, if there is no Mass it doesn’t have to be a bishop, priest or deacon, a lay person can lead a funeral service. In our parish, another woman and I are trained to do all the liturgies that surround a death except, obviously, the Requiem Mass: prayers at the time of death; prayers at the funeral home when the family first gathers in the presence of the body; funeral vigil; prayers when the casket is closed; funeral ritual.

It has to be said that most people don’t want us though, they want a priest. They’ll put up with us up to the time of the funeral, then they want a priest and a Requiem Mass at all cost and when I say ‘at all cost’ I’m not exaggerating. If there is no priest in the parish we are to bring one in at a cost of about $3000 to celebrate a funeral. They couldn’t care less if we have a priest on Sundays and generally, if Fr. is away for a couple of weeks they won’t want to spend the money to bring in a replacement, but let a death happen and then no cost is too high.

Phemie, your situation is precisely what Ecclesia de Mysterio envisioned. You are pretty much out in the middle of nowhere, so to speak.

 

[Phemie]

Phemie, your situation is precisely what Ecclesia de Mysterio envisioned. You are pretty much out in the middle of nowhere, so to speak.

I’m also in an area where Deacons are generally unknown. Out of 11 dioceses/archdioceses there are about 25 deacons, located in 3 or 4 major cities. There were none at all in our province (4 dioceses) according to the 2007 national directory, not sure if that has improved. So if there’s no priest available, it’s laity or nothing. Sisters are witnessing marriages in some communities in our diocese.

We also have the problem that people are not catechized about what a Deacon is and they wouldn’t be satisfied with one for the funeral rites. We had a transitional Deacon from another province sent to our parish for 6 months to learn English and the liturgy committee fought tooth and nail not to have him do any of the things a deacon normally does that a lay person can do in his absence:

“We’re not changing our way of doing things for someone who’ll be gone in 6 months!”

“But he’s a Deacon, that’s his role during the MASS!”

“No, not going to do it. Fine, he reads the Gospel and preaches once in a while, but he’s NOT taking up the Gospel Book and he’s NOT reading the Intercessions.”

Priest let them get away with it. Grrr!

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

We’re not talking about a vigil Mass but a funeral vigil which is a service held the night before the funeral.

QUOTE]

That is the point I was trying to make. since it is not a Mass nor the funeral, an ordained Minister is not needed(Bishop, Priest, or Deacon).

 

[benedictgal]

Phemie;6841958:

We’re not talking about a vigil Mass but a funeral vigil which is a service held the night before the funeral.

QUOTE]

That is the point I was trying to make. since it is not a Mass nor the funeral, an ordained Minister is not needed(Bishop, Priest, or Deacon).

But, the Vigil is part of the funeral rites. I refer you to what I wrote in a previous post from Ecclesia de Mysterio. The priest and/or deacon should be doing the vigil. Furthermore, it is their pastoral responsibility to minister to the family of the bereaved and to pray for the repose of the soul of the deceased.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

oneGODoneCHURCH;6843189:

But, the Vigil is part of the funeral rites. I refer you to what I wrote in a previous post from Ecclesia de Mysterio. The priest and/or deacon should be doing the vigil. Furthermore, it is their pastoral responsibility to minister to the family of the bereaved and to pray for the repose of the soul of the deceased.

Part of there duty to minister to the family ,YES. But they are not required for a vigil serivice.

 

[Melchior_1]

For those keeping score at home we have;

• Two priests who have a history of orthodoxy while posting here saying there isn’t an issue with this.
• Someone who is receiving formation towards becoming a deacon who says there isn’t an issue with this.
• A couple of laymen who are involved in such vigils who say there isn’t an issue with this.
• A couple of laymen who have shared what it is like in their diocese.
• Some Church documents provided from all of the above, and also a plausible interpretation of Ecclesia de Mysterio.

On the other side we have;

• BG quoting her interpretation of Ecclesia de Mysterio.

Just saying is all.

Maybe this thread should be shut down.

 

[benedictgal]

For those keeping score at home we have;

• Two priests who have a history of orthodoxy while posting here saying there isn’t an issue with this.
• Someone who is receiving formation towards becoming a deacon who says there isn’t an issue with this.
• A couple of laymen who are involved in such vigils who say there isn’t an issue with this.
• A couple of laymen who have shared what it is like in their diocese.
• Some Church documents provided from all of the above, and also a plausible interpretation of Ecclesia de Mysterio.

On the other side we have;

• BG quoting her interpretation of Ecclesia de Mysterio.

Just saying is all.

Maybe this thread should be shut down.

Actually, Melchior, I stand by what I have written. What you seem to ignore is that Ecclesia de Mysterio specifically notes that laity should be employed when there is a true absence of sacred ministers.

The sense that I am getting from some in this post is more along the lines of clericalization of the laity.

 

[Melchior_1]

Actually, Melchior, I stand by what I have written. What you seem to ignore is that Ecclesia de Mysterio specifically notes that laity should be employed when there is a true absence of sacred ministers.

The sense that I am getting from some in this post is more along the lines of clericalization of the laity.

I know you stand with what you wrote, otherwise you would not have wrote it.

I think this is less about the clericiization of the laity and more about you’re rigidly adhering to your personal interpretation of Ecclesia de Mysterio to the exclusion of other Church documents (provided by others here), the opinions of clergy, clergy-in-training, and some of the laity alike.

 

[benedictgal]

I know you stand with what you wrote, otherwise you would not have wrote it.

I think this is less about the clericiization of the laity and more about you’re rigidly adhering to your personal interpretation of Ecclesia de Mysterio to the exclusion of other Church documents (provided by others here), the opinions of clergy, clergy-in-training, and some of the laity alike.

It’s not about rigidity, Melchior. It is about the clericalization of the laity, espcially if there are a plethora of clergy who should be leading the service.

 

[Melchior_1]

It’s not about rigidity, Melchior. It is about the clericalization of the laity, espcially if there are a plethora of clergy who should be leading the service.

You’ve had several people give the low-down about the lack of clergy in their areas. Further, you’ve had people point out that this specific part of the vigil doesn’t exactly require clergy. You’ve had clergy actually point this out.

I live in a large city. We have a priest whose ministry is devoted to Anointing of the Sick. Not every place has these kind of resources. In another town, would you rather someone get Last Rites or have the Priest lead this vigil when a layman can do it?

I seriously doubt this is about clericization of the laity. You’d think Father Dave and Father NEP would’ve objected to it on those grounds. I mean, I can understand laity wanting clericization, but clergy?

Unless you’re insinuating something about the clergy in this case.

EDIT: Solution; no more Last Rites. Then that way Priests are free to go to these vigils!

 

[benedictgal]

You’ve had several people give the low-down about the lack of clergy in their areas. Further, you’ve had people point out that this specific part of the vigil doesn’t exactly require clergy. You’ve had clergy actually point this out.

I live in a large city. We have a priest whose ministry is devoted to Anointing of the Sick. Not every place has these kind of resources. In another town, would you rather someone get Last Rites or have the Priest lead this vigil when a layman can do it?

I seriously doubt this is about clericization of the laity. You’d think Father Dave and Father NEP would’ve objected to it on those grounds. I mean, I can understand laity wanting clericization, but clergy?

Unless you’re insinuating something about the clergy in this case.

EDIT: Solution; no more Last Rites. Then that way Priests are free to go to these vigils!

First of all, the sarcasm in your tone is disrespectful, Melchior. I have tried to respond to you with respect, but you have not reciprocated.

Second, Phemie lives in an area where clergy are scarce.

Evidently, you have not read through all of my posts and are picking and choosing instead of looking at the whole.

 

[twopekinguys]

BG, you keep talking about true absence of clergy for these vigils, but yet you have failed to answer my repeated request for clarification.

Where do we draw the line with priests and deacons making sacrifices for this? I also asked who it is that gets to decide this? Yet you have failed to answer these questions.

I also believe that you have failed to address the fact that the Church in her wisdom has made provisions for the laity to participate in the vigil.

You also fail to address the fact that the church says it is desireable for clergy to preside. You have tried to get around this by saying they are clergy, this is what they are to do, but that excuse falls very short.

Let me ask you this.

Why do you think the Church used the word “desireable”?

and

Why do you think the **Church **made a provision for the laity to preside?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Under the most ideal of situtaions we would have clergy leading each and every service. Then funeral vigil is neither a Mass, nor is it a Sacrament, therefore the person leading it does not have to be a cleric. I realize that there are of services that require a Cleric to preside over, however a vigil for a funeral is not one of them.

Now to answer the OP, since it is not a Mass and you are not a cleric, it is not a Homily you will be delivering. As for what is appropreate to say at this serivce that is up to you and the family. Sit down and talk to them.

God Bless you and yours in your time of sorrow.

 

[Melchior_1]

First of all, the sarcasm in your tone is disrespectful, Melchior. I have tried to respond to you with respect, but you have not reciprocated.

Second, Phemie lives in an area where clergy are scarce.

Evidently, you have not read through all of my posts and are picking and choosing instead of looking at the whole.

By accusing me of disrespect when none was intended on my part you’ve just responded with disrespect. But I digress; if you have an issue with me take it to PM’s.

I have read everything posted, and I’m thus far I’m more inclined to agree with the clergy and laity who have commented.

 

[benedictgal]

BG, you keep talking about true absence of clergy for these vigils, but yet you have failed to answer my repeated request for clarification.

Where do we draw the line with priests and deacons making sacrifices for this? I also asked who it is that gets to decide this? Yet you have failed to answer these questions.

I also believe that you have failed to address the fact that the Church in her wisdom has made provisions for the laity to participate in the vigil.

You also fail to address the fact that the church says it is desireable for clergy to preside. You have tried to get around this by saying they are clergy, this is what they are to do, but that excuse falls very short.

Let me ask you this.

Why do you think the Church used the word “desireable”?

and

Why do you think the **Church **made a provision for the laity to preside?

The Church has a provision for the laity to assist at these services when there is a true absence of sacred ministers. That is why that provision exists.

 

[twopekinguys]

The Church has a provision for the laity to assist at these services when there is a true absence of sacred ministers. That is why that provision exists.

What is your definition of “true absence”?

Also, You missed several other questions there didn’t you?

Why do you think the **Church **used the word “desireable”?

 

[SMHW]

For those keeping score at home we have;

…

Actually, I don’t think keeping score by count of people is fruitful.

It seems to me that that the biggest area of dispute is whether or not the vigil service is a “funeral rite”. I have heard only two people, benedictgal and FrDavid96, offer their interpretations of the documents on this one.