Homophobic? Yes or no

[BlueEyedLady]

Stop, stop, stop! I can no longer bear to have such disagreements with someone who quotes my hero Fred Rogers. “Rude” has nothing to do with it. It’s a different way of looking at the world, and the OP is not on here to learn how to use which fork to use or how long after a wedding it is acceptable to write a thank-you note. She is trying to raise a Catholic child. Please consider this.

“When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, "Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.”
― Fred Rogers

My screen saver is a collage of Mr. Roger’s quotes. Absolutely one of my favorite and most inspirational people ever. It’s amazing how people can view some things so differently but have little things like that in common.

She can raise a Catholic child all she wants. But she can’t control how her MIL views and talks about her own son. So instead of having repeated confrontations she needs to decide for herself, either let the MIL do what she wants or keep away.

 

[90Domer]

Getting back to the matter at hand.

It’s unlikely you’re going to get your MIL to sway on this issue, so you’re in for rough times. I’m also not sure it’s fair on either of you, frankly. You can raise your son however you want. For her part, it’s probably not possible to switch between viewing a relationship her son has as completely acceptable to turning around and viewing it as an abomination when your son is around. So, we’re back at square one.

Your husband is also in a terrible situation here, as he is caught between you + his faith and his mother and brother.

Have you consulted a Priest?

Hubby is caught between neither. He is firmly on my side. And I have spoken to at least six priests on this subject who told me, for all intents and purposes, that MIL is a lost soul and to pray for her but to stand our ground…that we are doing an excellent job raising our son.

MIL and BIL were never too charitable to my hubby, who was seen as the goofy black sheep in the family. He was never close to them, so the only thing that pains him is the possible fate of their souls.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I’m aware of Mr. Phelps and his “organization”. He is an extreme example that doesn’t apply to most. There is a difference between plain homophobia and sheer insanity.

BTW… hasn’t God been known to cast judgment on whole peoples and nations, indeed the whole planet, for their sins? I think you’ll find that to be true from scripture.

Just something to think about.

I couldn’t find any references to that in the New Testament, but if it makes you feel any better to think that your God is killing innocent people because of the gays, then be my guest.

 

[90Domer]

I’m basing this on my understanding of Miss Manners, whom I suppose is canonical in her way, and certainly secular, as the poster referred to is.

I would not have chosen to disinivIte the in-law and his friend from my wedding, but neither would I condone holding a grudge for nearly two decades.

I did not disinvite my BIL. He was in our wedding. I only asked that he refrain from bringing his partner so as to avoid scandal at my wedding. I didn’t need any extra stress.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Do you know the definition of scandal? Well, neither I or my husband will entertain it. At a highly Catholic and orthodox wedding performed by my highly orthodox uncle and another professor with highly orthodox friends and relatives, having an openly SSA BIL and his partner would cause scandal by allowing people to think that we accept and affirm that lifestyle.

Yeah, what I’m telling you is that if you expect someone to just “get over it” for being treated like that then you are deluding yourself.

I did not disinvite my BIL. He was in our wedding. I only asked that he refrain from bringing his partner so as to avoid scandal at my wedding. I didn’t need any extra stress.

OK, but be realistic about this. If a family member invited you to their wedding but did not invite your husband specifically because they viewed your relationship as inferior/invalid, then would you go? Or would it, you know, make you pretty angry for a good long while?

I’m not saying it was the wrong choice. It’s up to you. If you feel like you made the right choice then good for you. I’m just saying that the results are entirely predictable

90Domer:

Hubby is caught between neither. He is firmly on my side. And I have spoken to at least six priests on this subject who told me, for all intents and purposes, that MIL is a lost soul and to pray for her but to stand our ground…that we are doing an excellent job raising our son.

MIL and BIL were never too charitable to my hubby, who was seen as the goofy black sheep in the family. He was never close to them, so the only thing that pains him is the possible fate of their souls.

Sorry, by “in the middle” I didn’t mean that he agrees with them. I know he agrees with you.

What I meant was that the option of cutting off all ties with his mother and brother might be painful for him. But if it’s not, and if it’s true as you say that he is not close to them, then maybe that’s what you’re going to have to do.

 

[90Domer]

Well, that is certainly true. There are many people from my past whom I love, pray for, wish well for, remember with affection and all that good stuff, but choose not to be around because we have become so different that it would be immensely uncomfortable for both. Perhaps this is one such situation. The ideal, maybe, would be that the OP could make the decision to remain apart out of love rather than anger.

No, we do not keep BIL away from son. We only ask that he and MIL respect our wishes in how we want to raise our son. My goodness, is it that hard to talk about something other than the relationship my BIL is in?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Domer: I would advise consulting a Priest about this, at this point. He can give you better advice than we can.

 

[90Domer]

The non-invite to the wedding was less of a snub than then the non-attendance at a baptism, which presumably followed the wedding in chronological order? That’s a rather transparent attempt at deflection, wouldn’t you say?

BIL and partner were invited and attended baptism, TYVM. So no, don’t judge until you ask the questions and know the history. Rather presumptuous of you, jumping to conclusions. So, no, I was not deflecting anything. And why did I invite the 2 to the baptism and not the wedding…because there was less opportunity for scandal.

Listen, they’re crapping on their own blood relatives more than on me. I am trying to come up with a tolerable solution for MIL to see her grandson before she leaves this world. But confusing son by referring to Uncle X and his husband is not tolerable.

 

[Chrisl6901]

I couldn’t find any references to that in the New Testament, but if it makes you feel any better to think that your God is killing innocent people because of the gays, then be my guest.

Try Revelation, the scroll judgements, the bowl judgements, or the Old Testament. Lots of it there: e.g., destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah, The Flood, the Jewish conquest and cleansing, the destruction of the temple, Israel and the expulsion of the Jews, etc. You don’t think any “innocent” people perished in any of those do you?

I apologize if I implied that God only did these things because of homosexuals (although the Sodom & Gomorrah incident is a strong case for that). There are all kinds of sins besides homosexuality going on that God will judge us and other nations for.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

BIL and partner were invited and attended baptism, TYVM. So no, don’t judge until you ask the questions and know the history. Rather presumptuous of you, jumping to conclusions. So, no, I was not deflecting anything. And why did I invite the 2 to the baptism and not the wedding…because there was less opportunity for scandal.

You make it sound as if you were doing them a favor. LOL.

Listen, they’re crapping on their own blood relatives more than on me. I am trying to come up with a tolerable solution for MIL to see her grandson before she leaves this world. But confusing son by referring to Uncle X and his husband is not tolerable.

Talk to a Priest, and I’ll be praying for you and your son.

 

[HouseArrest]

Is it entirely necessary to reiterate your position every time your MIL asks you to stay in the same house as the BIL and his partner? I can see that you wouldn’t want to cause scandal if there are people around when this happens, but how often do you have an audience when she invites you? Can you just say, “No thanks”?

I am a firm believer in the fact that you don’t need to repeat your stance over and over and over again. Sometimes that just creates an angry atmosphere and actually takes away from your message.

And as far as your son hearing your MIL talk about the BIL and his partner as “married”, can’t you just tell your son, privately, that Grandma is just plain wrong? When he is old enough, can you suggest that she could be struggling with this as a Catholic? She loves her son and can’t change his behavior, so maybe she is compensating in some way. Maybe.

By the way I don’t think you fit the definition of a homophobe.

AND - didn’t anyone watch the Fonze? He used to say “sit on it an rotate” all the time. And I also thought it was a sit 'n spin he was talking about.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Try Revelation, or the Old Testament. Lots of it there: e.g., destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah, The Flood, the Jewish conquest and cleansing, the destruction of the temple, Israel and the expulsion of the Jews, etc. You don’t think any “innocent” people perished in any of those do you?
.

Then Jesus came, and lo, nothing changed.

 

[90Domer]

Yeah, what I’m telling you is that if you expect someone to just “get over it” for being treated like that then you are deluding yourself.

OK, but be realistic about this. If a family member invited you to their wedding but did not invite your husband specifically because they viewed your relationship as inferior/invalid, then would you go? Or would it, you know, make you pretty angry for a good long while?

I’m not saying it was the wrong choice. It’s up to you. If you feel like you made the right choice then good for you. I’m just saying that the results are entirely predictable

Sorry, by “in the middle” I didn’t mean that he agrees with them. I know he agrees with you.

What I meant was that the option of cutting off all ties with his mother and brother might be painful for him. But if it’s not, and if it’s true as you say that he is not close to them, then maybe that’s what you’re going to have to do.

He is more concerned about raising a faithful Catholic. Any pain is greatly tempered by knowing he is doing the right thing.

And, well, we still stand by our original invite. And I do think I did the right thing. But you didn’t answer my question. Do you know what scandal is?

 

[90Domer]

You make it sound as if you were doing them a favor. LOL.

Talk to a Priest, and I’ll be praying for you and your son.

No, it’s meant to sound like you know little about me and are jumping to false conclusions.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

He is more concerned about raising a faithful Catholic. Any pain is greatly tempered by knowing he is doing the right thing.

And, well, we still stand by our original invite. And I do think I did the right thing.

Like I said, good for you. Just don’t expect them to be happy about it.

But you didn’t answer my question. Do you know what scandal is?

I sure do.

No, it’s meant to sound like you know little about me and are jumping to false conclusions.

There is nothing I could say in response to this that wouldn’t be sarcastic and rude, and as I’ve already been enough of those things, I’ll just leave it be.

 

[90Domer]

Is it entirely necessary to reiterate your position every time your MIL asks you to stay in the same house as the BIL and his partner? I can see that you wouldn’t want to cause scandal if there are people around when this happens, but how often do you have an audience when she invites you? Can you just say, “No thanks”?

I am a firm believer in the fact that you don’t need to repeat your stance over and over and over again. Sometimes that just creates an angry atmosphere and actually takes away from your message.

And as far as your son hearing your MIL talk about the BIL and his partner as “married”, can’t you just tell your son, privately, that Grandma is just plain wrong? When he is old enough, can you suggest that she could be struggling with this as a Catholic? She loves her son and can’t change his behavior, so maybe she is compensating in some way. Maybe.

By the way I don’t think you fit the definition of a homophobe.

AND - didn’t anyone watch the Fonze? He used to say “sit on it an rotate” all the time. And I also thought it was a sit 'n spin he was talking about.

Um, with my MIL, yes. She will see our lack of a “no thanks” as a “it’s OK to do.”

My son is autistic. No, it is not that simple to say that Grandma is wrong. His ability to read the social environs around him are horrible. He would be confused and continually question what, right now, he cannot hope to understand. Heck, we are still working (going on 6 months) on the social skill about why he should stay away from the class bully versus trying to get bully to like you. That is life on the spectrum.

Before I turn in, this needs to be said. The way my FIL and MIL handled their son coming out of the proverbial closet was terrible. They started bad mouthing (and perhaps bullying) people who did not support their son’s sexuality. My FIL, before he died, would bring up the subject and then randomly pick fights with people who did not support his son (and I am talking the physical part of his relationship). Not only did he do this to friends, he did it to his two other sons and their wives. Now you have a family that is completely torn apart because the four of us did not believe the SS relations are perfectly OK.

So why do I care to attempt to reconcile with MIL? Well, she is getting up in age (76) and not in the best of health. We would like to have her see our son. However, we cannot arrange a visit without SSA BIL butting in and insisting he be there with his partner. And we have tried the civil route saying that we will just stay at a motel rather than her apartment in an attempt to make the trip more doable. She will follow with a snarky comment along the lines of “you’re throwing away your money on a hotel when you can stay with me for free? Then don’t complain about therapy bills.” She sees our not staying there as a rejection of her. In a way, it is. We reject her premise on how to house SSA partners.

What I have learned is that my SIL wanting to have a family reunion is just not going to work. I came here hoping that someone would have a similar experience or at least tell me that it’s better to be a faithful Catholic than affirm another’s sins to avoid hurt feelings. A few people did affirm that, but I got enough taste of the other to learn that, when it comes to SSA, you best avoid the situation versus hoping someone who doesn’t agree with respect your wishes.
I will choose to avoid and just continue to pray. That’s the safest.

 

[90Domer]

Like I said, good for you. Just don’t expect them to be happy about it.

I sure do.

There is nothing I could say in response to this that wouldn’t be sarcastic and rude, and as I’ve already been enough of those things, I’ll just leave it be.

I worry more about their souls than there happiness. Hubby and I are not sentimentalists, and we feel that is where true love lies…trying to get family members to Heaven. I never said or thought my decision would be popular. But I did want it to be holy. Have a good night.

 

[90Domer]

Like I said, good for you. Just don’t expect them to be happy about it.

I sure do.

There is nothing I could say in response to this that wouldn’t be sarcastic and rude, and as I’ve already been enough of those things, I’ll just leave it be.

Final thought? Do you not think that having BIL and partner there would cause scandal? And if not, why not? I am truly curious about this because it was a no brainer for us.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

**Um, with my MIL, yes. She will see our lack of a “no thanks” as a “it’s OK to do.” **

My son is autistic. No, it is not that simple to say that Grandma is wrong. His ability to read the social environs around him are horrible. He would be confused and continually question what, right now, he cannot hope to understand. Heck, we are still working (going on 6 months) on the social skill about why he should stay away from the class bully versus trying to get bully to like you. That is life on the spectrum.

Before I turn in, this needs to be said. The way my FIL and MIL handled their son coming out of the proverbial closet was terrible. They started bad mouthing (and perhaps bullying) people who did not support their son’s sexuality. My FIL, before he died, would bring up the subject and then randomly pick fights with people who did not support his son (and I am talking the physical part of his relationship). Not only did he do this to friends, he did it to his two other sons and their wives. Now you have a family that is completely torn apart because the four of us did not believe the SS relations are perfectly OK.

So why do I care to attempt to reconcile with MIL? Well, she is getting up in age (76) and not in the best of health. We would like to have her see our son. However, we cannot arrange a visit without SSA BIL butting in and insisting he be there with his partner. And we have tried the civil route saying that we will just stay at a motel rather than her apartment in an attempt to make the trip more doable. **She will follow with a snarky comment along the lines of “you’re throwing away your money on a hotel when you can stay with me for free? Then don’t complain about therapy bills.” She sees our not staying there as a rejection of her. ** In a way, it is. We reject her premise on how to house SSA partners.

What I have learned is that my SIL wanting to have a family reunion is just not going to work. I came here hoping that someone would have a similar experience or at least tell me that it’s better to be a faithful Catholic than affirm another’s sins to avoid hurt feelings. A few people did affirm that, but I got enough taste of the other to learn that, when it comes to SSA, you best avoid the situation versus hoping someone who doesn’t agree with respect your wishes.
I will choose to avoid and just continue to pray. That’s the safest.

Bolding mine. It was suggested that you just say “No thanks”, not that you don’t. The person you are responding to wanted you to say “No thanks” without ranting about your position.

All mothers say that. My grandma said that when her kids visited and wanted a hotel for everyone’s comfort (own bathroom, more quiet, etc), my mom says that when I go home and stay in a hotel for the same reasons, and of course my soon to be MIL says it. All parents want their children close and all are hurt when they hear that their kids will be staying elsewhere, no matter what the reason, moral or logistical. Don’t get upset about that.

 

[90Domer]

Bolding mine. It was suggested that you just say “No thanks”, not that you don’t. The person you are responding to wanted you to say “No thanks” without ranting about your position.

All mothers say that. My grandma said that when her kids visited and wanted a hotel for everyone’s comfort (own bathroom, more quiet, etc), my mom says that when I go home and stay in a hotel for the same reasons, and of course my soon to be MIL says it. All parents want their children close and all are hurt when they hear that their kids will be staying elsewhere, no matter what the reason, moral or logistical. Don’t get upset about that.

By “civil route” we meant that we did not bring up our reservations. It is only when we could not convince her that we had to reveal why. She would not take no for an answer.