Homophobic? Yes or no

[BlueEyedLady]

By “civil route” we meant that we did not bring up our reservations. It is only when we could not convince her that we had to reveal why. She would not take no for an answer.

“Everyone would be more comfortable”. “This is what we feel is best”. “We will be over in time to help you with breakfast”. Repeat ad nauseum.

I too have a (future) MIL who won’t take no for an answer and is hurt when we don’t stay with her. But we live together and have been together for years and she insists that we sleep apart. So we get a hotel for our comfort. We haven’t told her why this is, but we just keep saying “No, everyone will be more comfortable this way”. It’s true too. We’ll be more comfortable sleeping together, we’ll be able to unwind and talk privately at the end of a long day, and there won’t be so many people using one bathroom! But we sound like a broken record, but it’s better than getting into why we should or should not share a bed. No one forces you to say anything you don’t want, just “No, this will be more comfortable, the room has already been paid for, and that’s that”.

 

[90Domer]

BEL,

We are going to have to agree to disagree. We don’t “rant” about our position, but we do explain it. MIL just plain 'ol thinks the CC is wrong and that we should feel the same. We don’t. We politely let her know that. She doesn’t like that and pushes buttons to try to get us to change our minds. We won’t, so she starts flinging nastiness at us.

And don’t think my husband hasn’t brought this up to her–he has talked to her more than I ever will on this topic. And he’s her son and she flings nastiness at him. He’s head of the family, and he sets the rules with his family. I comply. Personally, I don’t give a rat’s rump anymore about how this plays out. I was trying to accommodate my SIL, who was hoping for a reunion. I feel MIL is showing favoritism in the family. I still cannot understand why one son’s feelings reign supreme over another’s.

 

[90Domer]

“Everyone would be more comfortable”. “This is what we feel is best”. “We will be over in time to help you with breakfast”. Repeat ad nauseum.

I too have a (future) MIL who won’t take no for an answer and is hurt when we don’t stay with her. But we live together and have been together for years and she insists that we sleep apart. So we get a hotel for our comfort. We haven’t told her why this is, but we just keep saying “No, everyone will be more comfortable this way”. It’s true too. We’ll be more comfortable sleeping together, we’ll be able to unwind and talk privately at the end of a long day, and there won’t be so many people using one bathroom! But we sound like a broken record, but it’s better than getting into why we should or should not share a bed. No one forces you to say anything you don’t want, just “No, this will be more comfortable, the room has already been paid for, and that’s that”.

We don’t think this is a battle we should have to fight, and we just wouldn’t handle it like you. I get it…you are nicer than me. Hubby and I are the bit$$es in the family. And once again, if pushed, we will not affirm someone in their sinful thoughts or ways. This is supposed to be a Catholic family, not a secular family. She knows the teaching of the Church and chooses to turn her back on them. She hates the fact that we want to raise a faithful kid. Sorry, but getting my kid to Heaven (and her too, actually) trumps her feelings. Period.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

BEL,

We are going to have to agree to disagree. We don’t “rant” about our position, but we do explain it. MIL just plain 'ol thinks the CC is wrong and that we should feel the same. We don’t. We politely let her know that. She doesn’t like that and pushes buttons to try to get us to change our minds. We won’t, so she starts flinging nastiness at us.

And don’t think my husband hasn’t brought this up to her–he has talked to her more than I ever will on this topic. And he’s her son and she flings nastiness at him. He’s head of the family, and he sets the rules with his family. I comply. Personally, I don’t give a rat’s rump anymore about how this plays out. I was trying to accommodate my SIL, who was hoping for a reunion. I feel MIL is showing favoritism in the family. I still cannot understand why one son’s feelings reign supreme over another’s.

She’s heard it over and over again. You’ll all be happier if you stop bringing it up and just say no. But I really think that you just like preaching to her and thinking that you have the upper hand morally. I can’t think of any reason why you would keep arguing about this instead of just doing what would make everyone the most comfortable. If you really want a relationship free of drama with her you’ll just agree to disagree and do what makes you comfortable rather than continuing to engage her hoping to change her mind or prove that you are “right”.

I could do the same thing with my MIL. I could argue with her about how she’s wrong, about how her religion is wrong, etc. Or, I could just firmly say no, leave, and come over the next day to take her out to brunch. Either way I’m sleeping comfortably in a hotel, but one course of action will have very poor consequences. The other may make us strained for a little while, but it won’t lead to tension and hostility over deeply held personal beliefs.

 

[90Domer]

“Everyone would be more comfortable”. “This is what we feel is best”. “We will be over in time to help you with breakfast”. Repeat ad nauseum.

I too have a (future) MIL who won’t take no for an answer and is hurt when we don’t stay with her. But we live together and have been together for years and she insists that we sleep apart. So we get a hotel for our comfort. We haven’t told her why this is, but we just keep saying “No, everyone will be more comfortable this way”. It’s true too. We’ll be more comfortable sleeping together, we’ll be able to unwind and talk privately at the end of a long day, and there won’t be so many people using one bathroom! But we sound like a broken record, but it’s better than getting into why we should or should not share a bed. No one forces you to say anything you don’t want, just “No, this will be more comfortable, the room has already been paid for, and that’s that”.

Final thing. Do you think we like being bullied by her because we choose to be faithful Catholics? Do you think we like hearing her rants as to how the Church has it wrong? Do you think we like it when she resorts to name-calling and talking behind our backs when she cannot make headway with us? Frankly, she has a nasty mouth and a sharp tongue. If she wasn’t related to my hubby I would be running so fast in the opposite direction it would not be funny. The hoped for family reunion will continue to be a pipe dream.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

We don’t think this is a battle we should have to fight, and we just wouldn’t handle it like you. I get it…you are nicer than me. Hubby and I are the bit$$es in the family. And once again, if pushed, we will not affirm someone in their sinful thoughts or ways. This is supposed to be a Catholic family, not a secular family. She knows the teaching of the Church and chooses to turn her back on them. She hates the fact that we want to raise a faithful kid. Sorry, but getting my kid to Heaven (and her too, actually) trumps her feelings. Period.

There is a difference between not condemning at every turn and affirming. And continuing to push and argue on this point is pushing her further away. Calmly saying no and “we’ve been through this before and the answer is still no” will get you further.

You may think it’s supposed to be a Catholic family, but once again, her religion/beliefs/practices are not yours to dictate.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Final thing. Do you think we like being bullied by her because we choose to be faithful Catholics? Do you think we like hearing her rants as to how the Church has it wrong? Do you think we like it when she resorts to name-calling and talking behind our backs when she cannot make headway with us? Frankly, she has a nasty mouth and a sharp tongue. If she wasn’t related to my hubby I would be running so fast in the opposite direction it would not be funny. The hoped for family reunion will continue to be a pipe dream.

I see a lot of problems on both sides, not just hers. No one should be ranting, talking behind backs, or name-calling. That goes for everyone. No one should be telling anyone else how to treat or refer to their children. No one needs to start an argument with the other.

Basically you can choose to be the bigger person and either without spite or anger just decide it’s better if you stay apart, or without anger or spite decide to draw a line in the sand and refuse to argue.

But from the sounds of this both sides are fueling this.

 

[90Domer]

She’s heard it over and over again. You’ll all be happier if you stop bringing it up and just say no. But I really think that you just like preaching to her and thinking that you have the upper hand morally. I can’t think of any reason why you would keep arguing about this instead of just doing what would make everyone the most comfortable. If you really want a relationship free of drama with her you’ll just agree to disagree and do what makes you comfortable rather than continuing to engage her hoping to change her mind or prove that you are “right”.

I could do the same thing with my MIL. I could argue with her about how she’s wrong, about how her religion is wrong, etc. Or, I could just firmly say no, leave, and come over the next day to take her out to brunch. Either way I’m sleeping comfortably in a hotel, but one course of action will have very poor consequences. The other may make us strained for a little while, but it won’t lead to tension and hostility over deeply held personal beliefs.

Actually, I have not communicated with her in nearly a year. She pushes our buttons, not the other way around.

And we’re talking about her eternal salvation here for goodness sake. She’s trying to lead us away from God. We don’t want to be lead away. We are all supposed to be Catholic. I can not and will not change my thoughts on this teaching. You can’t seem to get the point that what she is asking us to do is sinful. And what she espouses is sinful and against everything she learned as a Catholic.

Are you saying I should compromise my faith to make her happy? I won’t, especially if I know it will ruin my shot at Heaven.

 

[90Domer]

I see a lot of problems on both sides, not just hers. No one should be ranting, talking behind backs, or name-calling. That goes for everyone. No one should be telling anyone else how to treat or refer to their children. No one needs to start an argument with the other.

Basically you can choose to be the bigger person and either without spite or anger just decide it’s better if you stay apart, or without anger or spite decide to draw a line in the sand and refuse to argue.

But from the sounds of this both sides are fueling this.

That is what we want to do, but other family members were trying to broker a reconciliation. It won’t happen. Probably for the best.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Actually, I have not communicated with her in nearly a year. She pushes our buttons, not the other way around.

And we’re talking about her eternal salvation here for goodness sake. She’s trying to lead us away from God. We don’t want to be lead away. We are all supposed to be Catholic. I can not and will not change my thoughts on this teaching. You can’t seem to get the point that what she is asking us to do is sinful. And what she espouses is sinful and against everything she learned as a Catholic.

Are you saying I should compromise my faith to make her happy? I won’t, especially if I know it will ruin my shot at Heaven.

No, I’m saying that she knows how you feel. You should not give in to make her happy, but you should firmly, calmly, and without incident stay in a hotel. If she tries to engage you in conflict just shut it down.

But an argument won’t save her soul.

By the way, fraternal correction is supposed to be done when you have reason to believe that the person will be receptive. At this point you know she won’t be, so what’s the point except to make yourself feel better?

 

[PaulGH]

Do you know the definition of scandal? Well, neither I or my husband will entertain it. At a highly Catholic and orthodox wedding performed by my highly orthodox uncle and another professor with highly orthodox friends and relatives, having an openly SSA BIL and his partner would cause scandal by allowing people to think that we accept and affirm that lifestyle.

I very much agreed with your attitude toward your mother-in-law, as you described it in your earlier posts, and I don’t think it makes you “homophobic” (whatever that really means). However, I don’t agree that allowing your brother-in-law to bring his partner necessarily would have caused scandal in the way that you mentioned here. It seems to me that you could have sent BIL an invitation that included him and an unnamed guest. That would have put the onus on BIL as to who to bring, and thus it would not have been your responsibility if he brought his homosexual partner. (And you could have sent invitations for “N. and Guest” for all unmarried friends/relatives, in order to be consistent.)

That’s my two cents, but it is a judgment call, and I guess it doesn’t matter now since it’s in the past.

 

[JackieMom]

I’d bet the majority of us have family members living in a disappointing situation from a religious standpoint. I know I have several! I guess I feel that there is a nuanced and gentle way to maintain one’s standards and keep family peace. Saying you’re not sentimental and are okay with being the jerks of the family seems untrue - you do care about these people and your relationships with them. Do you feel the only way to handle this is by drawing a hard line and voicing strong views you already know are not going to be well-recieved? That seems unproductive and unkind to me.

You’ve corrected them fraternally, your duty is done. They know exactly where you stand. In my opinion, not letting your BIL bring his friend to your wedding was pretty harsh and probably caused some deeply hurt feelings. I do not see at all how that was the right thing to do, unless they had indicated that they would display inappropriate behavior during the wedding. But that ship has sailed. Stay in a hotel when you visit if the BIL and partner will be sleeping together in the home. Don’t debate it, just do it. If your MIL tells your son intimate details about his uncle, simply take him to another room for a snack.

If she is truly crazy, and needles you into argument despite your desire not to engage, say, “Mom, you know what we believe, can we let this go?” If she won’t, then maybe it’s time for severely limited or no contact. If she is that antagonistic and that nuts, it may be your only option.

Believe me, I am not in favor of gay behaviors. I believe as the Church does. But those opinions do not define me. There is always a way to maintain your values with tact, sensitivity and charity. It seems like you either need to figure that out, or let the relationships with your in-laws go if they refuse to agree to disagree like adults.

 

[CatholicSheila]

Do you know the definition of scandal? Well, neither I or my husband will entertain it. At a highly Catholic and orthodox wedding performed by my highly orthodox uncle and another professor with highly orthodox friends and relatives, having an openly SSA BIL and his partner would cause scandal by allowing people to think that we accept and affirm that lifestyle.

I’m curious, did you single out your BIL and his partner or did you choose not to invite anyone who openly sins? Were there any couples there who weren’t married, or who had a child out of wedlock? Anyone divorced and remarried?

I 100% agree with what the church teaches on homosexuality. I’m SAA myself and I choose to remain single and celibate in line with that teaching.

And yes, to answer your first question, you are definitely coming across as homophobic to me.

I applaud you for wanting to teach your son the rights and wrongs of homosexuality, but you don’t get to dictate how your family treat your BIL. If this is such a ‘no discussion’ topic (and I agree you get to make that call for your son) then it is your responsibility to ensure that he isn’t exposed to it. That may mean you have to minimise contact with your in-laws. Otherwise, you have to do what the rest of society does. Teach your son that sin exists, that some people support it but that doesn’t make it right. That is made more difficult by his autism and of course that is going to influence whether removing him from the family is the right decision or not.

 

[90Domer]

There is a difference between not condemning at every turn and affirming. And continuing to push and argue on this point is pushing her further away. Calmly saying no and “we’ve been through this before and the answer is still no” will get you further.

You may think it’s supposed to be a Catholic family, but once again, her religion/beliefs/practices are not yours to dictate.

Where did you get the idea that we condemn at every turn? I never said that nor do we do that.

The fact is, she knows we are trying to raise our son a faithful Catholic, knows the teachings, and should respect our wishes or disinvite us.

 

[90Domer]

I very much agreed with your attitude toward your mother-in-law, as you described it in your earlier posts, and I don’t think it makes you “homophobic” (whatever that really means). However, I don’t agree that allowing your brother-in-law to bring his partner necessarily would have caused scandal in the way that you mentioned here. It seems to me that you could have sent BIL an invitation that included him and an unnamed guest. That would have put the onus on BIL as to who to bring, and thus it would not have been your responsibility if he brought his homosexual partner. (And you could have sent invitations for “N. and Guest” for all unmarried friends/relatives, in order to be consistent.)

That’s my two cents, but it is a judgment call, and I guess it doesn’t matter now since it’s in the past.

Well, I could have, but it was causing big fights, so I chose the conservative route. If I thought this BIL would use good judgement, I would have. However, he was and is the type to use occasions as such to make a statement. I did not want that at my wedding. Wasn’t going to take that chance.

 

[90Domer]

I’d bet the majority of us have family members living in a disappointing situation from a religious standpoint. I know I have several! I guess I feel that there is a nuanced and gentle way to maintain one’s standards and keep family peace. Saying you’re not sentimental and are okay with being the jerks of the family seems untrue - you do care about these people and your relationships with them. Do you feel the only way to handle this is by drawing a hard line and voicing strong views you already know are not going to be well-recieved? That seems unproductive and unkind to me.

You’ve corrected them fraternally, your duty is done. They know exactly where you stand. In my opinion, not letting your BIL bring his friend to your wedding was pretty harsh and probably caused some deeply hurt feelings. I do not see at all how that was the right thing to do, unless they had indicated that they would display inappropriate behavior during the wedding. But that ship has sailed. Stay in a hotel when you visit if the BIL and partner will be sleeping together in the home. Don’t debate it, just do it. If your MIL tells your son intimate details about his uncle, simply take him to another room for a snack.

If she is truly crazy, and needles you into argument despite your desire not to engage, say, “Mom, you know what we believe, can we let this go?” If she won’t, then maybe it’s time for severely limited or no contact. If she is that antagonistic and that nuts, it may be your only option.

Believe me, I am not in favor of gay behaviors. I believe as the Church does. But those opinions do not define me. There is always a way to maintain your values with tact, sensitivity and charity. It seems like you either need to figure that out, or let the relationships with your in-laws go if they refuse to agree to disagree like adults.

Well, let me just tell you what was going to happen. He was going to announce that he and his partner dropped their last names and chose a new, mutual last name. I did not fully wrote about the extent of antics he had planned to protest where my wedding was, which was where I went to school. My husband agreed and it was his brother. This is a guy who really likes to draw attention to himself, and he doesn’t always make good choices. As it was, he missed his flight home because he passed out from drinking somewhere in the hotel. Thank goodness hubby and I checked out by then.

 

[90Domer]

I’m curious, did you single out your BIL and his partner or did you choose not to invite anyone who openly sins? Were there any couples there who weren’t married, or who had a child out of wedlock? Anyone divorced and remarried?

I 100% agree with what the church teaches on homosexuality. I’m SAA myself and I choose to remain single and celibate in line with that teaching.

And yes, to answer your first question, you are definitely coming across as homophobic to me.

I applaud you for wanting to teach your son the rights and wrongs of homosexuality, but you don’t get to dictate how your family treat your BIL. If this is such a ‘no discussion’ topic (and I agree you get to make that call for your son) then it is your responsibility to ensure that he isn’t exposed to it. That may mean you have to minimise contact with your in-laws. Otherwise, you have to do what the rest of society does. Teach your son that sin exists, that some people support it but that doesn’t make it right. That is made more difficult by his autism and of course that is going to influence whether removing him from the family is the right decision or not.

Quickly, there were very few people at my wedding (25), and none of the people there were either divorced/remarried or living with a boyfriend/girlfriend. So, we were consistent.

 

[Kensho]

No, we do not keep BIL away from son. We only ask that he and MIL respect our wishes in how we want to raise our son. My goodness, is it that hard to talk about something other than the relationship my BIL is in?

I’m sorry – I was not referring to your BIL, but to your MIL. Nor did I mean to imply that you were being angry, inappropriate, or anything at all, but just hoping that if you had to end your relationship with your MIL that you would do it out of a loving motive and in a loving way rather than in a burst of anger and frustration. I told my in-laws off in a wave of rage and I regret it. (I’ve since been mending fences, and my situation is completely different from yours anyway.)

It’s hard to know what to do in your situation. You’re in the middle of a culture that is going to brand you as a bigot if you don’t shut up and keep your viewpoints to yourself, and it’s only going to get worse. Personally, I think you’re right, but because of the culture your son is going to have to grow up in, maybe it’s better if you tell him now that there are people who think that men can get married. You wouldn’t have to go into details. But I wouldn’t blame you if you cut your MIL off over this because she is bullying you and the natural protectiveness she feels toward her son is no excuse.

 

[crazzeto]

I’m sorry – I was not referring to your BIL, but to your MIL. Nor did I mean to imply that you were being angry, inappropriate, or anything at all, but just hoping that if you had to end your relationship with your MIL that you would do it out of a loving motive and in a loving way rather than in a burst of anger and frustration. I told my in-laws off in a wave of rage and I regret it. (I’ve since been mending fences, and my situation is completely different from yours anyway.)

It’s hard to know what to do in your situation. You’re in the middle of a culture that is going to brand you as a bigot if you don’t shut up and keep your viewpoints to yourself, and it’s only going to get worse. Personally, I think you’re right, but because of the culture your son is going to have to grow up in, maybe it’s better if you tell him now that there are people who think that men can get married. You wouldn’t have to go into details. But I wouldn’t blame you if you cut your MIL off over this because she is bullying you and the natural protectiveness she feels toward her son is no excuse.

There is a fine balance to be made, one should always strive to not end relationships at all if possible. Sometimes it’s unavoidable, and I think I completely agree with what you say here.

 

[90Domer]

Wow, I have to admit that I am shocked at the amount of people who felt husband and I were homophobic by not inviting an openly SSA couple (where BIL would make it known) to the celebration of my marriage. But I guess most people assume very large weddings where many behaviors can fly under the radar. Not in our case. We invited 25 carefully chosen people, and that was it. We kept the celebration of the sacrament a true celebration of the sacrament.

I also was somewhat surprised that asking my MIL to wear her faithful Catholic face to help us in teaching our special-needs son would be considered rude or outlandish. And many of the assumptions about how we went about it were so untrue. I guess it’s like the FDA–if I didn’t explicitly say I didn’t do something, then I didn’t do it. No benefit of the doubt in this crowd.

So, what did I learn? First, no matter how many priests give me/husband support, there will always be a large number of people even among self-identified Catholics on a faithful Catholic website who think we are/were being homophobic. If that is the response I get here, I feel I have no hope in the “real world.” Second, that there are a larger than expected number of people who feel that bearing witness to the faith (which entails setting a good example for our son) falls a distant second to hurt feelings. Third, that a larger than expected number of people felt we should compromise our faith & morals in favor of bring scandal to the Church.

And to clarify a couple of words that may have been misconstrued, when I talking about not being a sentimentalist, I use the Elizabeth Scalia definition of the word. We do not judge moral truths based on someone’s feelings. We judge moral truths based on right or wrong, as handed down to us through our faith. And when I talk about not bringing scandal to a situation, a use this definition: an attitude or action that causes others to do evil. It is entry 2284 in the CCC, with definitions that follow. Aso, a fellow alum summed it up well here:

catholicexchange.com/the-definition-of-scandal/

In our hearts, we know we did and are doing the right thing. There is no way that we will show through our actions that this SS relationship is good and holy. It simply isn’t.

Thanks for the lively discussion. Happy Spring.