Homophobic? Yes or no

[90Domer]

Ok, I lied (venial sin) but hubby read thread and helped my to interpret what people were trying to get through to me.

In the one case of telling MIL why we wanted to stay in motel versus her apt (to avoid confusion on the part of my son), I admit that I caved in to shut her up. The woman just could not accept or understand our choice (and I am sure saw it as a reflection of her). And because I could not convince her not to worry about it–and due to the fact that she started with personal attacks at this point–I got angry and told her the real reason. My patience could it tolerate her any longer. Certainly, I wish I had kept my cool, but she started attacking my financial decisions, which were really none of her business (she wasn’t paying for the place).

This was the gist of how most of the SSA conversations went down. We would gently try to guide her away from a tough topic, she would start an attack, and I would cave. I never harped or lectured her. But she has pushed buttons that caused me to lose my cool.

Frankly, we have not cut her out of our lives insomuch as she has cut herself out of our lives. We always expected a level of decency when conversing. My FIL, when he was alive, played the role of tempering her often sharp tongue and strong opinions (for instance, she on multiple occasions told me and hubby that he would make a terrible father…or the time she insisted on a family portrait without me because she feared our marriage was doomed). When FIL passed, the moderating role he played was gone but MIL kept up same behavior. Guess what? She has lost most of her friends because they can’t stomach her behavior.

Now, none of this justifies why I lost my cool. I was never out to torment her; but when she started with the personal attacks of either me, my husband (her son) or my kid, I knew I needed to stay far away. SIL hoped for a reunion, but it just won’t happen because she’s so rude. And sadly, she sees nothing wrong with this behavior. If she “feels” something needs to be said, she say it regardless of the other person’s feelings (they just need to handle it). Well, my attacks then fell along the same lines. Wrong, but reality. Yes, I am fallen and I have confessed my behavior, which I certainly am not proud of.

I wrote too much already…back to taxes!

 

[janlyn]

I see a lot of problems on both sides, not just hers. No one should be ranting, talking behind backs, or name-calling. That goes for everyone. No one should be telling anyone else how to treat or refer to their children. No one needs to start an argument with the other.

Basically you can choose to be the bigger person and either without spite or anger just decide it’s better if you stay apart, or without anger or spite decide to draw a line in the sand and refuse to argue.

But from the sounds of this both sides are fueling this.

I so agree with you…If you draw a line in the sand and refuse to argue…then there is no reason to continue because then you are just argueing with yourself. I’d soon get tired of talking if no one was listening.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

janlyn…I find this topic difficult, I know we all sin, but I disagree with cutting people out of my life based on their views. I have a granddaughter who has a same sex mate, I totally disagree with the life she has chosen, I do believe that it is a great sin to have sex with same sex people, BUT I would never dis my granddaughter and her mate, if they decide to get married persay, I will be there because I love my granddaughter and her mate. If someone is invited and wants to voice their opinion it is for the host or the people getting married to handle. I am not here to judge people but to love them. My granddaughter and her mate know that (we) her family do not agree with her life style. If the people want to walk away from them because of their beliefs, then good bye, but I will always be nice to them and welcome them into my home. My granddaughter feel the same way. This is just my opinion on how I would handle this. problem.:coolinoff:

Exactly. I would never cut someone out because they disagreed with my choices. But I would cut someone out if I was a lesbian and someone couldn’t be there for me as I started a family. Like I said, it wouldn’t be hostile, just a realization that my family of origin couldn’t find it in their hearts to wish me well and welcome my life partner, and since my new family takes precedence over my family of origin, the two are obviously incompatible and one needs to go. Kind of like how I would never cut FH’s family out for not liking that we are having a secular wedding, but we would if they refused to come, wish us well, give us their love, and smile as we start our life together as a family. Obviously if they can’t support the family that we are becoming then there is no reason to have them around. (Once again that isn’t an issue. Everyone is coming and everyone has talked to their priests.)

 

[Kensho]

You know, I had a Catholic wedding and a good friend of mine (a lesbian, by the way) just didn’t show up. This fit into a pattern of her not showing up to religious events, and so I cornered her and asked if she hadn’t come because the wedding was in a church. She admitted that was the reason. I was angry and frustrated with her, but only because she never told me how she felt. If she had said, “I can’t come to your wedding because it is religious and I’m not comfortable with that,” I would have been disappointed, but I would have understood. Just like I’d understand if, say, my father told me he couldn’t come to my baby’s baptism because he doesn’t believe in baptizing infants.

I got over being angry at my friend and didn’t cut her off. Why cut somebody off over her feelings and conscience? Well, it works both ways. If she ever “marries” her girlfriend, I wouldn’t attend, and I believe she wouldn’t hold it against me. She also knows that both she and her girlfriend are welcome in my home regardless.

Tolerance does not mean doing whatever people really, really want you to do. Growing up means accepting that people will disagree with you and that you will be disappointed, sometimes deeply disappointed, by the reactions that friends and family have to your choices. You can ask people to accept you as a person, but you can’t ask them to accept and affirm everything you choose to do.

 

[CatholicSheila]

Well, let me just tell you what was going to happen. He was going to announce that he and his partner dropped their last names and chose a new, mutual last name. I did not fully wrote about the extent of antics he had planned to protest where my wedding was, which was where I went to school. My husband agreed and it was his brother. This is a guy who really likes to draw attention to himself, and he doesn’t always make good choices. As it was, he missed his flight home because he passed out from drinking somewhere in the hotel. Thank goodness hubby and I checked out by then.

That does change the nature of what you did. Even if they were a straight couple, using your wedding (reception I assume) to announce anything about their family is inappropriate. As is any comment about your chosen venue. Your wedding, your choices. If your BIL had a problem, he could have chosen not to come. You weren’t so much refusing to invite his partner because of their homosexuality, but because they don’t know how to behave respectfully towards their hosts.

Would be more accurate to say that you didn’t invite the partner because of expected inappropriate behaviour, rather than because of their homosexual relationship? From what I’ve read in this thread, if a straight couple were going to behave the same way, you probably wouldn’t have invited them either. (Please correct me if I’m making wrong assumptions).

This isn’t homophobic and does make me rethink my first reaction, which is that you were/are homophobic. Please forgive me, but from reading the thread (all of it) I did genuinely get that vibe.

I wouldn’t have invited either of them, so that your did allow your BIL to come makes you a better person than me.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Should I just keep my mouth shut?

You are in a situation that is equivalent to a house where dust should be automatically shaken off your feet.

So yeah.

 

[90Domer]

That does change the nature of what you did. Even if they were a straight couple, using your wedding (reception I assume) to announce anything about their family is inappropriate. As is any comment about your chosen venue. Your wedding, your choices. If your BIL had a problem, he could have chosen not to come. You weren’t so much refusing to invite his partner because of their homosexuality, but because they don’t know how to behave respectfully towards their hosts.

Would be more accurate to say that you didn’t invite the partner because of expected inappropriate behaviour, rather than because of their homosexual relationship? From what I’ve read in this thread, if a straight couple were going to behave the same way, you probably wouldn’t have invited them either. (Please correct me if I’m making wrong assumptions).

This isn’t homophobic and does make me rethink my first reaction, which is that you were/are homophobic. Please forgive me, but from reading the thread (all of it) I did genuinely get that vibe.

I wouldn’t have invited either of them, so that your did allow your BIL to come makes you a better person than me.

Yes, I should have. My wrong. Honestly, this was my terrible assumption in thinking that this is how typical homosexual couple act–very militant and in-your-face. And this was my first dealing with SSA.

Hubby read thread and got that vibe too. I have a horrible communication habit in thinking that people can read my mind or complete my thoughts. It gets me in trouble at home with hubby as well.

Funny thing, this BIL attended our wedding but shaved his head in protest. And when we were opening gifts (there were only 25 people, so the guests wanted us to do it) he insisted that I read his card out loud to announce the gift was from him and his partner.

Actually, I adored his partner. I still do. I was heartbroken when partner left. Later found out my BIL was cheating on him…or whatever they call it.

Funny story. When BIL graduated college, we all went out for the ceremony. He made dinner reservations in his name (that’s what he told us). We show up first and find out that there is NOBODY with our last name. Turns out he made the reservation under the new name he and partner chose.

 

[90Domer]

That does change the nature of what you did. Even if they were a straight couple, using your wedding (reception I assume) to announce anything about their family is inappropriate. As is any comment about your chosen venue. Your wedding, your choices. If your BIL had a problem, he could have chosen not to come. You weren’t so much refusing to invite his partner because of their homosexuality, but because they don’t know how to behave respectfully towards their hosts.

Would be more accurate to say that you didn’t invite the partner because of expected inappropriate behaviour, rather than because of their homosexual relationship? From what I’ve read in this thread, if a straight couple were going to behave the same way, you probably wouldn’t have invited them either. (Please correct me if I’m making wrong assumptions).

This isn’t homophobic and does make me rethink my first reaction, which is that you were/are homophobic. Please forgive me, but from reading the thread (all of it) I did genuinely get that vibe.

I wouldn’t have invited either of them, so that your did allow your BIL to come makes you a better person than me.

One more thing, I was worried when I composed this post that I would be seen as more homophobic if I posted all the background information. Once I was called that, I posted more info in defense of myself.

 

[90Domer]

I so agree with you…If you draw a line in the sand and refuse to argue…then there is no reason to continue because then you are just argueing with yourself. I’d soon get tired of talking if no one was listening.

I truly don’t want to post any more about the toxic nature of my MIL. My hubby explained that I was never obligated to tell her my true reasons, even if she was being a PITA. So can you please not beat me up over this anymore?

If you want me to post all the **** she has said to me that leads me to have a short fuse with her (heck, hubby has an even shorter fuse), I can. However, I have previously posted threads on her toxic personality. I am, for the most part, a very easy-going and pleasant personality. I have to be raising my kiddo. But when MIL uses your kid (her grandkid) as a mode of attack against you, that is just plain cruel. I finally decided to stop being used by her. Heck, fights over her nearly broke up my marriage because hubby didn’t know how to handle her and support me properly (marriage counseling helped immensely). Naturally, when I posted, none of that history came out, so nobody knew how much of an emotional effort it was just to be in her presence.

We pray for her from afar, as we have profound pity for her because she is not a happy person. About every six months we will see if anything has changed. If it hasn’t we stay away. This is partly why my SIL wanted to try to get together before she passes–she’s 76 but in good health.

Thank you for reading and posting!

 

[90Domer]

Thank you everyone for reading and posting. I include all of you in my thoughts and prayers. Even if I don’t agree, I appreciate the effort and time you spent pondering and posting. All of you are wonderful people.

BEL, I wish I could crash your wedding to see your dress. I bet it is lovely!

 

[janlyn]

I’m so tired of this discussion, so I’m going to leave this site and go where I feel the love of God, and can grow in my faith. This site to me is very complicated to figure out how to post a question, and so forth. So I’m saying good bye and I pray everone to have peace within.

 

[90Domer]

I am sorry you feel that way, J. I hope you find a great site that is more befitting what you are looking for. God bless and Happy Easter.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Good afternoon friends. I guess this is another of my quarterly guilty, beat-yourself-up inspired posts that I occasionally start.

From the title, you can see that I am beating myself up because I fear that my position on SSM is causing me to be (falsely) labeled as a homophobe. I think some background would help.

My husband’s sibling is SSA. I knew this before I got married but after our engagement. My husband did not receive anywhere near the Catechism schooling that I did. As a result, he did not understand the concept of scandal, which is something I fully understood. Early in our marriage, I caved into some thoughts and actions that I knew were wrong (and led to scandal) in order to “keep the peace” with my husband and in-laws. I am a pleaser and rather passive, so I did not stand up for myself (and our faith) and, quite frankly, was too afraid to in some cases. Now, many years later, my husband and I fully understand the teachings of the Church and the sin of scandal.

This is where I get accused of being a homophobe by I now bear witness to the Church’s teaching on SSA where at one time I was wishy-washy. I am not obnoxious about it, as that is not my personality, but I stand my ground. So, does that make me a homophobe? I don’t think so, but enough people accuse me of that (and of not being compassionate) that I am really starting to wonder if stating the Catholic position equates me being a homophobe. Should I just keep my mouth shut?

Thank you for your consideration.

No, you’re not a homophobe. Homophobe is used interchanged with racist because probably have no counterargument.

It’s just a technique to silence you.

It’s pretty tough to argue against natural on principle, but it still feels good when it’s popular.

 

[SuperLuigi]

janlyn…I find this topic difficult, I know we all sin, but I disagree with cutting people out of my life based on their views. I have a granddaughter who has a same sex mate, I totally disagree with the life she has chosen, I do believe that it is a great sin to have sex with same sex people, BUT I would never dis my granddaughter and her mate, if they decide to get married persay, I will be there because I love my granddaughter and her mate. If someone is invited and wants to voice their opinion it is for the host or the people getting married to handle. I am not here to judge people but to love them. My granddaughter and her mate know that (we) her family do not agree with her life style. If the people want to walk away from them because of their beliefs, then good bye, but I will always be nice to them and welcome them into my home. My granddaughter feel the same way. This is just my opinion on how I would handle this. problem.:coolinoff:

I’d give some more thought about showing up just because she’s family. Apologist Michelle Arnold had a comprehensive post about attending non-Catholic weddings.

Otherwise, I agree with the spirit of your post.

 

[90Domer]

I’d give some more thought about showing up just because she’s family. Apologist Michelle Arnold had a comprehensive post about attending non-Catholic weddings.

Otherwise, I agree with the spirit of your post.

I would love to read Michelle Arnold’s post if you have a link to it.

 

[Kensho]

There’s this, OP:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277662

Notice the link to a Catholic Answers report on the subject below Ms. Arnold’s answer.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You know, I had a Catholic wedding and a good friend of mine (a lesbian, by the way) just didn’t show up. This fit into a pattern of her not showing up to religious events, and so I cornered her and asked if she hadn’t come because the wedding was in a church. She admitted that was the reason. I was angry and frustrated with her, but only because she never told me how she felt. If she had said, “I can’t come to your wedding because it is religious and I’m not comfortable with that,” I would have been disappointed, but I would have understood. Just like I’d understand if, say, my father told me he couldn’t come to my baby’s baptism because he doesn’t believe in baptizing infants.

I got over being angry at my friend and didn’t cut her off. Why cut somebody off over her feelings and conscience? Well, it works both ways. If she ever “marries” her girlfriend, I wouldn’t attend, and I believe she wouldn’t hold it against me. She also knows that both she and her girlfriend are welcome in my home regardless.

Tolerance does not mean doing whatever people really, really want you to do. Growing up means accepting that people will disagree with you and that you will be disappointed, sometimes deeply disappointed, by the reactions that friends and family have to your choices. You can ask people to accept you as a person, but you can’t ask them to accept and affirm everything you choose to do.

Big difference. I wouldn’t hold it against anyone if they didn’t come to my wedding because of the venue, location, whatever. I would however hold it against them if they didn’t come because they didn’t think that my marriage was “real”, or if they thought that it was downright wrong and immoral for us to marry. Huge difference there. Your friend didn’t go to your wedding because she was uncomfortable being in a church. Fine. I think it’s silly, but whatever. But she does think that you and your husband are married, that you should be allowed to marry, and that your marriage is real.

You on the other hand won’t see her marriage as real, don’t think that she should even be allowed to marry her partner, and think that it is immoral for her to even try.

Don’t be surprised if you end up losing her as a friend when she starts a family, because that family will take precedence over people who think that her family is a grotesque sham.

That’s how I would respond if someone didn’t come to my “invalid” wedding because it was “invalid”. I simply don’t have time for those kind of people and I wouldn’t want them in my life or around my children.

 

[janlyn]

I’d give some more thought about showing up just because she’s family. Apologist Michelle Arnold had a comprehensive post about attending non-Catholic weddings.

Otherwise, I agree with the spirit of your post.

I went to this link forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277662
I was not surprised when I read we are to politely decline the to come. I disagree…Jesus ate with the sinners!!

Jesus did not put restraints, he set an example…He was not commiting a sin when he ate with sinners. I would not be commiting a sin if I attend. I wouldn’t be participating with the actual ceremony. If this is wrong in the catholic church, I apologize if I offended anyone.

 

[Kensho]

Big difference. I wouldn’t hold it against anyone if they didn’t come to my wedding because of the venue, location, whatever. I would however hold it against them if they didn’t come because they didn’t think that my marriage was “real”, or if they thought that it was downright wrong and immoral for us to marry. Huge difference there. Your friend didn’t go to your wedding because she was uncomfortable being in a church. Fine. I think it’s silly, but whatever. But she does think that you and your husband are married, that you should be allowed to marry, and that your marriage is real.

You on the other hand won’t see her marriage as real, don’t think that she should even be allowed to marry her partner, and think that it is immoral for her to even try.

Don’t be surprised if you end up losing her as a friend when she starts a family, because that family will take precedence over people who think that her family is a grotesque sham.

That’s how I would respond if someone didn’t come to my “invalid” wedding because it was “invalid”. I simply don’t have time for those kind of people and I wouldn’t want them in my life or around my children.

I would never refuse to attend a wedding because I “dislike the venue”. That is shallow. That is not what my friend did. She dislikes Christianity and she has her reasons.

My view about marriage is the one taught by the Catholic Church and my friend knows it. I don’t demand that anyone share it, but I do insist that I be allowed to act according to my conscience. I expect no more nor less for anyone else, including my friend, whom I do not judge.

To cut off a good friend for acting in accordance with her conscience is sad, and, I think, immature. Of course if I were unkind about it, that would also be wrong.

This is just one of drawbacks of living in a pluralistic society, I guess. And in the end, people have the right to choose to be friends with whomever they wish, and to end those friendships even for sad and silly reasons. I’ve ended enough friendships for sad, silly, and proud reasons to regret it and to advise anyone else from making the same mistake.

Of course, this is all a moot point because I doubt very much that my friend will ever try to get married or have a family, but you are putting very ugly words in my mouth if you think I would regard her family as “a grotesque sham”. I don’t look at people that way, however I regard their decisions.

 

[Kensho]

I went to this link forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277662
I was not surprised when I read we are to politely decline the to come. I disagree…Jesus ate with the sinners!!

Jesus did not put restraints, he set an example…He was not commiting a sin when he ate with sinners. I would not be commiting a sin if I attend. I wouldn’t be participating with the actual ceremony. If this is wrong in the catholic church, I apologize if I offended anyone.

You are in a difficult situation and I doubt that anyone here would be offended or judge you for what you decided to do.