Homosexual Acts are Not Against the Natural Law

[Rau]

It doesn’t just present an “interesting drama”. You can also get an interesting drama by watching the serial killers and psychopaths in Criminal Minds but none of them are presented as “good guys” or “heros”. The NCIS story, on the other hand, presents a married gay man as an American hero and has Gibbs, a sort of all American good guy and a bit of a hero himself calling a gay man’s spouse his “husband”. The more this happens in popular shows like NCIS, the more normal and acceptable this will seem to most Americans. This kind of story just shows how much same-sex marriage and LGBT people have been accepted in much of American society.

So you suspect the production team is seeking to build a social-positioning through the program?

 

[Thorolfr]

So you suspect the production team is seeking to build a social-positioning through the program?

I think that the production team is presenting a story line with a married gay American hero because that is in line with where much of American society is actually at now. I doubt that the production team would have done this if they thought it would make most of their loyal viewers extremely angry. I’m sure that they want the audience to like the story’s “good guys”.

 

[Jaaanosik]

That’s right. Which posts argued this? Will you be answering Post #518?

To clarify - is sex after menopause “procreative” ?

I’ll point you to a post when you tell me…
Are the non-procreative sexual acts disordered?
Are the morally disordered acts considered sinful?

Procreative after menopause…
The Church’s view does not stand on menopause. It’s the same as before it.
It’s procreative when it’s done in the specific way as demanded.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

And how many times it did not come? I assume many more times.
NFP is one way how it’s done.
Why is putting on condom sinful, intrinsically evil?

Do young people practice NFP in order to avoid the consequences of their actions? Does the use of NFP pose a serious risk to human society?

You surely don’t endorse the use of condoms, 99% of the time they are used in this country. And yet, somehow, you think they are a good thing to introduce into a marriage. I respect your moral opinion on the matter, but I respectfully disagree.

 

[Rau]

I think that the production team is presenting a story line with a married gay American hero because that is in line with where much of American society is actually at now. I doubt that the production team would have done this if they thought it would make most of their loyal viewers extremely angry. I’m sure that they want the audience to like the story’s “good guys”.

Thor, is your point that Gay men can heroic things? Or that Americans can like heroes who happen to be gay? You seem surprised at one of these things, both of which are good things, no?

 

[Thorolfr]

Thor, is your point that Gay men can heroic things? Or that Americans can like heroes who happen to be gay? You seem surprised at one of these things, both of which are good things, no?

I was surprised that the “good guys” in the series (Leroy Jethro Gibbs and the others in the NCIS team) throughout the episode were calling the dead gay Marine’s spouse his “husband”. They introduced him to others as the Marine’s “husband” and the spouse himself called the dead hero who was up for the Medal of Honor his “husband”. Even I’m not used to hearing this on TV and was pleasantly surprised.

 

[Rau]

…Procreative after menopause…
The Church’s view does not stand on menopause. It’s the same as before it.
It’s procreative when it’s done in the specific way as demanded.

Good, glad that we cleared that up. So procreative means done in the appropriate manner, and natural impediments (eg. timing or age) have no bearing.

The church teaches that morally disordered acts are sinful. It lists many - adultery, lying, calumny, stealing, fornication, masturbation and so forth. Yes - I accept these things are sinful.

You need not respond to the question about the particular argument being put by other posters - I did find one poster who used the “contrary to natural law therefore sinful” argument.

I would like a response to the other part of #518.

 

[Rau]

I was surprised that the “good guys” in the series (Leroy Jethro Gibbs and the others in the NCIS team) throughout the episode were calling the dead gay Marine’s spouse his “husband”. They introduced him to others as the Marine’s “husband” and the spouse himself called the dead hero who was up for the Medal of Honor his “husband”. Even I’m not used to hearing this on TV and was pleasantly surprised.

And if there had been another good guy, say McGee, who had refrained from that language, would that change anything, or just add another dimension to the show?

 

[LisaA]

I was surprised that the “good guys” in the series (Leroy Jethro Gibbs and the others in the NCIS team) throughout the episode were calling the dead gay Marine’s spouse his “husband”. They introduced him to others as the Marine’s “husband” and the spouse himself called the dead hero who was up for the Medal of Honor his “husband”. Even I’m not used to hearing this on TV and was pleasantly surprised.

More theater of the absurd and an ill disguised attempt to make gay sex seem normal.

I love NCIS but like many such shows…Law and Order and others they wish to push an agenda. NCIS isn’t as bad as most of them which is one of the reasons I still watch it regularly. They’ve had a couple of gay characters who’ve made regular appearances. You know like they have to have the specimen black, the female in a leadership role…the usual Barney the Dinosaur feel good drivel. FWIW I really miss Ziva…now that’s a woman I can admire.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Good, glad that we cleared that up. So procreative means done in the appropriate manner, and natural impediments (eg. timing or age) have no bearing.

The church teaches that morally disordered acts are sinful. It lists many - adultery, lying, calumny, stealing, fornication, masturbation and so forth. Yes - I accept these things are sinful.

You need not respond to the question about the particular argument being put by other posters - I did find one poster who used the “contrary to natural law therefore sinful” argument.

I would like a response to the other part of #518.

Interesting, guess who wrote this: "But the morality of same sex acts won’t be influenced one way or the other. The participants in those acts, despite their desires, can reason,* they can see the dissonance, the disorder in their acts**."*
Do you know who called them sinful?
If you have a short memory it’s your post.
Can you tell me what was your #518 post about?

There are many good resources/books about the Natural law.
You can pick one or start here: newadvent.org/cathen/09076a.htm

 

[Rau]

Interesting, guess who wrote this: "But the morality of same sex acts won’t be influenced one way or the other. The participants in those acts, despite their desires, can reason,* they can see the dissonance, the disorder in their acts***."
Do you know who called them sinful?
If you have a short memory it’s your post.
Can you tell me what was your #518 post about?

There are many good resources/books about the Natural law.
You can pick one or start here: newadvent.org/cathen/09076a.htm

I was not speaking to morality or sinfulness! I was speaking to the evident dissonance, the incongruity, of the act. I have highlighted the observation that the bonding some have appealed to so extensively here is bound up in an act that wreaks of procreative potential, yet they engage in it with another man!! That is an objective dissonance quite apart from any assertions or conclusions about morality! It speaks to the nature of the man, and suggests something is amiss when the attraction is to another man.

I mentioned morality only to note that morality is not a function of how SSA arose. See post #52. I did not link morality to the incongruity of the act.

 

[Thorolfr]

More theater of the absurd and an ill disguised attempt to make gay sex seem normal.

I love NCIS but like many such shows…Law and Order and others they wish to push an agenda. NCIS isn’t as bad as most of them which is one of the reasons I still watch it regularly. They’ve had a couple of gay characters who’ve made regular appearances. You know like they have to have the specimen black, the female in a leadership role…the usual Barney the Dinosaur feel good drivel. FWIW I really miss Ziva…now that’s a woman I can admire.

I liked this last NCIS episode and hope we have more like it. After all, I need an antidote once in a while to being on CAF

 

[Jaaanosik]

Do young people practice NFP in order to avoid the consequences of their actions? Does the use of NFP pose a serious risk to human society?

You surely don’t endorse the use of condoms, 99% of the time they are used in this country. And yet, somehow, you think they are a good thing to introduce into a marriage. I respect your moral opinion on the matter, but I respectfully disagree.

I am not from this country so I don’t know how condoms are used 99% of the time.
Will you try to explain why is putting on condom sinful?

I can help you with a hint. Putting on condom is not sinful.

Having seen you to post this:* “The past usage of contraception (or the putting on of the condom) is the wrong thing.”*
I am not sure if you would see why I say it. The answer is simple. How it could be a sin if there would not be a marital act with it?
According to the Church a marital act with condom is sinful but not putting it on.
It appears your understanding is off and if you got it from the source you referenced then the source is off as well.

 

[LisaA]

I liked this last NCIS episode and hope we have more like it. After all, I need an antidote once in a while to being on CAF

As I said, I have been watching NCIS for nearly a decade and it features the usual politically correct suspects that TV land thinks we must dose out regularly. They’ve had a couple of regular gay characters as does Law and Order. Not sure which of the 27 versions of L&O but there is a gay psychiatrist…oh and he’s Asian so they get a two-fer on him!

Which begs the question why are you here if you consider it a poison pill?

 

[edwest2]

More theater of the absurd and an ill disguised attempt to make gay sex seem normal.

I love NCIS but like many such shows…Law and Order and others they wish to push an agenda. NCIS isn’t as bad as most of them which is one of the reasons I still watch it regularly. They’ve had a couple of gay characters who’ve made regular appearances. You know like they have to have the specimen black, the female in a leadership role…the usual Barney the Dinosaur feel good drivel. FWIW I really miss Ziva…now that’s a woman I can admire.

That’s how it works, Lisa. Too many people see this sort of thing, especially the young, and think it’s perfectly normal. But what some don’t understand is that the writers and producers of such shows had meetings and decided, “We’re going to introduce gay characters and later, gay spouses.” All scripts have to get a green light from the producers. And certain subject matter does not appear by accident, but by design.

Then some viewers just ‘go with the flow’ without realizing the agenda is being promoted where it never existed before.

Best,
Ed

 

[Jaaanosik]

I was not speaking to morality or sinfulness! I was speaking to the evident dissonance, the incongruity, of the act. I have highlighted the observation that the bonding some have appealed to so extensively here is bound up in an act that wreaks of procreative potential, yet they engage in it with another man!! That is an objective dissonance quite apart from any assertions or conclusions about morality! It speaks to the nature of the man, and suggests something is amiss when the attraction is to another man.

I mentioned morality only to note that morality is not a function of how SSA arose. See post #52. I did not link morality to the incongruity of the act.

Disorder in an act means it’s a disordered act.
A disordered act is a sin - catechism 1751: *Objective norms of morality express the rational order of good and evil, attested to by conscience. *
You call something disordered then you are saying it’s a sin. If you did not know that now you know.

 

[Thorolfr]

As I said, I have been watching NCIS for nearly a decade and it features the usual politically correct suspects that TV land thinks we must dose out regularly. They’ve had a couple of regular gay characters as does Law and Order. Not sure which of the 27 versions of L&O but there is a gay psychiatrist…oh and he’s Asian so they get a two-fer on him!

Which begs the question why are you here if you consider it a poison pill?

I still find many of the threads in CAF to be interesting and I certainly don’t disagree with everything that Catholics believe. But I do find some of the comments on LGBT issues to be a little unpleasant sometimes.

 

[Rau]

Disorder in an act means it’s a disordered act.
A disordered act is a sin - catechism 1751: *Objective norms of morality express the rational order of good and evil, attested to by conscience. *
You call something disordered then you are saying it’s a sin. If you did not know that now you know.

In a book about morality and sin, the CCC, that’s quite right - that’s how the word is being used. Morality has not been the context in which I’ve posted on this thread. In fact, neither is natural law! But given this is CAF, you’re quite right - the word should not be used unless a statement about morality is intended.

 

[LisaA]

I still find many of the threads in CAF to be interesting and I certainly don’t disagree with everything that Catholics believe. But I do find some of the comments on LGBT issues to be a little unpleasant sometimes.

Because we don’t agree with you or because something unpleasant was said? Something tells me Martin Luther wouldn’t be down with the gay thing either But most of the mainline Protestant churches have strayed so far from their roots that they are just The Church of What’s Happening Now instead of staying with the foundation. I used to be a Methodist and I assure you John Wesley and his mother Suzannah would be spinning in their graves if they saw what happened to the church John Wesley founded.

That’s why I became a Catholic, the fullness of truth, rational thought instead of relativism and a refusal to go along to get along when the issue is life or death.

 

[Rau]

I still find many of the threads in CAF to be interesting and I certainly don’t disagree with everything that Catholics believe. But I do find some of the comments on LGBT issues to be a little unpleasant sometimes.

If the unpleasantness arises from a gap between an argument with merit versus the comfortable position of the one hearing it, c’est la vie. There may be a lesson in it. If unpleasant for some other reason, ignore it, or in extreme cases, report it.