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DavidGonzalez
Guest
Dude, I described what you said in two different posts. And the first one didn’t mention anything about animals. And the point about gay animals was to draw your attention to the fact that you said the regular occurance of something in nature is one of the characteristics of the natural law (the other being self-fulfillment or happiness). Finally, I’ve already explained in my other posts that just because something exists in nature doesn’t mean that God wills it. Being born with a weak heart exists in nature but that doesn’t necessarily mean that God wills it. It could be one of the consequences of the fall.
You have yet to show that there is something instrinsically harmful about same sex attraction. And you can’t say that it’s intrinsically harmful because it’s sinful because that would be assuming your conclusion from the outset.
This time I’m really not posting again. Why waste my energy?
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
David, you’re quite intelligent, but you apparently aren’t willing to carry out an argument until its conclusion. I did NOT claim my view was conclusive, and I told you EXACTLY what sort of evidence could refute my view. See post #168:
Give me the evidence, or explain why there isn’t any. It’s that simple.
I’m more than open to being proven wrong. I’d find it much simpler to tell young men who were like myself, “Go find a boyfriend” instead of “Pick up your cross.” That’s much simpler advice, and it will be much easier for them to hear! But I don’t see the rational argument for such a position, given the evidence I have. Give me better evidence, and I’ll change my mind.
The challenge that I show something intrinsically harmful about same-sex activity, by the way, is a red herring. I can explain to you that such activity is correlated with harms, but I can’t show you conclusively that it causes such harms – no more than I can show you conclusively that experiencing rape in childhood causes personality disorders. But, given the evidence I currently have, I have reason to believe that homosexual activity inhibits flourishing.
Your reticence to respond to my arguments may be because you consider them inferior, and not worthy of your attention. But I suspect there is another reason for that reticence.
Peace,
Prodigal
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Thorolfr
Guest
I think that you just haven’t met enough gay men in long lasting, monogamous and caring relationships who truly believe that God made them the way they are, but they do exist. You admit that friendships between gay men may contribute to flourishing, but why would a celibate relationships lead to more flourishing than one that includes sex unless the sex adds something destructive to the relationship? For those gay men who have had it pounded into their heads from their churches and from society that being gay is bad and that sex between men is wrong, disordered or defective, that might indeed be the case. In fact, the notion that they are in some way defective (this also applies to those who are struggling to remain celibate) is bound to lead to a form of self hatred or self contempt. But as Anglican Archbishop Desmond Tutu says in his book God Has a Dream: A Vision of Hope for Our Time (p. 54), “Not to forgive leads to bitterness and hatred, which, just like self-hatred and self-contempt, gnaw away at the vitals of one’s being. Whether hatred is projected out or projected in, it is always corrosive to the human spirit.”
For those gay men who have forgiven themselves for being gay and who do not think that they are defective or disordered and have truly come to accept and love themselves and truly believe that God loves them just the way they are, sex with their partners or spouses can, in my opinion, be just as positive as between heterosexual spouses. As Desmond Tutu says (pp. 47-48), “God just wants us to love each other. Many, however, say that some kinds of love are better than others, condemning the love of gays and lesbians. But whether a man loves a woman or another man, or a woman loves a man or another woman, to God it is all love, and God smiles whenever we recognize our need for one another.”
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Rau
Guest
Do not conflate/confuse love and sex.
The subject is homosexual acts, not two person loving each other.
Now - is the sexual act intrinsic to the loving? No - it is not. Love and sex are related, but they are not interchangeable or synonomous and sex is not always found in a loving relationship (nor should it be).
The sexual act has a proper place, or context, by its nature. Examining that nature reveals that proper place, and it is not the relationship of two persons of the same sex.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
Homosexuality does not exist in animals.
Animals “hump”.
They do it because they are stupid horny animals. An animal will hump another animal of the same sex or a fence post or a human leg when ever they feel like it.
I can’t understand why any self-respecting homosexual would want to justify their choice of sexual conduct by comparing it to animal behavior.
One last thing, David.
Your post is titled:** Homosexual Acts are Not Against the Natural Law**
That statement is directly contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church.
It was pointed out to you in the start of this thread that the Church teaches that homosexual acts are contrary to the natural law… See post #13.
Do you reject the Church’s teaching? Do you expect the Church to change its mind? Do you expect Catholic members of the forum to agree with you?
Why are we still posting…?
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Thorolfr
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Your contempt for animals which you call “stupid” shows how little you know about them.
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edwest2
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With all due respect, Desmond Tutu does not speak for the Catholic Church. The ideal situation presented is monogamous partners or monogamous married gay persons. This is not always the case.
nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html?_r=0
The other thing to consider is that gay men have more sexual partners than other men.
cdc.gov/hiv/risk/gender/msm/facts/
And another issue that should be highlighted:
"A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90 percent of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31 percent reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse.[69]
"In a survey of 1,099 lesbians, the Journal of Social Service Research found that “slightly more than half of the [lesbians] reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner. The most frequently indicated forms of abuse were verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and combined physical-psychological abuse.”[70]
"In their book Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence,D. Island and P. Letellier report that “the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population.”[71]
I do hope the LGBT community is helping those people.
Ed
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Rau
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Me too. But not in every instance of love! This is something we all know to be true.
If he believes that, he would be wrong. Perhaps you could provide a quote where he says and explains that position? “Anything is good if love is in the mix” would seem to be the idea.
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Thorolfr
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If he believes that, he would be wrong. Perhaps you could provide a quote where he says and explains that position? “Anything is good if love is in the mix” would seem to be the idea.
washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/26/desmond-tutu-id-pick-hell-over-anti-gay-heaven/
One of the pastors in my Lutheran church is leading a book study that I am participating in on Desmond Tutu’s book, God Has a Dream, and I find him to be very inspiring.
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Rau
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Thor --is he talking about sex? If so, where is his reasoning? His explanation of the condemnation in scripture? His explanation for the absence of positive homosexual references in Scripture? His explanation of the role of homosexual sex in Gods plan? His exposition of the “error” in the theology of the Catholic Church? There is none.
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edwest2
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I respect Desmond Tutu’s work regarding apartheid. However, this is not the same issue. With all due respect, retired Archbishop Desmond Tutu is Anglican.
Ed
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Thorolfr
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It’s true that he’s Anglican, but some of us Lutherans are reading his books, too
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
OK. Show them to me.
If I were part of the gay movement, you better bet I would be shouting LOUD that the gay community has a public relations problem. Even though the media sometimes covers up for them (there was an egregious example of this lately, Terry Bean), the gay community portrays itself in the most unflattering of lights. I do know some gay couples, and I respect them, but I don’t see them distancing themselves from this nonsense – much to the contrary, the gay couple I’m most familiar with happily cowtows with Dan Savage, of all people. “Virtually normal”? Hardly.
Oh, and every gay couple I know is composed of atheists. Nothing against atheists, but not a great way to inspire my admiration and trust.
Bingo. But it’s not unique to gay couples. Straight couples who partake in sodomy/masturbation experience the same destruction. It’s not a problem with the couple; it’s a problem with the actions, which are obstructions to flourishing whoever does them. This is something I have direct experience of. These sorts of activities feel phenomenally good, but they breed jealousy, entitlement, humiliation, and the like.
Then why don’t I feel that self-hatred, bro?
This is bad theology, Thor! God loves ALL of us just the way we are. THAT is the antidote for self-hatred!!! But loving us the way we are doesn’t mean he wants us to embrace our disorders!
If that were true, then God would smile every time a man posts on Craigslist looking for a hook-up.
God smiles whenever we recognize His love in one another.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
So if we want to respect the Natural Law, is it also your view that same -sex marriage should be accepted by the Catholic Church?
How low to the ground are you willing to bend to accommodate the sodomites, as at your age you must know by now that sodomy is a profound evil condemned both in the Old and New Testaments?
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
To compare animal behavior to deviant human sexual behavior in order to justify such behavior and make it socially acceptable…is pretty stupid.Your contempt for animals which you call “stupid” shows how little you know about them.
But more importantly…do you agree with the Church’s teaching, that homosexual acts are contrary to the natural law?
PS. Ask a rancher or a dairy farmer if he thinks his animals are stupid.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Is this the Inquisition?
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edwest2
Guest
Hey, answers are provided in one thread, then a new one pops up, and another. All coming from different angles but with the same questions asked and answered, and answered and answered again.Is this the Inquisition?
Ed
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Thorolfr
Guest
My partner and I have been in a totally monogamous and caring relationship for almost 18 years and neither one of us is an atheist. We both go to church every Sunday, attend weekly Bible study and are active and involved members of our church.OK. Show them to me.
If I were part of the gay movement, you better bet I would be shouting LOUD that the gay community has a public relations problem. Even though the media sometimes covers up for them (there was an egregious example of this lately, Terry Bean), the gay community portrays itself in the most unflattering of lights. I do know some gay couples, and I respect them, but I don’t see them distancing themselves from this nonsense – much to the contrary, the gay couple I’m most familiar with happily cowtows with Dan Savage, of all people. “Virtually normal”? Hardly.
Oh, and every gay couple I know is composed of atheists. Nothing against atheists, but not a great way to inspire my admiration and trust.
That is a view grounded in Catholic teachings and people brought up in the Catholic faith are no doubt going to experience feelings of guilt if they engage, for example, in masturbation. But I, on the other hand, was never taught growing up that masturbation is wrong and have never had even the slightest feelings of guilt about masturbation. Anything done to excess can, of course, be destructive, but in moderation, masturbation, in my opinion, is perfectly normal and healthy. I suspect that most medical doctors would agree. People who feel guilt about it are probably responding to their upbringing
I agree that God loves us just the way we are and, in my opinion, for those of us that are gay, that includes the gay part. I believe that God created us that way. Isaiah 64:8: “Yet, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.” For those people with SSA that feel that that part is defective or disordered and that God does not love that part of them, I respect their right to believe what their conscience and their faith tradition dictates in that regard.
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