Homosexual Acts are Not Against the Natural Law

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So, to be as respectful, compassionate and sensitive as possible let’s just stick to terms like **“acts of grave depravity”, “intrinsically disordered”, “contrary to the natural law” **and remembering…“Under no circumstances can they be approved”.

I think that gets the point across…without calling anyone a sodomite.
Although I don’t personally agree with official Catholic teachings about homosexual acts, they at least do tend to speak about acts rather than using a pejorative term like “sodomite” which instead seems to condemn a person for who they are, not for what they do. But the Church now teaches that being a homosexual person (part of who a person is) is not a sin, but only what they might do (i.e. homosexual acts).
 
I’m thinking of more intelligent animals than cows and ducks. Take dolphins, for example, which like humans are a big brained species with more complex behaviors. According to Wikipedia:
Dolphins of several species engage in homosexual acts, though it is best studied in the bottlenose dolphins.[3] Sexual encounters between females take the shape of “beak-genital propulsion”, where one female inserts her beak in the genital opening of the other while swimming gently forward.[76] Between males, homosexual behaviour includes rubbing of genitals against each other, which sometimes leads to the males swimming belly to belly, inserting the penis in the others genital slit and sometimes anus.[77]
I did a little work with bottle nose dolphins and while not an expert, I suspect that professor Mann never did much swimming with them,

Firstly, when a female goes into estrus the males go nuts. If one can’t get to her…anything goes and humans better get out of the tank…a spurned male goes after other males or divers.

Secondly, we never allowed a woman into the tank during her period. Male dolphins don’t seem to know the difference and go nuts,

nydailynews.com/news/world/video-woman-claims-sex-dolphin-article-1.1823559

Bottom line is like I said before…dolphins are cute, playful and some are sort of intelligent but basically they are stupid, horny animals.
 
Although I don’t personally agree with official Catholic teachings about homosexual acts, they at least do tend to speak about acts rather than using a pejorative term like “sodomite” which instead seems to condemn a person for who they are, not for what they do. But the Church now teaches that being a homosexual person (part of who a person is) is not a sin, but only what they might do (i.e. homosexual acts).
That is very true. A person with a sexual orientation like pedophilia is not really guilty until they act on the orientation…right?
 
Although I don’t personally agree with official Catholic teachings about homosexual acts, they at least do tend to speak about acts rather than using a pejorative term like “sodomite” which instead seems to condemn a person for who they are, not for what they do. But the Church now teaches that being a homosexual person (part of who a person is) is not a sin, but only what they might do (i.e. homosexual acts).
It has always been hate the sin, love the sinner. At least that was what I have been taught.
 
One of the other unfortunate consequences of the “out and proud” meme is that close friendships between men are looked at with some suspicion as if some sort of Brokeback Mountain encounter is going on behind the scenes. Our history since the beginning of time…maybe beforehand is filled with stories of men whose friendship was an unbreakable bond, allowing them to each be better for the relationship. We think of the original Gilgamesh saga, David and Jonathan in the Hewbrew Bible and more recently CS Lewis and JRR Tolkein. If you want to read an amazing book about male friends, read “The Gift of Friendship.” In the hierarchy of loves, friendship is considered a higher form because there is no biological basis for the relationship. A sexual component is not necessary to have that Soul Friend closeness that can bring out the best in both parties. Sex in fact detracts, causes jealousies and puts the relationship on a more biological basis.

I do know that men are very sensitive to being viewed suspiciously if they have and maintain close friendships that are thankfully still accepted among women. There are few more lasting and deep relationships than two long time, close friends but by sexualizing male relationships we discourage the great Platonic friendships that added so much to the lives of those who have experienced this relationship.
The turn against such relationships in fact began as a result of the invention of heterosexuality and homosexuality.
Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christ.

Unlike protestants, I like to include the ENTIRE quote.

While the term “sodomites” may be a bit un-pastoral it is non-the-less accurate. Sodomy is unquestionably the most popular form of deviant sexual behavior enjoyed by the homosexual community. Although, unpleasant to accept for gays, the majority of society find it repulsive.

So, to be as respectful, compassionate and sensitive as possible let’s just stick to terms like **“acts of grave depravity”, “intrinsically disordered”, “contrary to the natural law” **and remembering…“Under no circumstances can they be approved”.

I think that gets the point across…without calling anyone a sodomite.
The old fashioned Catholic definition of sodomy refers to all inherently sterile sex whether between two men, two women or a man and a woman, this includes, but is not limited to: anal sex, fellatio, outercourse, mutual masturbation, masturbation, docking, sounding and copulation with a beast, deliberately thwarting the procreative potential of the sexual act such as condoms can also be considered sodomy from the medieval perspective.

Most sexually active people are sodomites these days.
I did a little work with bottle nose dolphins and while not an expert, I suspect that professor Mann never did much swimming with them,

Firstly, when a female goes into estrus the males go nuts. If one can’t get to her…anything goes and humans better get out of the tank…a spurned male goes after other males or divers.

Secondly, we never allowed a woman into the tank during her period. Male dolphins don’t seem to know the difference and go nuts,

nydailynews.com/news/world/video-woman-claims-sex-dolphin-article-1.1823559

Bottom line is like I said before…dolphins are cute, playful and some are sort of intelligent but basically they are stupid, horny animals.
Funny, they sound teenage males.
 
Although I don’t personally agree with official Catholic teachings about homosexual acts, they at least do tend to speak about acts rather than using a pejorative term like “sodomite” which instead seems to condemn a person for who they are, not for what they do. But the Church now teaches that being a homosexual person (part of who a person is) is not a sin, but only what they might do (i.e. homosexual acts).
To the best of my knowledge, the Church has always taught that there can be no sin without a choice to “act” (where an act may include thoughts,etc). Intentional or deliberate choice to “act” is essential. Consequently, no one ever sinned, or was said to sin, by merely having attractions to a wrong act.
 
Although I don’t personally agree with official Catholic teachings about homosexual acts, they at least do tend to speak about acts rather than using a pejorative term like “sodomite” which instead seems to condemn a person for who they are, not for what they do. But the Church now teaches that being a homosexual person (part of who a person is) is not a sin, but only what they might do (i.e. homosexual acts).
Actually, Thor, this is a misunderstanding. When the Bible says things about “schemers” or “thieves” or “drunkards”, it is condemning the action, not the person. I can understand why “sodomite” can be offensive, and I don’t support using the term. But the word does in fact refer to actions, not to a person’s nature.
 
I wouldn’t compare ourselves to other animals, since some of them eat their young. Lets stick with humans, for now.

I’m aware of the ministry that you are involved with, and I understand why being involved in such a ministry you would start to think of ways how people could feel more welcome.

For eleven years I have volunteered in high school youth ministry. Of course I want kids to feel welcome, to have them feel loved. Some of the kids that show up, they have lived lives in a certain fashion, society tells these kids that sex before marriage is fine, and artificial birth control is also fine - so they’ve been doing this. These kids become young adults, and they continue.

It’d be easy for me to say “there’s nothing wrong with what you are doing”, even more-so than the case with your ministry. I’m dealing with people who consent to sexual intercourse with the opposite sex - plain ol’ heterosexual sex - so I don’t need to be concerned with this whole natural law discussion. Biologically, these kids are using everything as it should be. Should I condone these acts? Should I condone their pre-marital sex and say “that’s fine, that’s moral - continue doing this” because I want to make them feel more loved and welcome? because it’s a young man and young woman having consensual sex. When a 17 year old says they’re taking the pill so they don’t get pregnant with their boyfriend, do I tell her “keep on taking the pill, that’s morally fine”?
Yes I agree…Jesus taught what God required of human beings. Animals are in a different category. :ehh: :doh2:
 
Have you forgotten that all the fruits are bound together? **The bonding of sexual relations occurs bound up with transfer of genetic material. **Why would that be?
The bonding aspect of sexual relations occurs regardless of whether genetic material is actually mingled into a fertilized egg. If bonding can occur independently of actual procreation, then exactly how are they inseparable?

We do not condemn women for “spilling” their eggs, so is lesbianism somehow more acceptable than men with men? Your last response to my question about lesbianism didn’t really address them other than to say “women are different”. If the logic you apply to gay men does not apply to gay women, I suspect the “universal truth” you are subscribing to is Niether universal nor true. Simply dismissing women from the discussion does not strengthen your argument, it significantly weakens it.
 
We do not condemn women for “spilling” their eggs, so is lesbianism somehow more acceptable than men with men? Your last response to my question about lesbianism didn’t really address them other than to say “women are different”. If the logic you apply to gay men does not apply to gay women, I suspect the “universal truth” you are subscribing to is Niether universal nor true. Simply dismissing women from the discussion does not strengthen your argument, it significantly weakens it.
The above argument ignores completely the fact that women “spilling their eggs” is not a deliberate act on their part. It happens. That is all that can be said and, therefore, carries no moral opprobrium. Certainly, that is not true with males. So “women are different” is true in this case from a moral perspective where intentionality is a key feature of morality.

Where males “spill their sperm” unintentionally – as, say, adolescent males experiencing euphemistically called “wet dreams” – there are, likewise, no moral implications.

If the cases were truly equal and women could intentionally bring about the production of an egg or eggs by some speciifc act on their part and then casually disposed of those eggs, then the question of the moral implications would become a serious one.

In the meantime, you haven’t made a case based on like actually being alike.
 
The bonding aspect of sexual relations occurs regardless of whether genetic material is actually mingled into a fertilized egg. If bonding can occur independently of actual procreation, then exactly how are they inseparable?
Well no, actually. You are using the word “bonding” ambiguously.

Sexual bonding is a completely different kind of bonding from other types of bonding – friendships, business partnerships, parent-child, sports teams, teacher-student, etc., etc. Each kind of bonding carries with it a set of specific characteristics that allow the ends or goals of THAT particular bonding to be accomplished.

What you are trying to do is use sexual bonding and the crucial aspects of that bonding –where sexual intimacy is an aspect of a comprehensive union of mind, body and soul in order to create, sustain, nurture and form new life – to argue that those same aspects are necessary to further other types of bonding such as friendship between two males or two females.

Life-long male-male or female-female bonding does not REQUIRE sexual bonding to attain the specific ends or aims of that kind of bonding. Sexual intimacy is completely extraneous and unnecessary (some would argue counterproductive) to furthering the goals of friendship or other human relationships. Sexual intimacy is, on the other hand, essential to furthering the goals of marriage where “marriage” is understood to be the comprehensive union of a man and woman with the end goal of embodying their love in real and new human beings. That end has never been, nor can ever be, the goal of friendships or other kinds of bonding. To think otherwise radically confuses what the ends of differing relationships are with respect to intention.

A teacher-student bond does not require sexual intimacy; neither do tennis partners, business partnerships, piano duet performers, pilots of airplanes, television co-anchors, etc., etc. Likewise, all friendships – even those that have lasted a lifetime – simply have nothing to gain from sexual intimacy. Conjugal partnerships, on the other hand, have a great deal to gain – the existence of a new lives which embody aspects from both partners at the deepest ground of reality, existence itself.

Your so-called “argument” completely ignores what is at issue by assuming the only thing at issue – to be gained or lost – is sexual license. In other words, what you seem to be advocating is that the freedom to express oneself sexually ought not ever be restricted from any moral standpoint.

That would mean, by implication, that the role of sexual intimacy in human relationships ought not ever depend on the end goals for those relationships, but rather merely on the willingness for those involved to “bring it in,” so to speak. Meaning that such a freedom ought not, therefore, ever be excluded from being a part of every human relationship that depends upon some kind of bonding. I am not clear that such an argument is sustainable or, even, rational.

Your argument depends entirely on whether free sexual expression is, indeed, the absolute right of individuals to practice without restriction. Yet, if that is the case, why would sexual intimacy be acceptable in human friendships, but not in, say, business partnerships or sports teams if sexual intimacy necessarily fosters “bonding” as a positive quality? Why advocate bring sexuality into friendships but NOT into business or sports if it is a positive thing that fosters relationship building (aka bonding)?

NOTE: I hesitate to bring this up because I am beginning to think our culture has utterly lost its moral rudder and the last two paragraphs will be viewed as a “why not?” kind of positive argument by those who have completely gone off the rails in terms of moral sensibility. Moral blindness is quite incapable of distinguishing the edge of the cliff from solid ground and will, quite to be expected, go over the edge in its compulsion to dismantle all restraints. It is only an act of faith on my part that readers of this post still are capable of perceiving moral truth that I make this post.
 
Actually, Thor, this is a misunderstanding. When the Bible says things about “schemers” or “thieves” or “drunkards”, it is condemning the action, not the person. I can understand why “sodomite” can be offensive, and I don’t support using the term. But the word does in fact refer to actions, not to a person’s nature.
I might agree with you if I didn’t know a little bit about the history of the terms “Sodomy” and “Sodomite”. Mark D. Jordan, formerly a professor at University of Notre Dame, Emory University, and Harvard University and now Distinguished Professor of Religion and Politics at Washington University has written quite a lot about the subject in his books The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology (University of Chicago Press, 1997) and *The Silence of Sodom: Homosexuality in Modern Catholicism *(University of Chicago Press, 2000). In the latter book, Jordan states (pp. 114-115):
[Peter Damian] begins his Gomorran Book with a famously candid list of sexual acts. According to Peter, clerical sodomites perform what we would call masturbation, mutual masturbation, copulation between the thighs, and copulation “in the rear.” The acts do not constitute sodomy: They express it. They manifest the spiritual disease of being a sodomite. “Sodomy” is not just a name for acts; it is a diagnosis of their origin.
 
Actually, Thor, this is a misunderstanding. When the Bible says things about “schemers” or “thieves” or “drunkards”, it is condemning the action, not the person. I can understand why “sodomite” can be offensive, and I don’t support using the term. But the word does in fact refer to actions, not to a person’s nature.
Even if the word by definition only refers to actions it certainly has the connotation of referring to gay people.
The bonding aspect of sexual relations occurs regardless of whether genetic material is actually mingled into a fertilized egg. If bonding can occur independently of actual procreation, then exactly how are they inseparable?

We do not condemn women for “spilling” their eggs, so is lesbianism somehow more acceptable than men with men? Your last response to my question about lesbianism didn’t really address them other than to say “women are different”. If the logic you apply to gay men does not apply to gay women, I suspect the “universal truth” you are subscribing to is Niether universal nor true. Simply dismissing women from the discussion does not strengthen your argument, it significantly weakens it.
The immorality isn’t about “spilling seed” it is about deliberately divorcing procreation from sex.
 
I’m thinking of more intelligent animals than cows and ducks. Take dolphins, for example, which like humans are a big brained species with more complex behaviors. According to Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals#Bottlenose_dolphins
As I said, animals engage in homosexual ACTS. But the test is that if there is a willing female in sight, will the male animal spurn the opportunity to mate normally and stay with his male sex partner? No. There are certain herd animals that live in ‘bachelor bands’ as there are never enough females to go around in such species. There is sexual activity among these bachelors but it’s situational…just as with humans we have evidence that males stuck together for long periods of time will engage in sexual activity…jails, ships for example. But in human homosexuals there is the element of CHOICE. Animals react instinctively. If something female holds still a male animal will mate with it. Human beings however have the element of choice, ethics, morals and laws.

You cannot extrapolate abnormal behavior in abnormal circumstances to claim that human homosexual acts are thereby normal. They are not.
 
Well no, actually. You are using the word “bonding” ambiguously.

Sexual bonding is a completely different kind of bonding from other types of bonding – friendships, business partnerships, parent-child, sports teams, teacher-student, etc., etc. Each kind of bonding carries with it a set of specific characteristics that allow the ends or goals of THAT particular bonding to be accomplished.

What you are trying to do is use sexual bonding and the crucial aspects of that bonding –where sexual intimacy is an aspect of a comprehensive union of mind, body and soul in order to create, sustain, nurture and form new life – to argue that those same aspects are necessary to further other types of bonding such as friendship between two males or two females.

Life-long male-male or female-female bonding does not REQUIRE sexual bonding to attain the specific ends or aims of that kind of bonding. Sexual intimacy is completely extraneous and unnecessary (some would argue counterproductive) to furthering the goals of friendship or other human relationships. Sexual intimacy is, on the other hand, essential to furthering the goals of marriage where “marriage” is understood to be the comprehensive union of a man and woman with the end goal of embodying their love in real and new human beings. That end has never been, nor can ever be, the goal of friendships or other kinds of bonding. To think otherwise radically confuses what the ends of differing relationships are with respect to intention.

A teacher-student bond does not require sexual intimacy; neither do tennis partners, business partnerships, piano duet performers, pilots of airplanes, television co-anchors, etc., etc. Likewise, all friendships – even those that have lasted a lifetime – simply have nothing to gain from sexual intimacy. Conjugal partnerships, on the other hand, have a great deal to gain – the existence of a new lives which embody aspects from both partners at the deepest ground of reality, existence itself.

Your so-called “argument” completely ignores what is at issue by assuming the only thing at issue – to be gained or lost – is sexual license. In other words, what you seem to be advocating is that the freedom to express oneself sexually ought not ever be restricted from any moral standpoint.

That would mean, by implication, that the role of sexual intimacy in human relationships ought not ever depend on the end goals for those relationships, but rather merely on the willingness for those involved to “bring it in,” so to speak. Meaning that such a freedom ought not, therefore, ever be excluded from being a part of every human relationship that depends upon some kind of bonding. I am not clear that such an argument is sustainable or, even, rational.

Your argument depends entirely on whether free sexual expression is, indeed, the absolute right of individuals to practice without restriction. Yet, if that is the case, why would sexual intimacy be acceptable in human friendships, but not in, say, business partnerships or sports teams if sexual intimacy necessarily fosters “bonding” as a positive quality? Why advocate bring sexuality into friendships but NOT into business or sports if it is a positive thing that fosters relationship building (aka bonding)?

NOTE: I hesitate to bring this up because I am beginning to think our culture has utterly lost its moral rudder and the last two paragraphs will be viewed as a “why not?” kind of positive argument by those who have completely gone off the rails in terms of moral sensibility. Moral blindness is quite incapable of distinguishing the edge of the cliff from solid ground and will, quite to be expected, go over the edge in its compulsion to dismantle all restraints. It is only an act of faith on my part that readers of this post still are capable of perceiving moral truth that I make this post.
👍👍 So well said and tying into a previous post regarding same sex friendships. The element of sexuality is destructive to such friendships as sexual jealousy ensues. In fact the prohibition against incest is not because our ancestors had any clue about genetics but because of the sexual jealousy that would destroy families. As you said, familial love, parents for children, children for parents, and to the close extended families is not made better by an element of sexuality…indeed one of the most horrific situations is a parent abusing a minor child.

The reality is that homosexuals are truly desperate to make their relationships equivalent although they simply cannot be made so. It’s like getting a piece of furniture from Ikea and trying to put the wrong pieces together hoping it will look like the picture on the box.
 
=DavidGonzalez;12698678]It seems to me that homosexual acts are not against the Natural Law.
The argument to the contrary usually goes as follows:
  1. God created the universe and everything in it not haphazardly but with purpose.
  2. We can discover God’s intention by analyzing his design of the universe and everything in it.
  3. The male reproductive system and the female female reproductive system are designed for each other.
  4. Therefore, God’s plan for human sexuality involves opposite sex relations.
  5. The male reproductive system is not designed for another the male reproductive system. The same is true for the female reproductive systems.
  6. Therefore, same sex relations are not part of God’s plan.
The problem is that this argument focuses on the external design of the body while ignoring the internal design. Although we don’t fully understand the causes of homosexuality at this time, it has become increasingly clear that some people are simply designed to have same-sex attraction. If so, then God was the designer.
Now why would God design some people for opposite-sex relationships in their exterior body but same-sex relationships in their interior life? I have no idea. But it doesn’t really matter. If God designed it that way, then who am I to judge?
So if we want to respect the Natural Law, then we have to accept same-sex relations because it seems to be the case that God himself designed some people that way on the inside even if not on the outside. To put it crudely, even if the exterior parts don’t fit, the interior ones sure do.
I disaree:)

Read the book of Genesis and you will discover that GOD proclaims and commands to “go forth and multiply” MANY, MANY times [more than 20]

A brief but accurate definition for God is:

GOD IS ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED

Because God not only in the Creator of “ALL Good things”; God is also the model par-excellence of ALL Good things.

Therefore It would be a Moral and Theological impossibility for God to be the CAUSE of both good and “evil.”

“Evil” here meaning ONLY [in this case] of a condition not congruent with God’s original plan for His humanity. [Sinfulness being another discussion]

God can’t have created man with the ability to procreate and also desired man to misuse this reproductive gift.

Same sex unions under your hypothesis would have to be FIRST for self gratification; not as God interned for procreation possibilities.👍

Under your way of thinking Contraceptive sex would also be agreeable to God. It’s NOT for the same reasons stated above.

God Bless you,

Patrick
 
The bonding aspect of sexual relations occurs regardless of whether genetic material is actually mingled into a fertilized egg. If bonding can occur independently of actual procreation, then exactly how are they inseparable?

We do not condemn women for “spilling” their eggs, so is lesbianism somehow more acceptable than men with men? Your last response to my question about lesbianism didn’t really address them other than to say “women are different”. If the logic you apply to gay men does not apply to gay women, I suspect the “universal truth” you are subscribing to is Niether universal nor true. Simply dismissing women from the discussion does not strengthen your argument, it significantly weakens it.
The ACT is intrinsic to the bonding, and intrinsic to the act is the delivery of sperm. Can you not see a picture forming here? Why does THIS act both bond one person to another and transfer genetic material? The act intrinsically incorporates procreative potential.

The release of an egg is not a chosen act by a woman.

I am not making any universal argument. I am asking you to look at the male sexual act and see its full nature!
 
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