Homosexual Acts are Not Against the Natural Law

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Please, read my post again.
See Peter’s post. Also, I think the question “What is the telos of hearing?” might be confused. Hearing is not an action; it is a capacity for action. Only actions/activities have a telos.

The telos of listening to a conversation is to acquire information. The telos of listening to music is (perhaps) to experience emotions more fully.

At this point, I’m not sure what your larger point is.
 
See Peter’s post. Also, I think the question “What is the telos of hearing?” might be confused. Hearing is not an action; it is a capacity for action. Only actions/activities have a telos.

The telos of listening to a conversation is to acquire information. The telos of listening to music is (perhaps) to experience emotions more fully.

At this point, I’m not sure what your larger point is.
Please, see my response to that post.
Hearing is an attribute that belongs to human being and when it’s used it supports existence. Listening to music is an act.
Capability to conceive is an attribute that belongs to women and when it’s used it supports procreation. Marital act is an act.
The existence and procreation are fundamental to the human nature and the Natural law.

The larger point is that if we apply the same logic that is being used for the marital act then listening to music is an intrinsically evil act because it obstructs the primary telos of hearing.
 
This is from one professor about the Natural law: "While St. Thomas does define the natural law as “the participation of the rational creature in the eternal law” this does not mean that it is simply reason or logic. Rather, it is reason’s ability to understand our human nature and its inclination as designed by the Creator. ** These interdependent inclinations are (from most fundamental to most excellent) are: existence/life, the procreation and education of offspring, living in society, and the pursuit of truth.**"

The existence/life is the most fundamental inclination, goodness of a human being/human nature.
Telos of hearing is to support that. This is how the hearing relates to the Natural law - it supports the most fundamental inclination/goodness.
Except, this does not describe “survival.” Not even close, because THIS “fundamental inclination” towards “Life,” and to the fullest expression of it, essentially means we may have to give up survival – as Jesus did – in pursuit of eternal life. Eternal life, itself, makes survival on Earth somewhat accidental to Eternal Life as the end or telos. The martyrs would be perfect examples of this. Survival (in the temporal sense) was not their end goal, otherwise they would have recanted and gone their merry way in the quest to merely survive.
 
Except, this does not describe “survival.” Not even close, because THIS “fundamental inclination” towards “Life,” and to the fullest expression of it, essentially means we may have to give up survival – as Jesus did – in pursuit of eternal life. Eternal life, itself, makes survival on Earth somewhat accidental to Eternal Life as the end or telos. The martyrs would be perfect examples of this. Survival (in the temporal sense) was not their end goal, otherwise they would have recanted and gone their merry way in the quest to merely survive.
Except you are talking about the Revealed law and not the Natural law.
 
Except you are talking about the Revealed law and not the Natural law.
I am not sure that mere survival is the telos under natural law. What the nature of that which is surviving would be a crucial consideration. There might be conditions under which survival would not be defensible by natural moral law. Survival of that which merits survival under natural law would be a qualifier.
 
I understand what you are saying but it appears to me it’s not so simple as you say it is.

I’ll give you an example. Hearing, we got it for survival (listening to dangers around us) and for communication.
If a person is driving in a car listening to loud music for pleasure that person can miss a horn of another car from the blind spot and an accident might happen.
Putting on headphones at home listening to music for pleasure alone … that person can miss burglar coming to his house.
The point is that the fundamental attribute of hearing is not being used for what it’s supposed to be used. The chance of using hearing for the survival is sometimes limited to zero percent when listening for pleasure.
People listen to music for pleasure and the Church does not say it’s a sin.
Do you see where this is going?
Are you going to stop listening to music to be consistent with logic that you apply to marital acts?
Primitive Man roaming the plains with lions would do well to not interfere with his capacities to hear and smell the approaching beasts. Me in my castle, reclined in my home theatre, or listening to the crescendo of the orchestra in the concert hall, is attending to other essentials of life.😉
 
Natural does not conflict with Divine Revelation, they both have the same Author.
Well, self preservation might lead people to safety in a dangerous situation - Natural law.
Altruistic self sacrifice because of love might override that - Revealed law.
 
Well, self preservation might lead people to safety in a dangerous situation - Natural law.
Altruistic self sacrifice because of love might override that - Revealed law.
Survival, per se, cannot be the telos because it is entirely proper to ask, “Survival for what end?”

Why would survival for 85 years be a plausible moral end unless there was a good reason (end or telos) for doing so, no?
 
Then your actions [sex with spouse] are inconsistent with your intentions [sex without resulting pregnancy]
Such inconsistency would arise if the sex was had when the wife was known to be fertile, and arguably if the wife’s fertility were unknown. In the latter case, it’s a bit like gambling. [Arguably, if the aim is to make money, games of pure chance are unwise, as the odds are stacked against the gambler. Though with sex, randomly timing sex has the odds in favour of no pregnancy].
 
The larger point is that if we apply the same logic that is being used for the marital act then listening to music is an intrinsically evil act because it obstructs the primary telos of hearing.
What logic are you referring to here? Could you “spell it out” to avoid misunderstanding?
 
I can not help myself but it appears to me twisted and schizophrenic.
Agreed.

I never said that I intend not to make my wife pregnant. I said that I lack the intent to make her pregnant, and that I want (NOT “intend”) her not to get pregnant. I’m not sure what you’re objecting to.
If you are engaging in an activity,
  1. for which you know that it would naturally have particular consequences,
    and
  2. you do not want those consequences,
    and
  3. you take steps to prevent those consequences,
    and
  4. you know that it is not within your power to fully prevent those consequences,
then you are being inconsistent (schizophrenic).

Whether it is about engaging in sex and using contraceptives (using contraceptives is evidence that you wish to prevent conception); or whether it is about eating junk food, and then going on a bowel cleansing treatment because you don’t want to get sick from the junk food.

How is it twisted to do something without wanting a certain possible consequence to arise from it? :

I tell my children to empty the dishwasher every day, even though I don’t want them to get upset with me. Are you saying that, since I know they might get upset with me, my action is schizophrenic?
Some people getting upset over emptying the dishwasher is not in any way intrinsic or natural to the act of emptying the dishwasher, but the possibility of conception is intrinsic to the sexual act between a man and a woman. The fact that people use contraceptives is evidence that they are aware of this.

For comparison, consider what the Hare Krishnas belive about sex: they believe that sex should be engaged in only when the prospective parents want to produce children that they intend and are reasonably able to raise in proper religion, and even then sex is to be engaged in only at the time when the woman is fertile.

Survival, per se, cannot be the telos because it is entirely proper to ask, “Survival for what end?”

Why would survival for 85 years be a plausible moral end unless there was a good reason (end or telos) for doing so, no?
Besides, in the material sense, eventually, nobody survives anyway, so survial can never be the goal. The goal can be to temporarily get into a position of some power over others.

Such inconsistency would arise if the sex was had when the wife was known to be fertile, and arguably if the wife’s fertility were unknown. In the latter case, it’s a bit like gambling. [Arguably, if the aim is to make money, games of pure chance are unwise, as the odds are stacked against the gambler. Though with sex, randomly timing sex has the odds in favour of no pregnancy].
Since fertility cannot be fully predicted or known before it happens, any sexual act is gambling as far as conception goes.

Again, try to place yourself in the position of the woman, and consider the mental gymnastics, denial, gambling and anguish she must go trough if she is to engage in sex on the terms you have been describing.
 
If you are engaging in an activity,
  1. for which you know that it would naturally have particular consequences,
    and
  2. you do not want those consequences,
    and
  3. you take steps to prevent those consequences,
    and
  4. you know that it is not within your power to fully prevent those consequences,
then you are being inconsistent (schizophrenic).
Becoming pregnant is a possible outcome of sex - that is the relevant form of expression for your point 1. That consequence is given (notionally) a probability, probably well under 50%, and the “risk” is accepted - after balancing against the probability of rewards. That is a calculated risk, not a schizophrenic act. Such scenarios arise regularly in life.
Since fertility cannot be fully predicted or known before it happens, any sexual act is gambling as far as conception goes.
Sure. If they wish to “enjoy” sex but to avoid pregnancy, then it is a calculated risk, as I indicated above.
Again, try to place yourself in the position of the woman, and consider the mental gymnastics, denial, gambling and anguish she must go trough if she is to engage in sex on the terms you have been describing.
I don’t know what you believe I am descriving, nor do I understand what you are advocating!
 
Becoming pregnant is a possible outcome of sex - that is the relevant form of expression for your point 1. That consequence is given (notionally) a probability, probably well under 50%, and the “risk” is accepted - after balancing against the probability of rewards. That is a calculated risk, not a schizophrenic act. Such scenarios arise regularly in life.
… and such an explanation is characteristically atheistic.

Many men prefer women who are willing to gamble, even with their health, life, and the life of others.
I don’t know what you believe I am descriving, nor do I understand what you are advocating!
Well, if the prospects of having an unwanted child or an abortion seem easy for you to live with, then there isn’t much I can say.
 
… and such an explanation is characteristically atheistic.
no it is not. Such a thought process (in the context of a married couple) is natural, reasonable and moral.
Many men prefer women who are willing to gamble, even with their health, life, and the life of others.
Well, if the prospects of having an unwanted child or an abortion seem easy for you to live with, then there isn’t much I can say.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
 
If you are engaging in an activity,
  1. for which you know that it would naturally have particular consequences,
    and
  2. you do not want those consequences,
    and
  3. you take steps to prevent those consequences,
    and
  4. you know that it is not within your power to fully prevent those consequences,
then you are being inconsistent (schizophrenic).
But I don’t take steps to avoid the consequences. The consequences of making love on that night if we haven’t been charting are EXACTLY the same as they would be on that night if we have been charting. No attempt is made to change the consequences of that action.

Moreover, I’m open to the consequences, I’m open to having another baby – as evidenced by the fact that two of my five children were conceived on “infertile” days, according to the chart.
Whether it is about engaging in sex and using contraceptives (using contraceptives is evidence that you wish to prevent conception); or whether it is about eating junk food, and then going on a bowel cleansing treatment because you don’t want to get sick from the junk food.
Huh? Who’s using contraceptives?
 
What logic are you referring to here? Could you “spell it out” to avoid misunderstanding?
It’s a sin to separate natural law’s procreative aspect/attribute from the marital act.
Therefore it should be a sin to separate natural law’s hearing for survival attribute from the listening act.
 
I am not sure that mere survival is the telos under natural law. What the nature of that which is surviving would be a crucial consideration. There might be conditions under which survival would not be defensible by natural moral law. Survival of that which merits survival under natural law would be a qualifier.
It’s a privilege to live given to us by God.
People protect this privilege. That’s the most fundamental inclination of the Natural law.

Our life is our ‘talent’, we are supposed to use it, and bring some ‘return on investment’ with us when we come back to God after our life here on Earth.
I hope you know the parable from Mathew 25.

It appears strange that you even argue this point. Does it mean that a life has no value to you?
Think about the consequences of what you are saying!
 
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