Homosexual and women priests

[beeliner]

1. None of the Apostles were homosexual that is the beginning of the priesthood.
2. That today there are homosexuals in the priesthood is a sad truth.
3. When was the first ordained, is an unanswerable question but certainly not from the first as you claim without any supporting evidence.

1. You don’t know that. One in particular seems suspect. Celibate no doubt, but suspect nonetheless. Check out the Last Supper painting.
2. Why is that sad? Without such priests how would the need be met? We are talking perhaps 40% of priests, maybe more, it’s hard to get an accurate figure. In case you haven’t noticed, a celibate lifestyle is not very attractive to modern heterosexual young Catholic men. To young men who know that they are same-sex oriented, and devout Catholics determined to follow their Church’s teaching that they are called to a life of celibacy, the priesthood is a much more attractive prospect.

It would also be interesting to know the orientation of priests who leave the priesthood for one reason or another. I would guess that more heterosexual priests leave, mainly in order to marry but for other reasons as well, than homosexuals. But it’s just a guess.

1. Do you seriously imagine that the subject was broached back then? Of course, since priests of that era could be married, the logistics were different, the percentage was very probably closer to the percentage of homosexuals in the general population, which was probably nearly the same as today.

 

[Conor7]

1. You don’t know that. One in particular seems suspect. Celibate no doubt, but suspect nonetheless. Check out the Last Supper painting.

Brilliant! I may or may not have a same-sex crush on beeliner. LOL

 

[kylemccloughan]

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not ordain women, nor do we ordain openly practicing homosexual men.

Jon

In the ACNA, there are NO practicing homosexuals who become clergy. PERIOD. As for women priests, there are some including our wonderful priest’s wife who is also an ordained priest, but I do believe that there will be a moratorium on ordaining women to the priesthood at some point. There is considerable pressure being put on The Most Reverened Archbishop Duncan in this regard.

 

[beeliner]

In the ACNA, there are NO practicing homosexuals who become clergy. PERIOD.

OK, but…

1. The discussion here is mainly about the ordination of CELIBATE homosexuals.
2. Lest there be any misunderstanding, you should make it clear that the ACNA is schismatic, and not affiliated with the Anglican Communion, but only with a few churches in far-flung African countries.

 

[kylemccloughan]

OK, but…

1. The discussion here is mainly about the ordination of CELIBATE homosexuals.
2. Lest there be any misunderstanding, you should make it clear that the ACNA is schismatic, and not affiliated with the Anglican Communion, but only with a few churches in far-flung African countries.

Yeah, so? What does that have to do with the topic?

 

[beeliner]

Yeah, so? What does that have to do with the topic?

I thought that was what I was asking YOU, though admitedly I didn’t state it in the form of a question.

 

[kylemccloughan]

I thought that was what I was asking YOU, though admitedly I didn’t state it in the form of a question.

Were we not asked what our thoughts were on homosexuals and women priests? I simply answered it along the lines of how my church teaches and practices which would be at the very least close to my thoughts on the topic. Sheesh!

 

[Rocky]

1. You don’t know that. One in particular seems suspect. Celibate no doubt, but suspect nonetheless. Check out the Last Supper painting.

So which Last Supper painting is this? One painted in the 15th Century? And this is your proof?

 

[adrift]

1. You don’t know that. One in particular seems suspect. Celibate no doubt, but suspect nonetheless. Check out the Last Supper painting.

Yeah right Leonardo da Vinci painted in the 15th century. Unless you think he was there at the Last Supper it has no bearing on fact which you are lacking. BTW your comment is uncharitable. To speculate on how one looks is at best bigoted and might be classified as hateful. You do not know that there were any Apostles that were homosexual. If you have evidence, lets see it. What we do know about them is that they were married. The early Christians including the Apostles would have looked on homosexuality as an abomination.

1. Why is that sad? Without such priests how would the need be met? We are talking perhaps 40% of priests, maybe more, it’s hard to get an accurate figure. In case you haven’t noticed, a celibate lifestyle is not very attractive to modern heterosexual young Catholic men. To young men who know that they are same-sex oriented, and devout Catholics determined to follow their Church’s teaching that they are called to a life of celibacy, the priesthood is a much more attractive prospect.

Verifiable facts not speculation. It is sad to be attracted to sin. The Catechism says

This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.

It is strange that you don’t think that this is a sad condition.

1. Do you seriously imagine that the subject was broached back then? Of course, since priests of that era could be married, the logistics were different, the percentage was very probably closer to the percentage of homosexuals in the general population, which was probably nearly the same as today.

This is an evasion that shows you have no evidence to backup your unwise claim. Yes the subject was broached back then. Do you have proof it wasn’t?

The writings of the New Testament do not deal explicitly with the subject of homosexuality. There are references to it, but these are quite rare, all being limited to the Pauline Epistles. The most logical explanation for this fact lies not in a permissive attitude towards the matter, but in the fact that homosexuality had already been condemned by Jewish tradition, to which all the early Christian writers are basically indebted, and that similarly in the Greek world it was censured by the predominant Stoic philosophy as contrary to nature.

 

[Roy5]

Eventually the Church will have women Deaconnesses.

It already has many homosexual priests who have taken a vow of celibacy.

 

[adrift]

Eventually the Church will have women Deaconnesses.

It already has many homosexual priests who have taken a vow of celibacy.

If you mean ordained to be a Deacon, that has already been settled as impossible.

 

[PiousTemplar]

Eventually the Church will have women Deaconnesses.

It already has many homosexual priests who have taken a vow of celibacy.

No it won’t. In the words of another forumer, ‘It’s about as impossible as a Bishop attempting to consecrate Milk and Toast.’

 

[estesbob]

Yeah right Leonardo da Vinci painted in the 15th century. Unless you think he was there at the Last Supper it has no bearing on fact which you are lacking. BTW your comment is uncharitable. ?

Actually, I believe that was his wife, Mary Magdalene, who had her head on his shoulder…

 

[Fink]

Thank you, OM, and very well stated.

The posts to this thread by poster Fink are among the most vicious and hate-filled that I have ever encountered on these forums.

Could you please explain how my posts have been vicious and hate-filled?
On second thoughts, maybe you better not…

Like it or not: a homosexual orientation is disordered. An SSA man DOES lack part of what it takes to be a full man psychologically. If you want to deny that, and follow the political correctness inflicted on Western society by “Gay Rights” agitators, and legislated into law by morally bankrupt politicians…thats your right. i, for one, dont want to be an ostrich, and live a lie.
Truth is Truth.
Lies are lies: no matter how hard theyre rammed down our throats. And i did not say that homosexuality is a sin: its not, of course.
Its the acting out thats sinful.
i also said that heteros cant do whatever they like. If you regard me as being "homophobic", thats your business!

Let`s get it straight: The Church is now trying to prevent even CELIBATE SSA men from entering the priesthood. Even celibate SSA men have psychological problems which would impede a priestly ministry.

To go back to something mentioned earlier (#2}:
Among other things, the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ.
Through the Mass and the Sacraments (primarily), Christ the Bridegroom gives Life to His Bride, the Church. He does this through the priest.
So, there`s MARITAL imagery.
The part of the Bridegroom can be taken ONLY by a man. As one speaker said: a "marital embrace between a “priestess” and the Bride would be “liturgical lesbianism”.

A healthily heterosexual man who sacrifices marriage and family life for the priesthood uses his “sexual energy” to provide for, and protect, the Bride and her children (us).

If you want to reject all of that, go to Ephesians 5, and start at verse 25. Read to the end of verse 32 ( or 33).
“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her…For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one. This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the Church.” RSV-Catholic Edition.
This stuff`s deep. Ultimately, it can be traced back to the inner Life of God.
Its not for us to dare interfere with it, and the early Church knew that.

PS
Chesangle: SSA means Same Sex Attraction (or Attracted).

PPS
Cardinal Pell is NOT hard line: hes just a faithful successor of the Apostles, saying and doing what he should be saying and doing. In other words: hes orthodox.

PPPS
The effeminate face in that painting is am insult!

 

[adrift]

Actually, I believe that was his wife, Mary Magdalene, who had her head on his shoulder…

Could you please explain how my posts have been vicious and hate-filled?.

They were not it was just an Ad Hominem :knight2:

 

[Cheshangle]

Could you please explain how my posts have been vicious and hate-filled?
On second thoughts, maybe you better not…

Like it or not: a homosexual orientation is disordered. An SSA man DOES lack part of what it takes to be a full man psychologically. If you want to deny that, and follow the political correctness inflicted on Western society by “Gay Rights” agitators, and legislated into law by morally bankrupt politicians…thats your right. i, for one, dont want to be an ostrich, and live a lie.
Truth is Truth.
Lies are lies: no matter how hard theyre rammed down our throats. And i did not say that homosexuality is a sin: its not, of course.
Its the acting out thats sinful.
i also said that heteros cant do whatever they like. If you regard me as being "homophobic", thats your business!

Let`s get it straight: The Church is now trying to prevent even CELIBATE SSA men from entering the priesthood. Even celibate SSA men have psychological problems which would impede a priestly ministry.

To go back to something mentioned earlier (#2}:
Among other things, the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ.
Through the Mass and the Sacraments (primarily), Christ the Bridegroom gives Life to His Bride, the Church. He does this through the priest.
So, there`s MARITAL imagery.
The part of the Bridegroom can be taken ONLY by a man. As one speaker said: a "marital embrace between a “priestess” and the Bride would be “liturgical lesbianism”.

A healthily heterosexual man who sacrifices marriage and family life for the priesthood uses his “sexual energy” to provide for, and protect, the Bride and her children (us).

If you want to reject all of that, go to Ephesians 5, and start at verse 25. Read to the end of verse 32 ( or 33).
“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her…For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one. This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the Church.” RSV-Catholic Edition.
This stuff`s deep. Ultimately, it can be traced back to the inner Life of God.
Its not for us to dare interfere with it, and the early Church knew that.

PS
Chesangle: SSA means Same Sex Attraction (or Attracted).

PPS
Cardinal Pell is NOT hard line: hes just a faithful successor of the Apostles, saying and doing what he should be saying and doing. In other words: hes orthodox.

PPPS
The effeminate face in that painting is am insult!

I’m not sure if it was you who disputed the term “hard line”, but are you saying that all Cardinals think alike? Are they all “identikit” “automatons” or do their views vary?

 

[Fink]

I’m not sure if it was you who disputed the term “hard line”,

No; thats the first time ive mentioned it. i was just disputing the applying of “hard line” to Cardinal Pell. If he wants to be a faithful Cardinal, he HAS to believe in, and apply, ALL of the Churchs teachings re Faith and Morals. Theyre infallible. They`re non-negotiable.
So-called “liberalism” can lead a person astray…>>> dissent/heresy >>> apostasy.

but are you saying that all Cardinals think alike? Are they all “identikit” “automatons” or do their views vary?

Everyone has a God-given intellect; and is expected, by God, to use it.

All Cardinals should think alike when it comes to the Churchs infallible teachings. Tragically, thats not always the case; and, unless they repent, the dissenters will have to answer to God. How each individual Cardinal passes on and applies those teachings is up to him, as long as he does it in an orthodox way. Same thing with disclipines and practices, and just general running of an Archdiocese.

Beliefs on issues like, say, the death penalty, or whether a nation should or should not be a republic, are, of course, the “rightful property” of the individual Cardinal, and everyone else.

PS
The Jensens are very “Low Church”, so im not so convinced that they and Cardinal Pell would be too matey. Thats only pure speculation on my part, though, and im happy to be corrected on that. (They messed up the interior of Saint Andrews Cathedral! )

PPS
Regarding the President of Ireland: her opinions re “priestesses” are worthless. All it shows is that she`s not a good Catholic; and it points to the general backsliding of Irish Catholics.

---

PPS***
i can`t shut up! Serves you right for asking that question!

Plus: i`m NOT some ultimate authority.

 

[Cheshangle]

No; thats the first time ive mentioned it. i was just disputing the applying of “hard line” to Cardinal Pell. If he wants to be a faithful Cardinal, he HAS to believe in, and apply, ALL of the Churchs teachings re Faith and Morals. Theyre infallible. They`re non-negotiable.
So-called “liberalism” can lead a person astray…

Everyone has a God-given intellect; and is expected, by God, to use it.

All Cardinals should think alike when it comes to the Churchs infallible teachings. Tragically, thats not always the case; and, unless they repent, the dissenters will have to answer to God. How each individual Cardinal passes on and applies those teachings is up to him, as long as he does it in an orthodox way. Same thing with disclipines and practices, and just general running of an Archdiocese.

Beliefs on issues like, say, the death penalty, or whether a nation should or should not be a republic, are, of course, the “rightful property” of the individual Cardinal, and everyone else.

PS
The Jensens are very “Low Church”, so im not so convinced that they and Cardinal Pell would be too matey. Thats only pure speculation on my part, though, and im happy to be corrected on that. (They messed up the interior of Saint Andrews Cathedral.)

PPS
Regarding the President of Ireland: her opinions re “priestesses” are worthless. All it shows is that she`s not a good Catholic; and it points to the general backsliding of Irish Catholics.

---

PPS***
i can`t shut up! Serves you right for asking that question!

Plus: i`m NOT some ultimate authority.

I’m not asking you to shut up. I’m interested in your views.

I lived in Aus for four years, and there are various issues on which Jensen and Pell agree to disagree. But Cardinal Pell asked Abp Jensen to launch his biography (slightly to the embarrassment of the author, an Opus Dei member). They issue joint statements, eg on the Iraq war; and they have very similar views on homosexuality and women priests.

They both refer to each other as “friends”.

Do you have any non-RC friends?

 

[zach_dunn]

Let’s not forget wearing those evil cotton/polyester blends.

As estebob has stated, Jewish dietary and hygiene laws are not binding on Christians. The sinfulness of homosexual acts, however, is part of the natural law which God has written into our hearts.

 

[zach_dunn]

1. You don’t know that. One in particular seems suspect. Celibate no doubt, but suspect nonetheless. Check out the Last Supper painting.

Which apostle are you talking about? As far as I know, St. Paul was the only apostle who was very outspoken about his own celibacy and the importance of celibacy for man . . . and he wasn’t at the Last Supper . . .