"homosexual person" myth or Truth

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Thorolfr said:
Many uninformed straight people use the term “homosexual lifestyle” when talking about gay people. Can you tell me what you think this lifestyle entails? Is there also a heterosexual equivalent called the “heterosexual lifestyle” (I’ve rarely heard that term used)?
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The homosexual lifestyle is a disordered lifestyle in which persons of the same sex engage in sexual acts. The alcoholic lifestyle is a disordered lifestyle in which persons habitually abuse alcohol. To wit:
Even if there is a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality (and studies on this point are inconclusive), the behavior remains unnatural because homosexuality is still not part of the natural design of humanity. It does not make homosexual behavior acceptable; other behaviors are not rendered acceptable simply because there may be a genetic predisposition toward them.

For example, scientific studies suggest some people are born with a hereditary disposition to alcoholism, but no one would argue someone ought to fulfill these inborn urges by becoming an alcoholic. Alcoholism is not an acceptable “lifestyle” any more than homosexuality is.
 
PaulfromIowa said:
OP, I think that the Catechism is offering the correct and wise teaching here.
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I believe it is unwise to start from a false premise as the Magisterium has done here in CCC 2357:

“Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or
predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.”

I believe no one has an exclusive SSA. Why would you?
PaulfromIowa said:
There is no question that there are many persons with SSA, even though they are a small percentage of the population. The Catechism could have said “persons with SSA” instead of “homosexual persons,” but what difference would that really make?
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I don’t question that some people struggle with SSA my prayers are with them it doesn’t follow that
anyone experiences an exclusive SSA as the Magisterium claims, for reason they cannot supply.

I have had many people rationalize their belief that the mythical “homosexual person” real and I have
had many people claim scientific proof that the mythical “homosexual person” real. None of the so
called scientific proof is verifiable. People can claim that I am not open minded; what they have not,
and cannot do, is to show a truly right and just reason to believe anyone has an exclusive SSA as
claimed by the Magisterium and the Magisterium does not put a time frame on this, implied or
otherwise, the claim is clear, unambiguous and false.

If we lived in a vacuum I would be silly pursuing this but we do not. I believe the Lord has purpose for
His Church in the real world. I believe that action or lack of action by the Church has consequence.
I believe if the Church had stood up 50 years ago and properly said that the “homosexual person”
(as defined by the Magisterium) does not exist the reality of same-sex “marriage” in the secular world
would not be accepted today. I believe it wrong for the Magisterium make the claim that anyone has
the capacity to “experience an exclusive … sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex”. I do
not have the privilege to know God’s full plan for man but what I do know tells me that this claim by
the Magisterium is not in harmony with God’s plan. I believe the Lord established His Church to give
direction to the world not to look to the world for direction. I believe the Lord gave us His Church to be
a pillar of truth in a world full of temptation not to be a barometer of the current secular consensus as
the Magisterium has in this instance. It saddens me that the Magisterium had not made the moral
stand a long time ago and reject this false premise of the “homosexual person” rather than embrace
it. I believe it is never too late to correct an error the Lord is forgiving.

I believe it is cruel for the Magisterium to encourage confused individuals to believe they are something
that doesn’t exist. I believe this only serves the evil one and not the Lord. I believe Satan is a compelling
liar and the Magisterium does not have authority to present what is false as true in the name of the Lord’s
Church.

The good news is that I already know the end result the Lord will have the Magisterium correct it’s error
in a time and manor as the Lord sees fit. Please help and serve the Lord.

God bless
 
o_mlly said:
The homosexual lifestyle is a disordered lifestyle in which persons of the same sex engage in sexual acts. The alcoholic lifestyle is a disordered lifestyle in which persons habitually abuse alcohol. To wit:
Even if there is a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality (and studies on this point are inconclusive), the behavior remains unnatural because homosexuality is still not part of the natural design of humanity. It does not make homosexual behavior acceptable; other behaviors are not rendered acceptable simply because there may be a genetic predisposition toward them.

For example, scientific studies suggest some people are born with a hereditary disposition to alcoholism, but no one would argue someone ought to fulfill these inborn urges by becoming an alcoholic. Alcoholism is not an acceptable “lifestyle” any more than homosexuality is.
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So when two persons of the opposite sex (including married people) engage in sexual acts, is it legitimate to call that the “heterosexual lifestyle”? And what about the “bisexual lifestyle” and the “asexual lifestyle”? We shouldn’t forget those.

Can someone have a number of different lifestyles all at the same time? Can they, for example, have a “green lifestyle” (i.e. engaging in activities that consume fewer resources and produce less harmful waste), a “surfer lifestyle” and a “heterosexual lifestyle” all at the same time?

According to Merriam-Webster, the word “lifestyle” means: “the typical way of life of an individual, group, or culture”. According to Wikipedia, “the term lifestyle can denote the interests, opinions, behaviours, and behavioural orientations of an individual, group, or culture.” So aside from who they have sex with, do you think that homosexuals have a lot of other distinctive interests, opinions, behaviors, etc?
 
Bookcat said:
Yes correct it is a deadly sin (mortal) objectively if there is grave matter - in that sense of the term. And it is a deadly sin (mortal) subjectively if there is grave matter, full knowledge and complete consent…]
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The definition of “term” as used in listing the seven deadly sins is a word used to describe a specific thing.

One confuses the term by denying the word’s specificity by suggesting it has multiple meanings as “in that sense of the term” implies. There is no other sense of the term “lust” other than one of the deadly sins.

As I posted before, the “temptation to lust” is not “lust.” The “temptation to anger” is not “anger.” Anger and lust are both willed sins.

To suggest that the sin and the temptation to it are identical in name creates confusion.

To the OP’s topic, the unchecked perduring homosexual orientation is evil. Just as the unchecked perduring adulterous inclination is evil. Neither attitude may abide in a child of God.
 
Thorolfr said:
So when two persons of the opposite sex (including married people) engage in sexual acts, is it legitimate to call that the “heterosexual lifestyle”? And what about the “bisexual lifestyle” and the “asexual lifestyle”? We shouldn’t forget those.
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As I posted, the lifestyle in which the sexual acts are moral is in the valid and lawfully married union of two persons of the opposite sex.
Thorolfr said:
Can someone have a number of different lifestyles all at the same time? Can they, for example, have a “green lifestyle” (i.e. engaging in activities that consume fewer resources and produce less harmful waste), a “surfer lifestyle” and a “heterosexual lifestyle” all at the same time?
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I believe the OP invites discussion only on homosexuality. Another thread seems needed to expand the topic as suggested above.
Thorolfr said:
According to Merriam-Webster, the word “lifestyle” means: “the typical way of life of an individual, group, or culture”. According to Wikipedia, “the term lifestyle can denote the interests, opinions, behaviours, and behavioural orientations of an individual, group, or culture.” So aside from who they have sex with, do you think that homosexuals have a lot of other distinctive interests, opinions, behaviors, etc?
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Do you think heterosexuals have other distinctive interests, opinions and behaviors?
 
o_mlly said:
As I posted before, the “temptation to lust” is not “lust.” The “temptation to anger” is not “anger.” Anger and lust are both willed sins.

.
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Yes there are “temptations” to anger that do not involve yet anger. Sure.

But it is also true that:

Anger is anger.

There is anger that is oriented in a sinful way -but which is not consented to and resisted. Such anger though it is felt - can end in virtue. But that *anger * - truly exists.

Anger that is venial matter with knowledge and consent - is a sin of anger.

Anger that is grave matter with full knowledge and complete consent is a mortal sin of anger.

Just anger too- is anger.

Yes the anger that is listed among the “capital sins” is sinful anger.

Yes both the sin of anger and the sin of lust are both willed sins (there is no other culpable sin then that which involves the will).

Anger and lust though can both “exist” without any will. Such can yes happen.

Thankfully such can be ground for virtue.
 
Bookcat said:
Yes there are “temptations” to anger that do not involve yet anger. Sure.

But it is also true that:

Anger is anger.

There is anger that is oriented in a sinful way -but which is not consented to and resisted. Such anger though it is felt - can end in virtue. But that *anger * - truly exists.

Anger that is venial matter with knowledge and consent - is a sin of anger.

Anger that is grave matter with full knowledge and complete consent is a mortal sin of anger.

Just anger too- is anger.

Yes the anger that is listed among the “capital sins” is sinful anger.

Yes both the sin of anger and the sin of lust are both willed sins (there is no other culpable sin then that which involves the will).

Anger and lust though can both “exist” without any will. Such can yes happen.

Thankfully such can be ground for virtue.
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Sorry, I do not follow your line of thought in this post.
 
o_mlly said:
Sorry, I do not follow your line of thought in this post.
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Read it again.

There are various matters being discussed. And some of them are in response to your post. Others are for clarity on a larger scale.
 
Bookcat said:
The Magisterium is not presenting as true what is false.
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The Magisterium claims a group of people experience an exclusive SSA. What causes you to believe this is true?
Bookcat said:
Your difficulty here is your* over estimating* the meaning of the phrase.
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Can you explain how I am overestimating the plain language used by the Magisterium. What do you believe
exclusive SSA means?
Bookcat said:
And reducing the reality of homosexual attractions to “temptations”.
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Why do you think “homosexual attractions” more than a temptation? Are there other sinful attractions that
are more than temptations?

God bless
 
jjr9 said:
The Magisterium claims a group of people experience an exclusive SSA. What causes you to believe this is true?
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Because huge numbers of people who identify as gay or homosexual say that they experience exclusive same-sex attraction? Are you suggesting that they’re lying?
 
DERMOTRE said:
I have slowly discerned over many years * that homosexuality and other sexual perversions have their roots in Original Sin. Let me state I am a heterosexual man, married for almost 40 years with 4 children [and 3 grandchildren…they are great but I’m biased and I love them with all my heart]. There is in my opinion an incredible complex relationship between body and soul and consequently in human sexuality. God created them Male and Female and this complementarity is designed for procreation. The “Fall” of Adam and Eve has injured this complementary link of male and female but has not completely destroyed it. Satan is working very hard in these end times to destroy “Life” as he cannot bear God’s Love for humanity in sending Jesus [2nd person in the Holy Trinity] to redeem humanity. We must never cause unjust discrimination or harm to homosexual persons but must nevertheless stand firm in the Truth of the Church. Homosexual persons needless to say find this teaching very difficult to understand and they need our prayers. Jesus through the Holy Spirit can bring conversion to any heart who seeks Him out. “Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you”*
I agree with you that Satan is working very hard, as he always has, I don’t know if this is the end times
the Lord will pick a time of His choosing this is not for us to say. Of course we should strive to be ready
if we seek Eternal Life. Why do you think that the Magisterium should spread the lie of Satan that the
mythical “homosexual person” is real? Do you have something that causes you to believe that anyone
experiences an exclusive SSA?

God bless
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jjr9 said:
The Magisterium claims a group of people experience an exclusive SSA. What causes you to believe this is true?
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I take it exactly for what it says.

No numbers are given. This is not a statistics report.

But the Catechism

It says “who experience an exclusive **or **predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex”

It is covering both.
 
jjr9 said:
Can you explain how I am overestimating the plain language used by the Magisterium.
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Your taking the phase “homosexual persons” and investing it with meaning it was not intended bear. Investing it with some deep metaphysical meaning regarding the their nature as persons…

It is rather like the term “handicapped persons” the Catechism uses.

Handicap is simply a qualifier. Not some deep identity of the persons involved.

They rather simply persons.

And indeed as baptized persons -they are Christians. Children of God, saints…
 
jjr9 said:
Why do you think “homosexual attractions” more than a temptation? Are there other sinful attractions that
are more than temptations?

God bless
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Because it is.

Just as alcoholism is more than a temptation to drink too much.
 
jjr9 said:
I
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It is important to read all that the Church Teaches regarding this difficulty and to read that that phrase as it is intended by the Church - rather than according to your framework.
 
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