homosexual priests and seminarians: your thoughts?

[NPC]

Only a very,very small number of the moletations were pediophilc. As I said the nearly 90% were perpetauted by Homosexual Priests. The Church did not enforce their policy of not allowing homosexuls in the Priesthood starting the mid 60s and we have paid a terrible, terrible price for that. We must not repeat it and we must not buckle under to a culture that says we are degrading homosexuals by poinitng out the truth

Surely an act of sexual abuse perpetrated against a child is a paedophilic act whether it’s carried out by a homosexual or heterosexual person… Also, you are making a link between paedophilia and homosexuality - a homosexual is no more predisposed to paedophilic behaviour than a heterosexual is. What one must consider, in the case of homosexual priests (or indeed heterosexual priests) who abused youngsters, is whether they abused because of their sexuality or was it because the priesthood was not the place for them. Sexuality does not necessarily cause one to abuse.

I know that in Ireland in the 1960’s, our seminaries were overflowing… now we have but one seminary for the whole country. If you joined the priesthood in 1960’s Ireland, you were guaranteed the companionship of your many fellow priests, a stable job (in schools, hospitals, etc), the chance to travel as a missionary, the status you gained in society was equal to that of the doctor, and finally, it was always considered an honour to have a priest in the family - indeed it was expected that in a large family, at least one son would become a priest. So, it stands to reason that there were many, many, priests who joined the priesthood in Ireland for the wrong reasons… and one of those reasons, I have no doubt, was an attempt to suppress homosexuality - which would bring shame and stigma to one’s family.

These days, I think we actually have less to worry about re homosexuals entering the priesthood. 1960’s Ireland is dead and gone, and while we only have a few seminarians now, we may be more certain that these men are entering for the right reasons ie. the actual sense of a calling from God. Anyone these days with homosexual tendancies knows that there are ways of dealing with it where they won’t be shunned by society- I have no doubt but that for many, the only means of ‘escape’ was to join the priesthood. The same goes for the many men who perpetrated the horrors of sexual abuse on children…

 

[vocatio]

Let me stick my neck out. It’s not the fact that someone is attracted to persons of the same sex, it’s the openly promoting it as okay. Being attracted to the same sex is not a sin in and of itself. I’ve heard a very straight guy jokingly say the even a very straght man would be sexually attracted to Brad Pitt. Well, he is a very attractive man. But you won’t see me or other men like me openly saying we would do something sinful like that, but in a sence the attraction is understandable…but it is sinful to ponder it and fanticize over it. A homosexual or bisexual person can remain straight. However someone that is still struggling with these urges of attraction are obviously problematic in that they are still not settled in their sexuality. Someone who is settled in their sexuality will not even go to carrying on about hereosexuality and not make it center of their life. That’s the problem. I believe that if a man, even though having same sex attraction, can be a very good priest as long as they know that it is wrong and teaches it to be so. There is a fear that a man with these sinful tendincies might councel someone into thinking it is okay.

I went to a priest that I sought councel form in the 80’s that after telling him I was concerned about a friend of mine, a roommate, was gay and way to attracted to me. His response was “what’s wrong with homosexuality” with a funny look on his face, which also explained the very feminine, pricy, guy walking around with his shirt off and short shorts in his rectory. Talk about scandalous. I now believe he was gay and not practicing chastity. I found his name at a parish in the same diocese. Thankfully, he’s not a pastor. I can tell you several stories that are deeply disturbing and are the cause of so many scandals in the Church. In a nut shell, these told and untold stories are the evidence of why the bishops hesitate to allow a same sex attraction person in the office of priest. It is a known fact that poeple with overly verbose sexual tendencies tend to have more difficulty keeping themselves transformed. They have explored way too much. One could easily write a book on this subject and I believe there are lots of material out on the internet that helped me come back to Rome. If the Church allowed this without serious scrutiny I would not feel comfortable being Catholic. I’d seiously consider going the the Eastern Catholic or the Eastern Orthodox where mosst of the priests are married men. But that has an entirely different dynamic with heterosexuallity and split time priests between the Church and their families. But that is the majority of my former Protestant background.

 

[debraran]

I agree that with the society not being as forbidding to gays, they don’t have to hide behind a fake marriage or go into the army or priesthood, professions that many hid in. But in all my associations with people who are gay and in my husbands career, most people who abuse children aren’t gay, they are just sick individuals. Whether they like boys, girls, young teens, both sexes, they aren’t the same as a normal gay woman or man that wants a relationship with a peer. Most gay men and women don’t want children or want to rape young 13 year olds. You can have a hetrosexual priest that loves kiddie porn, so what? Young girls also weren’t as big a part of the church then either, young boys were.
As a gay man told me once, how do you think I feel, feeling as you do, that any child sex is repugnant, having to deal with people thinking because I’m gay, I like that? He was with the same man for 20 years and I agreed, that I wouldn’t like to be pigeon-holed either. Nuns abused people too and nuns have been gay,but because they lack the power and stature, no one says gay women can’t be nuns.
The church can use a group of people to make it seem like “problem solved”, but it wont be. The real problem as that article I linked stated, was that leaders in the church, whether out of pride or they felt a kinship with them, let this sin grow into a cancer the church will have to live with. The fact that for years this went on, even when I was a kid (and I’m 45) and no one did anything is beyond disgraceful. Can you imagine Jesus walking the streets and hearing one of his apostles did something like that and saying, “send him to the next city?” The pride of not wanting to tarnish our church, our priests, and be holier than thou, will be a burden for many years. I think the priests seeing others weren’t prosecuted, felt it was okay to continue, maybe some earlier arrests would have stopped some activity.Only with God’s grace will we overcome it. And you and I know, if it ever happened again, we might not recover fully . I love our church, but this shame and how it was handled will always haunt me. I’m glad my church is Orthodox (Dominican) and for now it feels like a safe haven.

 

[estesbob]

Surely an act of sexual abuse perpetrated against a child is a paedophilic act whether it’s carried out by a homosexual or heterosexual person… Also, you are making a link between paedophilia and homosexuality - a homosexual is no more predisposed to paedophilic behaviour than a heterosexual is. What one must consider, in the case of homosexual priests (or indeed heterosexual priests) who abused youngsters, is whether they abused because of their sexuality or was it because the priesthood was not the place for them. Sexuality does not necessarily cause one to abuse

There was almost no pediophilia involved in the molestations. It was almost excusively homosexual rape. You cant change the defition of pediophilia in an attempt to disguise the homosexual nature of nearly all the molestations.

 

[vocatio]

You’re forgetting the very young and naive young men that get loured into homosexuallity. Statistically, homosexuals do not prey upon young children more than heterosexuals. The problem is that many gay men are practicing their urges when they shouldn’t at all. Their is still an understanging in the Church that homosexuality is rooted in demented thinking. Like it or not…I heard it many times within the last year on Catholic Radio. Now many people have differing opinions on the subject. But I was a teen whe all that crazy stuff occured to me by priests. And I wasn’t attracted to men…they were looking for ways to see if they had a chance with me. God blessed me with looks and they wanted a cute man vulnerable enough to fall prey to their desires. That is predator activity. Had I been more insecure I would not have resisted. But had I been even stornger, I’d be a priest today.

 

[estesbob]

I agree that with the society not being as forbidding to gays, they don’t have to hide behind a fake marriage or go into the army or priesthood, professions that many hid in. But in all my associations with people who are gay and in my husbands career, most people who abuse children aren’t gay, they are just sick individuals.n.

Homosexuals are at the most 3% of the population but account for over a third of child molestations.

 

[NPC]

There was almost no pediophilia involved in the molestations. It was almost excusively homosexual rape. You cant change the defition of pediophilia in an attempt to disguise the homosexual nature of nearly all the molestations.

I wonder how this is judged… that there was almost no paedophilia involved in the molestations…

I certainly have not attempted to disguise the homosexual nature of certain cases of sexual abuse - the facts are there for all to see. Nor am I attempting to make excuses for these most horrific of crimes. What I did explain, however, in my usual lengthy way, was that abuse didn’t necessarily occur because the men were homosexuals - homosexuals may have committed the acts, but they didn’t do so because they were homosexuals.

 

[estesbob]

I wonder how this is judged… that there was almost no paedophilia involved in the molestations…

I certainly have not attempted to disguise the homosexual nature of certain cases of sexual abuse - the facts are there for all to see. Nor am I attempting to make excuses for these most horrific of crimes. What I did explain, however, in my usual lengthy way, was that abuse didn’t necessarily occur because the men were homosexuals -** homosexuals may have committed the acts, but they didn’t do so because** they were homosexuals.

And you basis fot that statement is?. Are you tellng us that homosexualtiy is not involved in homosxeual rape?

 

[debraran]

I think it means that the illness knows no sex. Kiddie porn as my husband saw way too much of, is male and female and these range from very young to 13 or so. They are deviants and some like both, some like one sex or the other, b ut most are not “homosexuals” that are pediphiles (much research on this from good universities, not conservative groups) Straight men like young girls and boys too…it just that they are young. Some like both. It’s a sick, sick world that is very upsetting. If it’s a guy, he’s doesn’t want a 20 year old or a 30 year old, he just wants kids. That is not normal, although some think “regular homosexual” behaviour isn’t, which is why any blame is easier to take.
We had a priest in CT where I live openly live a homosexual life, he was gay, had an adult lover for years, took trips with him, spent church money on him, etc. and that was let go too until a brave priest turned him in amid scorn of some of his peers. Now HE was gay and living a gay lifestyle. He never in any allegations, wanted to hurt a kid or teenager. Other priests tell of relationships (no names) that they know some priests have with other gay males, but not children. That in itself is a disease. There are married men that sneak and look at young boys or girls and pay for them. They make up most of the pediphilia…that my husband can attest too.
I don’t think active gay men or women should be priests or nuns, the lifestyle goes against our teaching, but I know that isn’t the main problem. Why didn’t the church attract real vocations?? What besides prayer can they do?

 

[estesbob]

I think it means that the illness knows no sex. Kiddie porn as my husband saw way too much of, is male and female and these range from very young to 13 or so. They are deviants and some like both, some like one sex or the other, b ut most are not “homosexuals” that are pediphiles (much research on this from good universities, not conservative groups) Straight men like young girls and boys too…it just that they are young. Some like both. It’s a sick, sick world that is very upsetting. If it’s a guy, he’s doesn’t want a 20 year old or a 30 year old, he just wants kids. That is not normal, although some think “regular homosexual” behaviour isn’t, which is why any blame is easier to take.
We had a priest in CT where I live openly live a homosexual life, he was gay, had an adult lover for years, took trips with him, spent church money on him, etc. and that was let go too until a brave priest turned him in amid scorn of some of his peers. Now HE was gay and living a gay lifestyle. He never in any allegations, wanted to hurt a kid or teenager. Other priests tell of relationships (no names) that they know some priests have with other gay males, but not children. That in itself is a disease. There are married men that sneak and look at young boys or girls and pay for them. They make up most of the pediphilia…that my husband can attest too.
I don’t think active gay men or women should be priests or nuns, the lifestyle goes against our teaching, but I know that isn’t the main problem. Why didn’t the church attract real vocations?? What besides prayer can they do?

I’m curious as to why everybody wants to make excuses as to why homosexuality was not involved in these molestations. Again you use the word pediophilia and for the most part no pediophilia took place. I think this is the problem with our culture constantly reinforcing the false message that criticizing homosexual behavior wrong. We are told again and again that this is a normal behavior and should not be differentiated from heterosexual relationships. So when confronted with a scandal driven by homosexuality people look for excuses. Fortunately our church has made it clear that homosexual behavior is agrevious sin and it is not compatible with the preishood

 

[debraran]

Estesbob, I agree, people get defensive, but it’s just that certain groups become scapegoats for a problem that is more wide spread than that. I realize there are different names for different ages, but my main point is that the majority of homosexuals
would never dream of hurting a child or teen and it’s hard to see them all lumped together. Even if these priests disliked women, they weren’t acting like the majority of gay men, they were deviant and used sacred sacraments and their position to obtain sexual favors. That was really my main point.
I always said if I could ask any saint or person in heaven 3 questions, that one would be, Why have gay people always existed if it is wrong? Why do they feel differently then we do? I know evil exists, (which explains other hateful things like porn and rape, etc.) but being normal in everyway but your sexual desires is hard. A priest on this site told me it was a cross to carry, another priest told me he didn’t know, but he prayed for them. Fr. Groechel says they are called to be chaste.
. I’ve known many gay men and women, some single, some in committed relationships (longer than some marriages I know), very charitable, church going, nice people. They just can’t feel the same things I do. I’ve seen and read about horrible hates crimes toward gays, suicides by teens who felt they would never fit in, You know the pain some go through is awful.
I know God wanted man and woman to be together, the rest I probably will never figure out on earth.

I also don’t excuse the many priests who covered for these men and were blackmailed (some said they would “out” others if they pulled them out of their parish) and passed them along to hurt other children and teens. They didn’t love them, they didn’t care about their souls and how they perceive the church… The sin might be different, but they are as much to blame. That mindset has to change in the church too or other things will continue to happen.

 

[St_Aloysius]

There seems to be me to be an implicit accusation being made here: that all, or at least most, homosexual priests are pedophiles. Well, I don’t have an attraction to little kids… At most, I might be attracted to someone a year or so younger than me.

If the Church wishes to eliminate the problem of pedophilia, why not exclude pedophiles from ordination rather than homosexuals?

After all, where are people such as myself to go now? We can’t fulfil our highest aspiration of serving God in the ordained ministry… Now what? We have nowhere to go, all because of a few fools.

 

[CradleCath]

Most important in this discussion: in his intimate relationship with Christ, Mychal did not have a conflict with his being gay. **He accepted that this was how God made him — like being left-handed. He had grown beyond the toxic shame of biblical fundamentalism, and he reported directly to a Higher Authority than Rome. **

[SIGN]I don’t believe that if Mychal Judge was the priest that you say he was, that he would approve of your words above. First, as an educated man, he would know that there is nothing to prove that “God made him” homosexual. As a spiritual man, he would know that God is not the creator of evil tendencies.

Last, but certainly not least, he wouldn’t have liked your last sentence, if he was the good priest you say. Yes, God’s authority is second to none & He passed that authority on to His Church with the words, “Thou are Peter & upon this rock I shall build MY Church. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”[/SIGN]

[SIGN]I don’t know if you were a personal friend of Father Judge or have just read about him, as I have. I do know, however, that there are those who were friends & deny that he had a disordered sexual orientation. I don’t know whether he was homosexual or heterosexual but I don’t like the idea that some may be using him because he was a priest. You can find the following article on the internet:
A 9/11 Hijacking: How ‘Gay’ Activists Smeared Father Mychal Judge. [/SIGN]

 

[lak611]

There seems to be me to be an implicit accusation being made here: that all, or at least most, homosexual priests are pedophiles.

There were very few cases of pedophilia. Pedophilia by definition involves a child who has not gone through puberty. Most of the boys who were abused were teenagers.

 

[NPC]

And you basis fot that statement is?. Are you tellng us that homosexualtiy is not involved in homosxeual rape?

Don’t be ridiculous - of course one’s sexuality in the case of rape defines it as homosexual or heterosexual- it stands to reason that a homosexual rapist would prey on those of the same sex, as a heterosexual rapist would prey on someone of the opposite sex…

On what do I base the statement which you have highlighted? Common sense. I said ‘homosexuals may have committed the acts, but they didn’t do so because they were homosexuals’ - I absolutely stand by this. To say otherwise is to imply that they were bound to commit abuse because of their sexuality. Given the gravity and horror of the reality of abuse, this is a terrible prejudice to have against homosexuals.

As I said before - and I’m talking about the mid 20th century- I believe that many used the priesthood as a way of escape… I have already mentioned the opportunities the priesthood gave to people- the rewards were great and so, many joined who shouldn’t. Ireland was a country where homosexuality couldn’t be mentioned - it wasn’t an option; nor was the option of admitting to someone that one was a homosexual because of stigma and ridicule. Indeed, it is only in the last decade or so that people are ‘coming out’ publicly as homosexuals… Although, of course, we agree that homosexual acts are wrong and sinful, I think it’s a logical argument that homosexual (or indeed, heterosexual) priests abused not because of their sexuality, but rather because they suppressed it by trying to escape from it (ie to the priesthood)- perhaps, in that society, if there had been more support for certain people - from society as a whole & psychological- these people could have dealt with thing in a different way.

 

[debraran]

Cradle Cath, Fr. Mychal was an NON-practicing gay priest. If you read his inspiring bio, he was a priest that was devout but going to the beat of his own drummer too. He didn’t care who he upset if he knew he was doing God’s work in any area. When he died, you have to understand the church didn’t want the “gay” part becoming important because as someone stated on this site, people would say “he did it, why can’t we” and it would get difficult. He was a special man, hard to clone. A quote from that article shows even at his funeral it was mentioned.

“Only Father Mychal could get a room like this together,” said Joe Hartnett, an electrician and father of five from New Jersey, when he took his turn at the altar to speak. Judge had been a pastor at Hartnett’s parish in East Rutherford when he was a teenager. “I mean, I see firemen, policemen, recovering alcoholics, and people who are – uh, here’s a word I don’t use very often – gay.”

And yet this was precisely who Mychal Judge was: a devout, gay, recovering-alcoholic Catholic priest, a fabled New York figure who had a knack for telling great stories and would burst into old Irish standards at the drop of a hat. (His rendition of “Frankie and Johnny” was a legendary crowd-pleaser; by verse three, he’d have his handkerchief out, pretending to weep.) Judge had a Clintonian talent for making people feel as though they were the only ones in the room and a bartender’s gift for bringing strangers together. Like this crowd.

 

[vocatio]

There may be a distancing thing gonig on here too. Many Fundamentalist claim that at least half the priests are gay and use this a tool to scare people [Catholics] away from the Church. I know…I was part of a fundamentalist group. The priest scandals was the final nail in the coffin. I lashed out when the scandals broke loose. I blurted out with Thank God this finally happened. A predator can rake up a lot of victims really fast. I run into people from time to time that had issues… I’ve yet to meet a person that was truly pre-pubesent when victimized. They were all teens or younger adults…usually attractive people. It’s one of the reasons I wanted to see married priests return at least in a minor way to open the door to potentially a healthy heterosexual, preferrablly good families…I’m talking permanent diaconate candidate types. Because their children would be older and their role could have a major impact on other families. However, what I’ve discovered over the years is that people are people no matter where you go. Married priests is not necessarily the answer. But in a time of woundedness, the Church could use a bit of healing to show that it truly cares for it’s members. Allowing openly known homosexuals to become priests will inevitably lead to illicit activity just as priest trip into illicit heterosexual activities. It’s a human sexuallity thing. But in our anti-gay culture the scandals against same sex will have a greater impact on the Church and place us up there with groups like the Methodists and the Episcapalians. Like it or not homosexuallity leads to sin… Opening a door that attempts to normalize or justify homosexual tendencies will lead to greater sin…same sex marriage for example.

Sorry to do this, but their are people who want to legalize relationships with minors and beasts. They do exist and have been interviewed. it’s sick. opening the doors to justifying sinful tendencies is not the right choice. I wish it was okay then I wouldn’t have to worry about things I’ve seen and brush it off as it’s his or her choice. I’ve know some pretty decent people that are gay. But as you dig beneath the surface you find the wounded person. I’ve actually helped a same sex couple once and it ended up with me being put out of a lot of money with a newborn baby being born on medicaid. Their self-absorbed lifestyle marginalized my wife and I with a baby on the way. Sick. One of them even had children from a previous marriage. I’ve never met a gay person that wasn’t raped or abused in some way. It’s almost as if they are making the choice to hurt others for allowing them to be hurt. Having lived in a very high homosexual area…I’ve seen a lot of homosexuals, but I’m still no expert…it’s just my lay observation. So why would we want to be dumb enough to open the door wider for abuses? Why would you put a baby in a cage with a well trained hungry lion. Eventually the lion will act on intinct.

 

[St_Aloysius]

If a Catholic has homosexual inclinations but does not ACT on them, as was Father Mychal’s case, then why not allow him to be ordained? Hopefully the person is too delved into Christ to be fretting over his sexuality.

We should make sure the priests are of excellent character, but we should not determine that no homosexual may be admitted to the priesthood. Such would be a grave mistake and a betrayal of the Church’s long history of ordained ministers who were of the homosexual orientation.

 

[vocatio]

If a Catholic has homosexual inclinations but does not ACT on them, as was Father Mychal’s case, then why not allow him to be ordained? Hopefully the person is too delved into Christ to be fretting over his sexuality.

We should make sure the priests are of excellent character, but we should not determine that no homosexual may be admitted to the priesthood. Such would be a grave mistake and a betrayal of the Church’s long history of ordained ministers who were of the homosexual orientation.

Wrong. No one should be sexualizing a candidate for the priesthood. Current screening is based on recent experiences as far as I can see. I’ve read many article on this subject since it made a difference whether or not I came back to Catholicism. I was seriously considering the Easter Orthodox Church at first and then I went the Eastern Catholicism and finally came to my senses…I am a Western [Roman or Latin] Catholic that was deeply hurt by a lot of homosexual behavior from the clergy. It makes a difference.

St_Aloysius, the way you’re carrying on makes it look like you are in fact carrying an agenda. You should be warned about bringing your own agenda to the table of vocations. God will not look kindly on this. It must be His wil for you to be a priest. Personally, if you learned not to elaborate on this subject and keep it with your spiritual director, no body would know and you might be able to follow your calling, assuming this is what God is calling you to. I’m speaking from a wounded heart and anxiety from watching my children follow their calling.

Scenario. Let’s just say that many homosexual/bisexual people are allowed in the doors of a seminary or religious order. Not al make it and those that tend towards same sex attractions slip and start to derail others in their path…thus me and many others I know. This is one problem. Therefore before you get to the point where you submit an application for candidacy to the seminary you MUST get yourself under control without practicing any homosexuallity or heterosexuallity long before you enter the seminary. I was a virgin before entering the seminary and very naive. Apparently many of the other candidates were not virgin and openly discussed some pretty discusting things related to homosexuality and exhibited little to no embarrassment. That leads me to believe that they were not abstaining or in fact had many experiences prior to entering the seminary. It was very depressing to think that I would be a priest along side a lot of non-transformed priests in the end. And topping off unwanted advances by brother seminarians didn’t help.

 

[CradleCath]

There were very few cases of pedophilia. Pedophilia by definition involves a child who has not gone through puberty. Most of the boys who were abused were teenagers.

[SIGN]You are absolutely correct. One slight addition, which you probably know, is that once pubescence BEGINS paedophiles lose interest in a child. Boys enter puberty at an average age of 11 (one year later than girls) but it may begin anytime between 9 to 14 years. Which means, of course, that paedophilia played a small part in our sexual abuse crisis. It was mostly about pederasts, adult men who desire boys. It’s the dark side of homosexuality. I’m having trouble getting links to work on this board. I’ll try again:[/SIGN]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty