homosexual priests and seminarians: your thoughts?

[qubica]

why does it matter if you have 2 men who want to become priests - one with SSA and one with heterosexual attraction?

Simply put: One with SSA will find it 'going against the grain" to speak out against SSA to the souls he has charge of. There will be an inner conflict.

The one with attraction to the opposite sex will not be ‘going against the grain’ to argue against SSA. He will need to control his own behaviors, but they do not cause an inner conflict when reasoning on the purity of God’s marital plan.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The document goes on to mention the case of those who at one time showed homosexual tendencies of a transitory nature. How do you propose the Church deals with those? The document says that in such persons the tendencies must be overcome at least 3 years prior to ordination.

And in what crystal ball are they going to look in order to know that the homosexual tendencies are of a transitory nature, since nobody really knows anything about homosexuality’s causes or boundaries?

 

[NPC]

And in what crystal ball are they going to look in order to know that the homosexual tendencies are of a transitory nature, since nobody really knows anything about homosexuality’s causes or boundaries?

Ridgerunner - we are clearly coming at this from different sides, but this was a point I made about the document. Of course nobody knows how or when homosexual tendencies may manifest themselves, but when the document mentions ‘transitory nature’ it includes those who, while dealing with hormonal changes during puberty, for example, showed homosexual tendencies. Now at least two outcomes could occur - 1, that the person is not a homosexual (i.e. it was the hormones etc) - the tendencies were therefore genuinely transitory, or 2. the person actually is homosexual (i.e. it wasn’t just hormones at work), and these tendencies may crop up again at a later stage. As I’ve said before, I don’t want any child put in danger by exposure to any sexual predator, but would it be right to automatically exclude from the priesthood all who have had transitory tendencies due to puberty? Of course there’s a risk, but surely the best method we have is as the Church has directed- to monitor such candidates extremely closely. No method will be completely fool-proof - no matter how tough the tests are, some priest somewhere will abuse his power in some unsavoury way.

qubica:

Simply put: One with SSA will find it ‘going against the grain’ to speak out against SSA to the souls he has charge of. There will be an inner conflict.

Possible indeed but most certainly not necessarily so. Do you not think it is possible for a person with a same sex attraction to realise that their attractions are wrong? Although having same sex attraction is not a sin in itself, one does not have to be completely sinless to be able to recognise sin. Many the smoker who knows cigarettes are bad for their health but they don’t stop, yet they’ll discourage others from starting the habit… Many the alcoholic or gambler who is in this situation too. Granted, this isn’t comparing like with like exactly, but people don’t lose moral consciousness or awareness of sin because they have sinned. The real danger is hypocricy- if the congregation is aware that a priest is an active homosexual and then he preaches against it, or the priest who is an alcoholic denouncing excessive drinking or drink driving. Now, I’m not saying that if the congregation doesn’t know about ‘it’ then the priest can say what he likes, but whatever a priest personally believes about contraception for example, he is obliged to keep this to himself and teach the Church’s position rather than his own, but how credible would he be if people knew he was in favour of contraception, but tried to teach the Church’s position on the matter? I’ve gone well off the point, but just because one has approached a state of sin or is in a state of sin, does not mean that they are no longer able to recognise sin.

 

[sevendolours]

INSTRUCTION
CONCERNING THE CRITERIA
OF VOCATION DISCERNMENT
REGARDING PERSONS
WITH HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES
IN VIEW OF THEIR ADMISSION
TO THE SEMINARY AND TO HOLY ORDERS
ROME 2005

INTRODUCTION

In continuity with the teaching of Vatican Council II and, in particular, with the decree Optatam totius (1) on priestly formation, the Congregation for Catholic Education has published various documents to promote a suitable integral formation of future priests, offering orientations and precise norms on its diverse aspects. (2) In the meantime, the 1990 Synod of Bishops also reflected on priestly formation in current circumstances, with the intention of bringing to fulfillment the conciliar doctrine on this matter and of making it more explicit and incisive in the contemporary world. Following this synod, John Paul II published the Post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation Pastores dabo vobis (3)

In the light of this rich teaching, this current Instruction does not intend to deal with all questions of an affective or sexual nature that call for an attentive discernment during the entire period of formation. It contains norms concerning one particular question, which has been made more urgent by the current situation, and that is, the admission or not to the seminary and to Holy Orders of candidates who have deeply rooted homosexual tendencies.

1. Affective Maturity and Spiritual Paternity

According to the constant Tradition of the Church, only a baptized male may validly receive holy Ordination. (4) By means of the Sacrament of Orders, the Holy Spirit configures the candidate, in a new and specific title, to Jesus Christ: The priest, in fact, sacramentally represents Christ, Head, Pastor and Spouse of the Church. (5) Because of this configuration to Christ, the entire life of the holy minister must be animated by the giving of his entire person to the Church and by an authentic pastoral charity (6)

The candidate to the ordained ministry, therefore, must reach affective maturity. Such maturity enables him to place himself in a correct relationship with men and women, developing in himself a true sense of spiritual paternity with regards to the ecclesial community entrusted to him. (7)

1. Homosexuality and the Ordained Ministry

From Vatican Council II to today, various documents of the Magisterium – especially the Catechism of the Catholic Church – have confirmed the teaching of the Church on homosexuality. The Catechism distinguishes between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies.

Regarding acts, it teaches that, in Sacred Scripture, these are presented as serious sins. Tradition has constantly considered them as intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law. Consequently, they can never be approved in any case whatsoever.

For that which concerns deeply rooted homosexual tendencies, as can be seen in a certain number of men and women, these too are objectively disordered and often are a trial for these persons. Such persons must be welcomed with respect and delicacy: every indication of unjust discrimination in their regards must be avoided. They are called to realize the will of God in their lives and to unite the difficulties they might encounter to the Lord’s sacrifice of the Cross. (8)

In the light of this teaching, this dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to clearly reaffirm that the Church, while deeply respecting the persons in question, (9) cannot admit to the Seminary or to Holy Orders those who practice homosexuality, who present deeply rooted homosexual tendencies or who support the so-called ‘gay culture.

 

[sevendolours]

The above-mentioned persons are, in fact, in a situation that seriously hinders a correct relationship with men and women. Nor can the negative tendencies that can derive from the ordination of such persons with deeply rooted homosexual tendencies be overlooked.

If, on the other had, it is a question of homosexual tendencies that were only an expression of a passing problem such as, for example, that of an adolescence not yet completed, these must in any case be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate.

1. Discernment of the Suitability of Candidates by the Church

There are two aspects to every priestly vocation that cannot be separated: the free gift of God and the responsible freedom of man. Vocation is a gift of divine grace, received through the Church, in the Church and for serving the Church. Answering God’s call, a man offers himself freely to Him in love. (11) The desire alone to become a priest is not sufficient, and there is no right to receive Holy Orders. It is up to the Church – in her responsibility to define the necessary requisites for reception of the Sacraments instituted by Christ – to discern the suitability of one who wishes to enter the Seminary, (12) accompanying him during the formation years and calling him to Holy Orders, if he possesses the requisite qualities. (13)

The formation of the future priest must articulate, in an essential complementarity, the four dimensions of formation: human, spiritual, intellectual and pastoral. (14) In this context, what must be underscored is the particular relevance of human formation, the necessary foundation of all formation. (15) To admit a candidate to ordination to the diaconate, the Church must verify, among other things, that the affective maturity of the candidate to the priesthood has been reached. (16)

The call to Orders is the personal responsibility of the Bishop (17) or of the Major Superior. Taking into account the opinion of those to whom the formation has been entrusted, the Bishop or the Major Superior, before admitting a candidate to ordination, must reach a morally certain judgment about his qualities. In the event of a serious doubt in this regard, they must not admit him to ordination. (18)

Discernment about the vocation and the maturity of the candidate is also a serious duty of the rector and other formators in the seminary. Prior to every ordination, the rector must express his judgment on the qualities of the candidate that are requested by the Church. (19)

In discerning the suitability to ordination, the spiritual director has a very important duty. Even though bound by secrecy, he represents the Church in the internal forum. In his talks with a candidate, the spiritual director must especially remind him of the Church’s demands concerning priestly chastity and the specific affective maturity of the priest, as well as to help him to discern if he has the necessary qualities. (20) He has an obligation to evaluate all qualities of the (candidate’s) personality and to make sure that the candidate does not give evidence of sexual disturbances incompatible with the priesthood. If a candidate practices homosexuality or presents deeply rooted homosexual tendencies, his spiritual director, as well as his confessor, have the duty to dissuade him, in conscience, from proceeding to Ordination.

 

[sevendolours]

It is understood that the candidate himself is the primary person responsible for his own formation. (21) He must offer himself with trust to the discernment of the Church, of the Bishop who calls to Orders, of the rector of the seminary, of the spiritual director and of the other educators in the Seminary to whom the Bishop or Major Superior has entrusted the duty of forming future priests. It would be gravely dishonest if a candidate should hide his homosexuality in order to attain, notwithstanding everything, Ordination. Such an inauthentic behavior does not correspond to the spirit of truth, loyalty and availability that must mark the personality of one who believes he is called to serve Christ and His Church in the priestly ministry.

CONCLUSION

This Congregation reiterates the need for Bishops, Major Superiors and all interested parties who have responsibility to undertake an attentive discernment with regards to the suitability of candidates to Holy Orders, from admission to the Seminary up to Ordination. This discernment must be done in the light of a conception of ministerial priesthood in harmony with the teaching of the Church.

Bishops, Episcopal Conferences and Major Superiors should be vigilant so that the norms of this Instruction will be faithfully observed for the good of the candidates themselves and to thus always guarantee the Church suitable priests, true pastors according to the heart of Christ.

The Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, on August 31, 2005, approved this present Instruction and ordered its publication.

Rome, November 4, 2005, Memory of St. Charles Borromeo, patron of Seminaries.

Zenon Card. Grocholewski,

Prefetto

J. Michael Miller, C.S.B.

Titular Arch. of Vertara

Secretary

 

[sevendolours]

cybercatholics.com/joshua-leblanc/this-is-a-sample-joshua-leblanc-post

 

[He_Man]

Not saying I do or don’t advocate men who are homosexuals being priests…but, why would someone’s sexual preference need to come up, if he is living a chaste life?

Because, although that sounds, nice, statistically, there have been much higher rates of sexual activity among homosexual Priests and young men than there are among heterosexual Priests and women.

We can argue theory all we want, but what we are ultimately left with is reality. And that reality is that the preponderance of the cases cited in the Priest scandal involved teenage boys; not younger children, and not women.

“If they are chaste” sounds great, but it appears “they” have an inclination not to be. This is to condemn any individual outright, but the Holy Father has to act on the majority of cases, not base policy on a select few.

 

[vocatio]

"This is NOT] to condemn any individual outright, but the Holy Father has to act on the majority of cases, not base policy on a select few.

Thought I’d fix that for you He Man. I’m pretty sure that is what you meant to put.

 

[He_Man]

Yep, thanks man.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Now at least two outcomes could occur - 1, that the person is not a homosexual (i.e. it was the hormones etc) - the tendencies were therefore genuinely transitory, or 2. the person actually is homosexual (i.e. it wasn’t just hormones at work), and these tendencies may crop up again at a later stage. As I’ve said before, I don’t want any child put in danger by exposure to any sexual predator, but would it be right to automatically exclude from the priesthood all who have had transitory tendencies due to puberty? Of course there’s a risk, but surely the best method we have is as the Church has directed- to monitor such candidates extremely closely. No method will be completely fool-proof - no matter how tough the tests are, some priest somewhere will abuse his power in some unsavoury way.

QUOTE]

I’m sorry, but this sounds to me like “I’m ok with ordaining a homosexual as along as he’s not a homosexual.”

I’ll take your word for it that there are some who, at puberty had homosexual tendencies, but then lost them completely and forever, later on. But I trust you’ll forgive me for retaining some doubts about it, in the absence of any evidence that it’s so.

 

[CradleCath]

**And in what crystal ball are they **going to look in order to know that the homosexual tendencies are of a transitory nature, since nobody really knows anything about homosexuality’s causes or boundaries?

You have a good point Ridgerunner…anyone could lie about their sexual orientation & be accepted into a seminary. There will probably be SOME pederasts who will do so, simply because the priesthood offers access to young boys, Since the media highlighted the story of past abuse, more will be aware of it as a possibility. However, hopefully, these ‘ordinations’ , made without the knowledge of the Bishops & rectors will be few. For one thing, that kind of deception will certainly be exposed whie the pederast is going through formation in a completely “heterosexual Seminary”.

What worries me is that many of our Bishops are
squirming to avoid defining the document as the Pope intended the document to be defined. IMO., he is clearly rejecting the ordination of anyone with a homosexual orientation. What else can the term “homosexual tendencies” mean? One of the definitions of “tendency” is: TENDENCY implies an inclination sometimes amounting to an impelling force

As for transitory homosexuality, he is speaking of the period during puberty when some boys go through sexual confusion. By the time that they are old enough to enter the Seminary, this ambiguousness will no longer be present. They will know by then whether they are gay or straight, if they are mature young men of 18 or above.

SO: What the pope is saying is that NO homosexuals may be ordained, either those who are suffering from these disordered desires, or those who are not mature enough yet to HAVE s set orientation at all.

I am wondering if any of you have a fear that the document will suffer the same fate as John XXIII’s did? Will the Bishops just knowlingly misinterpret it or ignore it completely? You must remember that many of our hierarchy in the US. are gay themselves.

 

[vocatio]

byzantines.net/epiphany/ordination.htm

Reality dictates that the Church would benefit greatly by returning to the ancient practice of ordaining married men tot he priesthood. This would defuse the feminist groups that are pushing hard for ordaining women. Homosexual men do not need to be primary candidates for priesthood. I have no problem with anyone that can control their urges, but if the inclinations are too high and they become addicted to sex like many men throughout the world do today then not just no but H E double toothpicks NO! The real issues surrounding married men to the priesthood are complex. Sure celibate men make better candidates for pastoring, but married men would provide something that celibates can’t, experience with family life, raising children, nurturing a healthy marriage.

It’s a discipline, not a dogma. If you read the article n the subject you will see how celibacy developed. Sure we know and understand the indelible mark placed upon a male once ordained or married. But it was done as a matter of fact, not fantacy. Homosexuality will always be around. After all we do live in a culture of death.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I am wondering if any of you have a fear that the document will suffer the same fate as John XXIII’s did? Will the Bishops just knowlingly misinterpret it or ignore it completely? .

If I had to bet or die, I would bet that many of the present bishops will do so, yes.

 

[deborahssong]

Greetings in the Lord,
Let me say that what I am about to share I am doing so in love! Love never lies and only wants what God wants for others. His best! HIS!! as i have read this I am so grieved in my heart for what all of you seem to believe except for a few. Please let me point to the word of God, Romans 1 as a matter of fact. Please tell me what you believe the apostle Paul meant by what he wrote? also in 1cor 5 he was dealing with a sexually immoral young man and as a matter of fact he told them to put him( this young man who would not repent) out of the church! The corinthians were lying abou this incident and condoning this leud behavior. In the church! The churcb is suppose to represent holiness and God created man and woman, not man to be with man. or woman with woman. Does anyone really get what happened at sodom and gomorrah? Because the catholic church beleives that tradition is just as accurate as Gods word DOESNT change Gods word.
The church in general has got to take Holy Scripture more seriously that they do. Also please dont tell me some were born this way…then you are saying God made a mistake in creation? read genesis. oh I know man has since sure corrupted society and generation after generation this is seen…homosexuality according to the word of God is still sin and those who practice this or any other immoral behavior will not SEE THE kINGDOM OF HEAVEN. THAT IS THE TRUTH! and if the church ever changes its stand on this may God help them!! I reecntly saw an interview with a priest who represented the vatican and he most implicitly said that the church acknowledges that homosexuality is a sin. It was an interesting interview…because so many churches are allowing such activity within. My dear friends In Yeshua…doesnt matter what you think is ok…your rule of guudiance will be Gods word and we willbe judged accordingly! and i do know what i am talking about…Please check out Exodus International. They are helping hundreds of men and women find out who they are…created.
My cousin has been suicidal and lives in a state of depression all of the time and has for years. IF being homosexual is right then why isnt he happier? Scripture will asnwer that as well. Because we are not created to live our lives who we are not! Please hear me when i say, I can say this with a firm voice. My spirit was blinded and praise God for twenty four years I am no longer blind! The tendancy I had when I was young (teenage girl) was due to some serious childhood wounds, ( which open up all sorts of wrong ideas about life and sexuality, when introduced incorrectly,leaves incorrect ideas and a place for the enemy to pervert what God made beautful!) and most of the men and women that I have counseled had either similar experiences or had a dominating parent that NEVER nurtured the special needs of this person. Homosexuality is a perversion of Gods truth! I am not out in left field. Now I am sure there will be much denial, but scripture is truth! That is and should be our dividing line…and the vatican says they too agree…I pray that never changes! Our God is awesome and He created men and women to be mates. Not my words folks but Gods. No matter what you say you CANNOT change that.
I am free and delivered from a horrid mixed up young adult life! I am so thankful Jesus came to me and HE made me free! The church has got to get serious about our character within! Dealing with all deliberate sin and getting serious about holiness…which means set apart. We who are in Christ are set apart!!! Scripture has not changed!

Shalom and God Bless.

Deborah

 

[Deborah_Kloos]

I don’t think a person’s sexual orientation should matter whether a person can become a priest because a priest makes a vow to be chaste, therefore would not be sexually active anyway. I don’t think a person’s sexual orientation would effect whether or not they would make a good priest. There is a shortage of priests as it is and I think that everyone should have an opportunity to answer their calling to dedicate their life to Christ. The only people who should not be allowed to be priests should be pedophiles. We should pray for all those called to the vocation of priesthood that God bless them and fill them with His love.

 

[SenorSalsa]

like many people have stated already, sexual orientation should not be a factor in a vocation that requires celebacy, unless you are trying to infer that someone the temptation of a male towards a male would be greater than that of a male towards a female, which i highly doubt can be proven.

secondly, we must understand that pedophelia is not the same as homosexuality, and orientation of the person often has little to nothing to do with the molestation of boys vs girls, so to bring up the priest scandal(which, I agree is a tragic thing) is completely irrelavent.

the only problem i could see in such a priest is the inablity to espouse Catholic Dogmas on Gay Marraige, but to deny them as a whole is ridiculous. This would be equivalent to saying that it is only gay people who support gay rights, selection of priests should be based on an agreement with Church teachings and not something that is more and more coming to be seen as a born identity, and not a bred choice.

 

[Ridgerunner]

like many people have stated already, sexual orientation should not be a factor in a vocation that requires celebacy, unless you are trying to infer that someone the temptation of a male towards a male would be greater than that of a male towards a female, which i highly doubt can be proven.**Except for the fact that male homosexual contacts are vastly more numerous that male heterosexual contacts, and the fact that the great majority of the “abuse” cases involved homosexual relationships with young me, you would be right. It can’t be “proved” because it can’t be studied except by simply counting the numbers. But if you look at the numbers, you almost have to twist your own arm and waterboard yourself to convince yourself that the temptation is not greater for homosexuals. **

secondly, we must understand that pedophelia is not the same as homosexuality, and orientation of the person often has little to nothing to do with the molestation of boys vs girls, so to bring up the priest scandal(which, I agree is a tragic thing) is completely irrelavent.Agreed, pedophilia is not the same thing as homosexuality. But homosexuality is not irrelevant. Most of the “abuse” cases were NOT cases of pedophilia, but sexual relationships with post-pubescent young men. The homosexual “abuse” is a stand-alone problem.

the only problem i could see in such a priest is the inablity to espouse Catholic Dogmas on Gay Marraige, but to deny them as a whole is ridiculous. This would be equivalent to saying that it is only gay people who support gay rights, selection of priests should be based on an agreement with Church teachings and not something that is more and more coming to be seen as a born identity, and not a bred choice. **But why are we even supposed to thinkof it as inborn? Because it’s politically correct now to say it? There is not the slightest scientific evidence of that. It’s just a political notion. Nothing more. And would agreement with Church teachings cause one to trust an incurable pedophile with children? One who also was firm in his mental commitment not to molest children in his child? We don’t know a thing more about homosexuality than we do about pedophilia, you know. But we do have a lot of ruined lives to show for our trusting that people have control over it. **

 

[deborahssong]

Greetings…

I understand the church's stand on explaining this issue according to THEIR counsels, dogmas, and such. The word of God is the truth!  We aer created man and woman......to be help mates, to bring children into the world, to fulfill the initial plan of God for humanity.................we cannot reason or explain the original plan of God away!!!! Doctrines, opinions, and such cannot remove what God has said.......Priests are celebate when single for a purpose to.... reflect the Holiness of God....to bring glory to His kingdom.  homsexuality is a PERVERSION of what God intended to be whole....the love between a man and a woman....HIS creation.
 The confusion in puberty is greatly marked by family life, and experiences within and outside of that family! Healthy family surroundings either in action, word, or both, will give solidity to any confusion a youngster may have. That is what the church must deal with. For a priest to be anything other than what the word of God says.....is sin, and cannot be tolerated within the church. There is no room for any political correctness in the church.......that is a society, modern day term.....not facts of truth!!!  
 My cousin has wasted most of his life belieivng something that most apparently keeps his soul in torment!  How can that be of God?  The word says God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.....then in the Didache life and death is described......life is living what Jesus said....and the gospel has much to say about sin!!!!!  may the Lord bless all..........

Deborah

 

[SenorSalsa]

it may just be me, but this topic seems to slip in and out of ourtright bashing of Homosexuals. I think all of us need to remember what it says in the Catechism:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. **By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. **

The Cathecism, and therefore the Magisterium of the Church seems to be in agreement that Homosexuality is not a sin, but “a trial” Homosexual acts are a sin. But it is made clear that people can, even as Homosexuals, commit themselves fully and fruitfully to the Lord