Homosexual Relationships

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What bothers me is not that you have somehow made peace with church teaching regarding homosexuality. It’s when it’s done at the peril of giving society false expectations and simplified conclusions regarding others.
Hi truagape. I think it’s important to realize that my coming to peace with the Church’s teaching and ultimately with myself was not a simple task. There is no “simplified” conclusion with regards to sexuality. In fact, there is no conclusion because it’s a life-long process. What your statement above leaves me wondering is how you think it would be possible for me to make peace with Church teaching without doing so at the peril of giving “false expectations”? Am I supposed to not speak about what my experience has been simply because society may disagree with the Church?
Think about it like this: The apostle Paul was perfectly content remaining single, even going as far as to say that it was better not to marry. Now what if he used his contentness with being single to argue against anyone else who wanted to marry. Couldn’t that be “what’s worse” from someone else’s perspective?
I could see someone being upset if Paul argued against anyone who wanted to marry. Like Paul, I didn’t make an argument against anyone. All I did was share my perspective on the subject of homosexuality and faith. I believe it is better for a homosexual man not to be in a sexual relationship. I’m not demanding it of anyone or arguing against anyone. One is welcome to look closer at what I believe or drop it like a ton of bricks. The choice is theirs. All I can do is vouch for what I believe.

Have a great day. Peace!
 
Gen.19:4-5.This is a reference to homosexual acts.The townsmen are trying get their hands on the visitors to have intimacies with them. if this does not refer to homosexual relations,what does it refer to?
Actually that passage says “so that we may know them” and doesnt say “intimaces with them”.

This can be taken a couple of ways:
  1. They want to know who these visitors are.
Or
  1. They want to KNOW them, commit sexual acts with them.
If its the first one, then there is nothing homosexual at all.

If its the second one, it still wouldnt be homosexual, it would be gang rape (that is going by the belief that the men didnt know they were angels. If they did know, then it would be beastiality).

It also wouldnt be an act of homosexuality because it would be an attempt to degrade/humilliate the angels/men. Back then it was a common practice to buggerise someone to degrade and humilliate that person, for example the victors of a battle would do so to the survivors of the losing side.

It was also why they refused the offer of Lots daugters, because it wasnt a sexual thing.
 
Let me just say that I am actually glad that you are at peace with who you are and I wish you all the best with you life and that of your family.
It is not homosexual desires that is the sin here.

As an ex-homosexual, I know first hand what the struggles of this person are. I too looked for human relationships, and human power to make me happy. It would last for awhile, and then it would fail, and I would fall back into the same depressive, drinking, drugging etc, until the next one came along. This was frustrating, as I was looking for true love and happiness. I was really addicted to falling in love and was a good sprinter, but those relationships rarely last with no good foundation.
This doesnt really sound like homosexuality had anything to do with it.

It sounds like you were jumping from one physical relationship to another, a hint of “sleeping around” possibly but I could be wrong, taking drugs, excessive drinking possibly binge drinking. That is something that hetrosexuals do and it has the same result.

Basiclly you were afraid to be alone which is a fear that many people have and you possibly had self esteem issues. You were looking for something to fill a void.
After coming to know Christ the desire for the same sex left me in the blink of an eye, along with alcohol and drugs, i finally found the True Love I had been looking for in all of those bars and other places my whole life. The enduring love of God.
It is very probable that you were looking for love/companionship in the wrong places (bars and clubs are full of people with the same ideas).
I understand that homosexual acts are disordered, as they never have life giving qualities and are scientifically unnatural. place 1 million homosexual couples on an island with everything they need to survive and in 100 years, you have all dead homosexuals. Place only ten heterosexual couples on that same island for only ten years and you have a village, flourishing and growing.
This comparison is getting pretty old now and its not relavent. I think that homosexuals have got the idea that they cant breed through homsexuality.
I also understand that 100% of those wanting to escape the homosexual lifestyle had a non existent father figure, a bad father figure who was not present or abusive, or were sexually abused by an older male figure when they were very young.

Those catagories have changed a little.
Its still false and doesnt hold up, and the revese would be true as well.
This in no way means that all single parent children will be homosexual, but it does mean that the normative family relationship with good parents certainly decreases this trend. As our society becomes more and more saturated with pornography, internet, television and work, and materialism in general, the rise of homosexual children will grow by leaps and bounds, because the normative healthy family is becoming less of the norm and more of the exception. A society is only as strong as the families that occupy it.

Actually I think that the larger tollerance of homosexuality will see homosexuality rise, dont forget that it wasnt until quite recently that homosexuality was actually illegal (punishable by (name removed by moderator)risionment and even execution).
It doesn’t take scripture to prove what homosexuality is caused by or how it is disordered, it takes simple science and facts concerning the results of homosexual acts.
Um actually science is still unsure of the cause. The last I heard was that could be the combination of genetics (or neurological) and enviroment, but even that is still under debate.
Homosexual persons are called to chastity, anything else would be unnatural and against the natural moral law.
No offence, but why wernt you called to chastity?
They can receive and give love to many many others, and be in service to God and others, just as those heterosexuals who are not married. no different. Any sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman is unnatural and out of context, therefore a sin, or defect of the human character as it was originally intended to be.
i hope this helps. peace, Justin
If I can ask a, well personal question.

Do you get homosexual urges/compulsions?

If it is too personal, just say so. I am sorry if it is and I caused any upset/distress.
 
Can someone explain that David was not in a sexual relationship with Johnathan? This is one claim I had never heard of and I would like to give an answer back soon. Thanks!
 
Actually that passage says “so that we may know them” and doesnt say “intimaces with them”.

This can be taken a couple of ways:
  1. They want to know who these visitors are.
Or
  1. They want to KNOW them, commit sexual acts with them.
If its the first one, then there is nothing homosexual at all.

If its the second one, it still wouldnt be homosexual, it would be gang rape (that is going by the belief that the men didnt know they were angels. If they did know, then it would be beastiality).

It also wouldnt be an act of homosexuality because it would be an attempt to degrade/humilliate the angels/men. Back then it was a common practice to buggerise someone to degrade and humilliate that person, for example the victors of a battle would do so to the survivors of the losing side.

It was also why they refused the offer of Lots daugters, because it wasnt a sexual thing.
Good post Elric…a point, one of the reasons men “buggerized” other men in order to humiliate them was to make them “like a woman”…which was an insult of the greatest puportions.
 
Good post Elric…a point, one of the reasons men “buggerized” other men in order to humiliate them was to make them “like a woman”…which was an insult of the greatest puportions.
Thank you 🙂

And thank you for that other point. I couldnt figure out a way to write it.
 
I’ll take the word of someone who is in commuion with the Holy Spirit over that of an anonymous poster on the internet, thanks.
How does one tell when “another” is in communion with the Holy Spirit? When the “other” thinks as you think and believes as you believe. Huh?
 
In response to the first post, you are accepting a half-truth, a LIE, purported by the evil one. Do not allow yourself to rationalize something which is inherently evil, and SELFISH of you, if you allow others to be led into believing having “homosexual companions” is good when it is not. Stop trying to ease your conscience and theirs. A lesser good is always an evil. 🤷

This will sound mean, but shame on you for not stepping in when fiends are putting their immortal souls in serious jeporady.
 
Actually that passage says “so that we may know them” and doesnt say “intimaces with them”.

This can be taken a couple of ways:
  1. They want to know who these visitors are.
Or
  1. They want to KNOW them, commit sexual acts with them.
If its the first one, then there is nothing homosexual at all.
It can only be taken in the one way, the second way.

That the men had every intention of committing homosexual acts seems quite clear. There also seems to be no indication they knew that the guests were angels. I do not understand your logic when you say it was not homosexual, but an attempt to ‘humiliate/degrade’ them.
In any case sexual acts outside marriage are wrong.
 
I just want everyone to know that I just came back from a weekend of discernment for the Dominican Friars. There I met another young man around my age who has struggled with homosexuality and once lived the life style. He has now been chased for three years and agreed with me that the life style is unhealthy, unnatural, and contrary to what God has planned for a man’s life. It was a blessing speak with another like minded individual who feels so strongly called to a religious vocation. I would just like to remind everyone that over and over again, those who come of the life style to serve God know that homosexuality simply does not work.
 
It can only be taken in the one way, the second way.

That the men had every intention of committing homosexual acts seems quite clear.
Actually what seems quite clear, if you go by the second option (which I think is the most probable option), is that the men were intending on commiting gang rape on the strangers.

For it to be the way that you are thinking, it would have to be consentual. I dont actually believe that the angels were going to consent to having sex with the men of the town.
There also seems to be no indication they knew that the guests were angels.
Who said that they knew?

They didnt know who the angels were, so the men of the town probably assumed that they were from a rival town.
I do not understand your logic when you say it was not homosexual, but an attempt to ‘humiliate/degrade’ them.
In any case sexual acts outside marriage are wrong.
What exactly dont you understand?

It was the practice at the time as a way of degrading/humiliating someone (its still practiced in some areas today). Its not actually a “sexual” thing and its certainly not consentual. Its a violation of someone which is basiclly rape.
 
what issue has nothing to do with homosexuality? are you homosexual? have you been? what is your point of reference if you are not gay or never have been?
I would say you are lacking strongly in support of your position, since you have no personal experience whatsoever.

You make a few accusational statements, yet show NO SPECIFIC examples from my post.

You are just argueing for the sake of argument, not anything else. get specific, let’s talk about homosexuality. not as it is referred to in scripture, that is pointless, let’s talk about the natural law, the law which basic science recognises. Science blows homosexuality out of the water.

please tell me where i have done what you claim. thanks Justin
Question Justinthe Martyr: Haven’t read all the postings, but are you saying homosexuals cannot have Christian values and morals?:confused:
 
What your statement above leaves me wondering is how you think it would be possible for me to make peace with Church teaching without doing so at the peril of giving “false expectations”?
Perhaps in the same manner St.Paul was able to “make peace” with remaining single without giving false expectations regarding others.
 
The lie that homosexualiy is just as natural as heterosexuality.
“Natural” is a word as intricate and polyvalent as “freedom” or “love”. It has so many connotation and means many different things to a given induvidual.

In some ways, homosexuality *is *natural. Many gay people, myself included, view our inclinations and attractions as very natural, in the sense that they come to us like heterosexual attraction comes to straight people. That’s if you use one defination of the multi-faceted word “natural”. In this case, “arising easily or spontaneously”. For many gay people, phsyical and emotional attraction towards other males or females just comes naturally to them.

There are other versions of the word “natural”, too, that certianly fit the idea that “homosexuality is natural”. If you take “natural” as existing in nature - that is, in plants and animals, then homosexuality is indeed “natural”. Homosexual behavior is found among many animals, and among certian species certianly plays a very prominent role in their societies. For example, there are certian types of dolphins - like the bottlenose - that form male-male and female-female partnerships. They play sexually with eachother, watch over the other while one sleeps, and go out in search of female dolphins. Male-male partnerships do not easily break, and even though they may temporarily partner with female dolphins, the original partnership nearly always comes back. Bottlenose dolphins aren’t the only animals that engage in homosexual behavior - the list of species that do is extremely long. But one thing is certian, in that particular defination of the word “natural” - homosexuality certianly is.

But, of course, there is the theological term “natural”. This is the idea that God has a certian plan for the genital organs and everything *but *sex resulting in ejaculation inside a vagina is considered outside that plan. Masturbation, oral sex (with a male orgasm inside the mouth of his partner), anal sex, or any other type of sex is considered gravely immoral because it is “unnatural”. Because it’s outside of God’s plan. I’m a religious studies student who has taken numerous classes on Catholic theology, and as someone who will graduate in less than two months, I can tell you that I have never heard the term natural used in anything else *but *sexual contexts. It is never the basis of morality for anything other than sex. That is disturbing, in my opinion. Anyway, in regards to the techincal, theological term “natural” - homosexuality is not.

But for people who don’t believe in God or a divine plan, or believe that God either doesn’t care about or accepts non-vaginal intercourse: that defination of “natural” is totally meaningless.

There is, of course, a middle ground: someplace between the theological, technical term natural and between the first and second defination of the word natural. That is a vague and uncertian defination, and it is difficult to put into words. Catholic.com has tried. I quote them now: “People have a basic, ethical intuition that certain behaviors are wrong because they are unnatural. We perceive intuitively that the natural sex partner of a human is another human, not an animal.” It’s something like a perception of what something *should *be that doesn’t neccessarily involve a divine being. In that case, it’s hard to put your finger on a solid defination - and it is therefore hard for me to put my finger on a solid “Yes” or “No” to the question of “Is homosexuality natural?” - when you use this defination.

But let me put it this way: I don’t have that basic, ethical intution that homosexuality is unnatural. I know countless other people who don’t have that intuition either. So when you use that defination, which is based on the perception of induviduals and their feelings about what is natural and what isn’t - I think you’re on very shaky ground. I predict that in a few years, maybe a few decades, but certianly before this century is over, this argument against homosexuality will fade away. The “ewww” gut reaction to homosexuality has diminished significantly in western societies over the past 30 or 40 years - and I think it will continue. Soon, that defination, for most people, will result in a “Yes” to the answer “Is homosexuality natural?”

And for me, it already is. I do have a basic, intuitive feeling about something’s morality or “naturalness” - but homosexuality certian feels “natural” to me, and countless others, heterosexuals included.
 
"
I’m a religious studies student who has taken numerous classes on Catholic theology, and as someone who will graduate in less than two months, I can tell you that I have never heard the term natural used in anything else *but *sexual contexts. It is never the basis of morality for anything other than sex. That is disturbing, in my opinion. Anyway, in regards to the techincal, theological term “natural” - homosexuality is not.
:rotfl:

Ask for your money back, kemosabe: if your course on Catholic theology never mentioned “natural law morality” outside a sexual context, you got screwed over, big time.
 
-]/-]🤷
:rotfl:

Ask for your money back, kemosabe: if your course on Catholic theology never mentioned “natural law morality” outside a sexual context, you got screwed over, big time.
I’m sorry, what are your credentials on theology again?

Edit: I might mention that in terms of modern theology, “natural theology” is never mentioned outside of sexual contexts. Sure, Aquinas talked about it, and other anchient philosophers/theologians, but the relevance in today’s world (in the *real world *today) is virtually nonexistant.
 
Scholastic theology is as valid as “modern” theology. Any theological course that neglects the Church’s theology prior to Vatican II must be short-changing its students. It doesn’t take a first-rate theologian to know that.

In any case, there is a lamentable lack of development about natural law in the Church in modern times. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the American universities, natural law isn’t given its worth and has led Exalt to form his stated opinion.

But, correct me if I’m wrong, natural law, understood in the scholastic tradition, has nothing to do with gut feeling or subjective perceptions, which certainly would be molded by cultural and historical experiences. As a Catholic, I put my faith in the voice of Christ speaking through the teaching authority of the Church than on my own perceptions of what is good and what is evil.
 
“Natural” is a word as intricate and polyvalent as “freedom” or “love”. It has so many connotation and means many different things to a given induvidual.

In some ways, homosexuality *is *natural. Many gay people, myself included, view our inclinations and attractions as very natural, in the sense that they come to us like heterosexual attraction comes to straight people. That’s if you use one defination of the multi-faceted word “natural”. In this case, “arising easily or spontaneously”. For many gay people, phsyical and emotional attraction towards other males or females just comes naturally to them.

There are other versions of the word “natural”, too, that certianly fit the idea that “homosexuality is natural”. If you take “natural” as existing in nature - that is, in plants and animals, then homosexuality is indeed “natural”. Homosexual behavior is found among many animals, and among certian species certianly plays a very prominent role in their societies. For example, there are certian types of dolphins - like the bottlenose - that form male-male and female-female partnerships. They play sexually with eachother, watch over the other while one sleeps, and go out in search of female dolphins. Male-male partnerships do not easily break, and even though they may temporarily partner with female dolphins, the original partnership nearly always comes back. Bottlenose dolphins aren’t the only animals that engage in homosexual behavior - the list of species that do is extremely long. But one thing is certian, in that particular defination of the word “natural” - homosexuality certianly is.

But, of course, there is the theological term “natural”. This is the idea that God has a certian plan for the genital organs and everything *but *sex resulting in ejaculation inside a vagina is considered outside that plan. Masturbation, oral sex (with a male orgasm inside the mouth of his partner), anal sex, or any other type of sex is considered gravely immoral because it is “unnatural”. Because it’s outside of God’s plan. I’m a religious studies student who has taken numerous classes on Catholic theology, and as someone who will graduate in less than two months, I can tell you that I have never heard the term natural used in anything else *but *sexual contexts. It is never the basis of morality for anything other than sex. That is disturbing, in my opinion. Anyway, in regards to the techincal, theological term “natural” - homosexuality is not.

But for people who don’t believe in God or a divine plan, or believe that God either doesn’t care about or accepts non-vaginal intercourse: that defination of “natural” is totally meaningless.

There is, of course, a middle ground: someplace between the theological, technical term natural and between the first and second defination of the word natural. That is a vague and uncertian defination, and it is difficult to put into words. Catholic.com has tried. I quote them now: “People have a basic, ethical intuition that certain behaviors are wrong because they are unnatural. We perceive intuitively that the natural sex partner of a human is another human, not an animal.” It’s something like a perception of what something *should *be that doesn’t neccessarily involve a divine being. In that case, it’s hard to put your finger on a solid defination - and it is therefore hard for me to put my finger on a solid “Yes” or “No” to the question of “Is homosexuality natural?” - when you use this defination.

But let me put it this way: I don’t have that basic, ethical intution that homosexuality is unnatural. I know countless other people who don’t have that intuition either. So when you use that defination, which is based on the perception of induviduals and their feelings about what is natural and what isn’t - I think you’re on very shaky ground. I predict that in a few years, maybe a few decades, but certianly before this century is over, this argument against homosexuality will fade away. The “ewww” gut reaction to homosexuality has diminished significantly in western societies over the past 30 or 40 years - and I think it will continue. Soon, that defination, for most people, will result in a “Yes” to the answer “Is homosexuality natural?”

And for me, it already is. I do have a basic, intuitive feeling about something’s morality or “naturalness” - but homosexuality certian feels “natural” to me, and countless others, heterosexuals included.
Goodness gracious. You are talking to some one who IS gay so I know all about the ridiculous arguments that we can use to justify it. For example appealing to animal behavior as “natural”. This is absurd. Just because the animals do it does not mean that we should. Animals have sex in the front lawn and poop on the floor. Does that mean we should do it to? NO!!! By natural I mean that which is proper to the human person. We can see by observation that homosexuality is not proper to the human person by observing the debauchery and decadence that it creates in the homosexual population, a disorder on a scale that far surpasses that of the heterosexual community.
 
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