So you don’t see a problem with signing a contract with a morals clause and then turning around and knowingly breaking this contract. Then when she is fired because of the breach of contract she sues.Yea, you know me, I am very much against the acts of homosexuality and same sex marriage.
I don’t know of anyone who isn’t guilty of a sexual sin, it’s whether they are teaching a sin as something other than a sin.
Could a sinners lifestyle have negative effects on a student? arn’t we all sinners?
I judge it in the case of “hate the sin, love the sinner.”
I would hardly fire a homosexual from employment who lived a homosexual lifestyle, I wouldn’t agree with it nor would I support it and if they tried to envolve such a lifestyle in the workplace than I would fire them.
However if the work lifestyle and the personal lifestyle are separate, than I don’t see a problem.
Thank you for reading
Josh
Mayb he did (live a chaste life) certainly would be the proper way for a devout catholic to live whether he is straight or has SSA. I imagine if the Diocese learned otherwise there would be an issue there as well.About twenty years after the fact, I learned that the most popular 8th grade teacher at my Catholic elementary school was gay. Like many others, I’m sure, I was incapable of making such a determination as an 8th grade student. Knowing the truth now, it doesn’t bother me. He was a phenomenal teacher, well loved and respected by students and faculty alike. His effect on my life was nothing but 100% positive. He was such a devout Catholic that, if I had to guess, I’d say he very likely maintained a chaste lifestyle. God bless his soul.
What about other sinners? are all sinners not allowed to teach at Catholic Schools? because arn’t we all considered sinners?
What does her lifestyle have to do with teaching things such as mathematics or physics?
If she was teaching the students something contrary to Catholic teaching or something wrong, for example, the sexual acts of homosexuality being anything other than morally wrong and sinful, than I would completely agree and understand with whats happened, but as it is, they have fired her for being a sinner or living a sinful lifestyle, which I don’t understand, because arn’t we all sinners?
Could you please provide me with a link to the reasons you listed, as I cannot find any other post from you on this thread, thank you.
Thank you for reading
Josh
Protestants can, and do, teach in Catholic schools. Lots of them. But when they sign the contract they agree to adhere to what the Catholic Church teaches. They likely won’t be asked, nor would they want, to teach catechism but they will follow the Catholic line, per the contract.What about protestants? are only Catholics able to work in a Catholic school?
Again, if they lie about their faith, then they can be fired. If they intend to “protest” in the school, they can be fired.Because protestants are in protest to the teachings of the Catholic Church, so wouldn’t they be living contrary to Catholic teaching?
As already stated, they do. As long as they don’t intentionally express anything contrary to Catholic teaching, then no problem. In fact, it’s been my experience that non-catholics are encouraged and welcomes to Catholic schools: teachers and kids.Protestants Scientologists Athiests Muslims Buddhists
Are any of these unable to work in a Catholic school and if so why?
No one is oppressing anyone. She can teach anywhere other than a Catholic school. She knew the deal when she signed on. I can’t believe many others at the school didn’t know it (that she had a partner) through the years. But when it becomes “public”, it puts they church and school in a tough spot if it wants a consistent message.Like I said before, I think we should be opposing sin, but I also think we shouldn’t be oppressing sinners and I think this was more oppressing the sinner rather than opposing the sin.
Me neither. It’s also against the law, I think.I wouldn’t fire a homosexual from employment who lived a homosexual lifestyle,
Her lifestyle, now outted, kind of does that, imo.If she was teaching anything other than the acts of homosexuality being acts of grave depravites, than I would completely agree with firing her.
I don’t entirely disagree with you, but the fact is – even outside the church – that teachers, police, politicians, etc. are held to a higher public standard. Just the way it is.I definatly see the need to make sure that the sexual acts of homsoexuality are not advocated in any way, but couldn’t this have been done just by talking to her about keeping her personal life and work life separate, by making sure she obeys and teaches the church’s teachings while ever at work? and setting an example which is that of the churchs teachings while ever at work?
I think you miss udnerstood me.So you don’t see a problem with signing a contract with a morals clause and then turning around and knowingly breaking this contract. Then when she is fired because of the breach of contract she sues.
YOu don’t have a problem with this, really???
My point exactly. Thank you LtTony.Protestants can, and do, teach in Catholic schools. Lots of them. But when they sign the contract they agree to adhere to what the Catholic Church teaches. They likely won’t be asked, nor would they want, to teach catechism but they will follow the Catholic line, per the contract.
True, did she lie about being in a homosexual relationship? or was she never asked and it didn’t come up until it was in an obituary.Again, if they lie about their faith, then they can be fired. If they intend to “protest” in the school, they can be fired.
Again my point exactly, did she express anything contrary to catholic teaching? and in saying that I mean like a protestant expressing something contrary to catholic teaching other than they are protestant.As already stated, they do. As long as they don’t intentionally express anything contrary to Catholic teaching, then no problem. In fact, it’s been my experience that non-catholics are encouraged and welcomes to Catholic schools: teachers and kids.
The part I selected in bold shows that she wasn’t advocating her lifestyle and when you say “when it becomes “public” it puts the church in a tough spot,” but what about when a teacher is protestant and it is “public” knowledge?No one is oppressing anyone. She can teach anywhere other than a Catholic school. She knew the deal when she signed on. I can’t believe many others at the school didn’t know it (that she had a partner) through the years. But when it becomes “public”, it puts the church and school in a tough spot if it wants a consistent message.
Isn’t this what has happened with this teacher?Me neither. It’s also against the law, I think.
It was in an obituary, that would be like another teacher having his religion stated as ‘protestant’ on something.Her lifestyle, now outted, kind of does that, imo.
True, I think it could have been done better by both sides though, I don’t think she needed to be fired and I think she is wrong in trying to sue them.I don’t entirely disagree with you, but the fact is – even outside the church – that teachers, police, politicians, etc. are held to a higher public standard. Just the way it is.
Living in manifest public sin is a scandal regardless of one’s faith. The fact of the matter is she created scandal. Living in such a way is not compartmentalized as the post modern mind claims. Call it the Bill Clinton doctrine where one can hold all types of immoral positions, commit public sins, and then claim one’s job has no relationship to one’s personal morality. That is not a Catholic position.I think you miss udnerstood me.
I said, I think the school didn’t make the best decision in firing her, but I definatly think that she is wrong in trying to sue the school.
My point exactly. Thank you LtTony.
This situation should be treated no differently I think. She should adhere to what the Catholic Church teaches while ever at work. She likely won’t be asked, nor would she want to teach the sexual acts of homosexuality as acts of grave depravities, but she must follow the Catholic line, per the contract while ever at work.
Why would this situation be different to any other that lives a life contrary to Catholic teachings? which would be exactly the same as a protestant working in a Catholic School.
Like I said, If they were teaching something contrary to Catholic teachings, than I would absolutly agree with firing them.
True, did she lie about being in a homosexual relationship? or was she never asked and it didn’t come up until it was in an obituary.
Did she protest about the churchs stand on homosexuality? it was simply the mention of her relationship in an obituary, I wouldn’t really class that as protesting.
Again my point exactly, did she express anything contrary to catholic teaching? and in saying that I mean like a protestant expressing something contrary to catholic teaching other than they are protestant.
The part I selected in bold shows that she wasn’t advocating her lifestyle and when you say “when it becomes “public” it puts the church in a tough spot,” but what about when a teacher is protestant and it is “public” knowledge?
Isn’t this what has happened with this teacher?
It was in an obituary, that would be like another teacher having his religion stated as ‘protestant’ on something.
True, I think it could have been done better by both sides though, I don’t think she needed to be fired and I think she is wrong in trying to sue them.
I think this needs to be done the right way, did they fire her to make a statement about homosexuality? or did they fire her because they think it is whats best for the students?
Thank you for reading
Josh
What I am saying is that, if protestants are allowed to work in Catholic Schools, than how could that not be capable of creating scandal? I mean to be protestant means that they are in protest to the Catholic Church. I just think that this situation doesn’t require the need to be treated any differently.Living in manifest public sin is a scandal regardless of one’s faith. The fact of the matter is she created scandal. Living in such a way is not compartmentalized as the post modern mind claims. Call it the Bill Clinton doctrine where one can hold all types of immoral positions, commit public sins, and then claim one’s job has no relationship to one’s personal morality. That is not a Catholic position.
Being a protestant is not a Sin. Engaging in homosexual behavior is. Publicly acknowledging living in sin with no intention of stopping such actions is behavior that can not be tolerated by a Catholic institution.What I am saying is that, if protestants are allowed to work in Catholic Schools, than how could that not be capable of creating scandal? I mean to be protestant means that they are in protest to the Catholic Church. I just think that this situation doesn’t require the need to be treated any differently.
If it were me in such a postion, I would have replied to the parent who brought up the obituary something like this -
“She will adhere to what the Catholic Church teaches while ever at work. She likely won’t be asked, nor would she want to teach the sexual acts of homosexuality as acts of grave depravities, but she must follow the Catholic line, per the contract while ever at work. If you, I, or anyone else finds her breaching this, than I will remove her immediatly. Rest assured she may be living such a lifestyle, but it will not be advocated in any way under any circumstances while ever at work or on school grounds and while ever she follows this, she will not be removed.”
Thank you for reading
Josh
Being Protestant is not a sin.What I am saying is that, if protestants are allowed to work in Catholic Schools, than how could that not be capable of creating scandal?
Sorry, but that is not accurate.I mean to be protestant means that they are in protest to the Catholic Church. I just think that this situation doesn’t require the need to be treated any differently.
If it were me in such a postion, I would have replied to the parent who brought up the obituary something like this -
“She will adhere to what the Catholic Church teaches while ever at work. She likely won’t be asked, nor would she want to teach the sexual acts of homosexuality as acts of grave depravities, but she must follow the Catholic line, per the contract while ever at work. If you, I, or anyone else finds her breaching this, than I will remove her immediatly. Rest assured she may be living such a lifestyle, but it will not be advocated in any way under any circumstances while ever at work or on school grounds and while ever she follows this, she will not be removed.”
Nope, her public life contradicts the fundamental aspect of Church teaching and is a scandal. Also, such behavior effects all aspects of our life.Thank you for reading
Josh
Living a life of manifest sin is nothing to minimize and rationalize away. We have no idea of how this effected children all these years. What is so mystifying is that some Catholics can view such public defiance and duplicity as a “private” matter. I guess if you can get away with breaking your word then it is ok. Not really a Catholic example on any level, but hey it is all about secular emotions anyway, right?Again, as it went unknown (officially) for 19 years that she was a lesbian, it’s obvious this woman took efforts to keep her private life separate and private. Setting the death of her mother aside as an extreme circumstance, I think her ongoing efforts at maintaining her own privacy should be respected. It’s obvious that she respected her work space- a Catholic institution with corresponding values. Why can’t that respect be returned to her? It is beyond me how people here can cast all the circumstance aside and fixate on the details of this poor woman’s personal life which is no business of anyone else’s anyway.
Yes because those descriptors are all of the same moral import, right? Is this the “new” morality?When I have children, I plan to have them educated in Catholic schools. I would want them taught by the most qualified individuals in their respective fields. Why would I care if my child’s science teacher is a Muslim, her math teacher is a Republican, or her gym teacher is a lesbian?
Ah yes, the usual non Catholic argument. If one’s faith is strong then anything goes. Nice, not exactly biblical but hey why bother with theology and truth when pop culture is our teacher.One of my English teachers (at a public school) was an alcoholic- which we never found out until she retired and died of poor health, but she was an excellent teacher nonetheless. My faith is not so weak and my convictions are not so fragile that they cannot co-exist in the world with others of differing views and lifestyles- even in the context of a Catholic institution, particularly when the subject matter has no bearing on the personal lifestyles or opinions of teachers (not that I would want them sharing those things with students regardless of what they believe).
Yes, and those terms like inclusiveness I am sure you mean to define them authentically and not as our culture does? I mean being inclusive means accepting any moral deviations as good, right?It further does a disservice to the children, who are hopefully learning the values of civility, empathy, and inclusiveness from people other than their school administrators. Because these are things that children will have to learn- not only that cultures, beliefs, and lifestyles different than their own exist at all, but that these difference must be respected in the public sphere
That must be from a Catholic moral theology textbook, right? It sounds like popular culture and relativism though.I guess for some people it isn’t enough to mind their own spirituality, sins, and beliefs. They can’t be happy until everyone else around them lives the same way they do or can at least be made to feel miserable for their differences.
It seems to me that by reading this post you don’t agree with the Catholic Church’s position on gay marriage and presume to know more than the Bishop who has forgotten more than what you will ever know about moral theology.Again, as it went unknown (officially) for 19 years that she was a lesbian, it’s obvious this woman took efforts to keep her private life separate and private. Setting the death of her mother aside as an extreme circumstance, I think her ongoing efforts at maintaining her own privacy should be respected. It’s obvious that she respected her work space- a Catholic institution with corresponding values. Why can’t that respect be returned to her? It is beyond me how people here can cast all the circumstance aside and fixate on the details of this poor woman’s personal life which is no business of anyone else’s anyway.
When I have children, I plan to have them educated in Catholic schools. I would want them taught by the most qualified individuals in their respective fields. Why would I care if my child’s science teacher is a Muslim, her math teacher is a Republican, or her gym teacher is a lesbian? One of my English teachers (at a public school) was an alcoholic- which we never found out until she retired and died of poor health, but she was an excellent teacher nonetheless. My faith is not so weak and my convictions are not so fragile that they cannot co-exist in the world with others of differing views and lifestyles- even in the context of a Catholic institution, particularly when the subject matter has no bearing on the personal lifestyles or opinions of teachers (not that I would want them sharing those things with students regardless of what they believe).
It further does a disservice to the children, who are hopefully learning the values of civility, empathy, and inclusiveness from people other than their school administrators. Because these are things that children will have to learn- not only that cultures, beliefs, and lifestyles different than their own exist at all, but that these difference must be respected in the public sphere.
I guess for some people it isn’t enough to mind their own spirituality, sins, and beliefs. They can’t be happy until everyone else around them lives the same way they do or can at least be made to feel miserable for their differences.
So you have just accused the Bishop of being a self righteous bigot. And then you accused the Vatican of being sex police.Obviously you don’t have much respect for your Church or its leadership.Not every life event has to be an issue of finding a moral high ground. For me, this is just about administrative discretion and sensible policies- not altering Church teaching. Ironically, acting like sane, compassionate people in these situations would go a long way to help non-Catholics find more respect for the Church’s positions. Because the Church can state that it is a respector of all humans and believes they should be treated with dignity , but when people go into self-righteous hysterics over the private lives of others, the moral outrage comes of as simple bigotry, not principle. That’s not ever going to change, and that’s why this conflict will inevitably go nowhere for the Vatican sex police and their cheerleaders.
Ah, I see. So anything goes when it is “private” even when it is gravely wrong and one signs a contract and breaks one’s word. The sensible policy is to honor your contract. Perhaps that is not considered respectful anymore?Not every life event has to be an issue of finding a moral high ground. For me, this is just about administrative discretion and sensible policies- not altering Church teaching. Ironically, acting like sane, compassionate people in these situations would go a long way to help non-Catholics find more respect for the Church’s positions. Because the Church can state that it is a respector of all humans and believes they should be treated with dignity , but when people go into self-righteous hysterics over the private lives of others, the moral outrage comes of as simple bigotry, not principle. That’s not ever going to change, and that’s why this conflict will inevitably go nowhere for the Vatican sex police and their cheerleaders.
Apparently bigotry now means not supporting homosexual deviance.So you have just accused the Bishop of being a self righteous bigot. And then you accused the Vatican of being sex police.Obviously you don’t have much respect for your Church or its leadership.
The thing of it is, though (and the Church documents on Catholic Schools are quite clear on this point), Catholic education is about more than simply passing on facts in the various disciplines with “Catholic religion” as simply one of the required classes. Every aspect of the education must be thoroughly Catholic and imbued with the Catholic mission. A school’s catholicity is not mere window dressing nor is it to be compartmentalized.Again, as it went unknown (officially) for 19 years that she was a lesbian, it’s obvious this woman took efforts to keep her private life separate and private. Setting the death of her mother aside as an extreme circumstance, I think her ongoing efforts at maintaining her own privacy should be respected. It’s obvious that she respected her work space- a Catholic institution with corresponding values. Why can’t that respect be returned to her? It is beyond me how people here can cast all the circumstance aside and fixate on the details of this poor woman’s personal life which is no business of anyone else’s anyway.
When I have children, I plan to have them educated in Catholic schools. I would want them taught by the most qualified individuals in their respective fields. Why would I care if my child’s science teacher is a Muslim, her math teacher is a Republican, or her gym teacher is a lesbian? One of my English teachers (at a public school) was an alcoholic- which we never found out until she retired and died of poor health, but she was an excellent teacher nonetheless. My faith is not so weak and my convictions are not so fragile that they cannot co-exist in the world with others of differing views and lifestyles- even in the context of a Catholic institution, particularly when the subject matter has no bearing on the personal lifestyles or opinions of teachers (not that I would want them sharing those things with students regardless of what they believe).
It further does a disservice to the children, who are hopefully learning the values of civility, empathy, and inclusiveness from people other than their school administrators. Because these are things that children will have to learn- not only that cultures, beliefs, and lifestyles different than their own exist at all, but that these difference must be respected in the public sphere.
I guess for some people it isn’t enough to mind their own spirituality, sins, and beliefs. They can’t be happy until everyone else around them lives the same way they do or can at least be made to feel miserable for their differences.
These dedicated members of the Central Ohio Association of Catholic Educators spent many agonizing hours reviewing the facts of the Carla Hale case,” COACE President Kathleen Mahoney told The Columbus Dispatch Tuesday. “It was their decision that the agreement had been violated and that there was not a case to bring to arbitration.”