Homosexual wedding

[One_point]

You miss the point entirely. Until homosexuality came “out of the closet” it was not the mainstream focus of the church for centuries and until recent times.

You cannot make up your own history. Would you like quotations from the early church fathers and throughout the church’s history that homosexual acts have always been condemned as grave sin? homosexuality, like prostitution, and adultery and bestiality, have always been part of human society and have always been condemned by judaism and christianity. That’s 4000 years of consinstent condemnation. Where do you get the idea that they were not condemned in ancient israel or christianity?

 

[One_point]

I am not calling christianity evil…I am calling those that hide behind Catholicism or Christianity evil when they do not consider the individual, family or situation but instead make blanket, black and white declarations of what they perceive to be God’s will or what they interpret to be the Church’s teaching. Everyone is in need of God’s grace, everyone. To practice non-acceptance of the gay person and withhold Love is in no way loving them or those that care for them. From the posts here it would appear that some would prefer to fight to save a murderer from the death penalty then show up in love for a son or daughter, brother or sister, that is choosing a same sex marriage. As Jesus says…we “strain out gnats and swallow camels!”

Love requires relationship and participation. The OP and others here would prefer non-participation and separation from the wedding event (the very definition of Sin) as a way of telling someone they are loved or worse yet sending a message of judgement.

You are calling christianity evil because you claim that rejecting homosexual unions as sinful is evil, yet that is exactly what christianity does. The catholic church teaches that these unions are ALWAYS and everwhere sinful. To you this is evil. So catholicism is evil. You cant have it both ways, claim that rejecting homosexual unions as grave sin is evil and then say that the religions that teach this are not evil. that’s a silly little game, not a serious debate.

Telling homosexual persons that they are ok in their sins is not loving or accepting them. it is hating the person and loving their sin. You will never convince us to embrace evil disguised as love.

We will always love the homosexual sinner and the adulterous sinner and the murderous sinner. And we will always hate their sins. You can keep loving the sin and obeying the pagan culture and telling yourself that its people you love if you want, but you wil be wrong.

What you’re doing is no different than encouraging a sociopath to embrace his predatory instinct and take awful advantage of people, even killing them, simply because “he was born that way” and did not choose to have a selfish predatory inclination.

We are all born with inclinations to do evil and we are called to resist them, including the inclination to have sex with members of our own gender (or with little children, or animals or people of the opposite sex who we are not married to). We are born with inclination to sin but we are also born with free will and God has given us grace to resist evil. He has not told us to call sin good like you are trying to do here. Sin is sin is sin. And until you can create your own creation and give it your own design, you cannot baptize sin into good in the world that God has already created with a certain design. You will never turn the evil of homosexual unions in this reality, into true love or marriage.

You are busy trying to teach us to say that homosexual persons do not have the same obligation we all have of resisting the sins of lust or other sins that we find ourselves inclined to commit without choosing them. You are preaching a FALSE religion, modern paganism that teaches people to embrace the FLESH that Jesus said to reject. I urge you to become a christian and reject paganism. It is a lie and you cannot serve two masters at once so I urge you to choose Jesus and reject evil and slavery to the devil through the lust of the flesh.

Love does not require us to celebrate sin by “participation”. That is the sin of scandal. You cannot commit such a serious sin in the name of love, if its love then its not love of God but people-pleasing and love of flesh. TRUE love flows from loving God above all.

 

[tskrobacz]

You are calling christianity evil because you claim that rejecting homosexual unions as sinful is evil, yet that is exactly what christianity does. The catholic church teaches that these unions are ALWAYS and everwhere sinful. To you this is evil. So catholicism is evil. You cant have it both ways, claim that rejecting homosexual unions as grave sin is evil and then say that the religions that teach this are not evil. that’s a silly little game, not a serious debate.

Telling homosexual persons that they are ok in their sins is not loving or accepting them. it is hating the person and loving their sin. You will never convince us to embrace evil disguised as love.

We will always love the homosexual sinner and the adulterous sinner and the murderous sinner. And we will always hate their sins. You can keep loving the sin and obeying the pagan culture and telling yourself that its people you love if you want, but you wil be wrong.

What you’re doing is no different than encouraging a sociopath to embrace his predatory instinct and take awful advantage of people, even killing them, simply because “he was born that way” and did not choose to have a selfish predatory inclination.

We are all born with inclinations to do evil and we are called to resist them, including the inclination to have sex with members of our own gender (or with little children, or animals or people of the opposite sex who we are not married to). We are born with inclination to sin but we are also born with free will and God has given us grace to resist evil. He has not told us to call sin good like you are trying to do here. Sin is sin is sin. And until you can create your own creation and give it your own design, you cannot baptize sin into good in the world that God has already created with a certain design. You will never turn the evil of homosexual unions in this reality, into true love or marriage.

You are busy trying to teach us to say that homosexual persons do not have the same obligation we all have of resisting the sins of lust or other sins that we find ourselves inclined to commit without choosing them. You are preaching a FALSE religion, modern paganism that teaches people to embrace the FLESH that Jesus said to reject. I urge you to become a christian and reject paganism. It is a lie and you cannot serve two masters at once so I urge you to choose Jesus and reject evil and slavery to the devil through the lust of the flesh.

Love does not require us to celebrate sin by “participation”. That is the sin of scandal. You cannot commit such a serious sin in the name of love, if its love then its not love of God but people-pleasing and love of flesh. TRUE love flows from loving God above all.

Thank you for your pastoral response. Those of us that live with friends and family members that are torn by this issue seek support as we witness this issue destroy families, alienate friends and create great suffering. As witnessed by this forum so often the responses are born from a foundational morality that while well intended fails to rise to the level of advice for practical living in the society and world we find ourselves subjected to each day.

 

[bilop]

Thank you for your pastoral response. Those of us that live with friends and family members that are torn by this issue seek support as we witness this issue destroy families, alienate friends and create great suffering. As witnessed by this forum so often the responses are born from a foundational morality that while well intended fails to rise to the level of advice for practical living in the society and world we find ourselves subjected to each day.

The advice for practical living is to treat every person will respect and kindness, but do nothing to confirm them in their sins.

You can treat a homosexual person with respect without celebrating their lifestyle.

God Bless

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you for your pastoral response. Those of us that live with friends and family members that are torn by this issue seek support as we witness this issue destroy families, alienate friends and create great suffering. As witnessed by this forum so often the responses are born from a foundational morality that while well intended fails to rise to the level of advice for practical living in the society and world we find ourselves subjected to each day.

Yes it is sin and disorder that destroys families. Approving of more sin and disorder will destroy families and souls further…

What to do? Pray, love, do all that is good for peace and family, avoid approval and celebration of objectively gravely disordered ways of living which are entered into by some persons in the family, sacrifice, fast, do penance for them…love. Love that is always together with truth - never separated. Love without truth is contrary to love.

 

[Bookcat]

The advice for practical living is to treat every person will respect and kindness, but do nothing to confirm them in their sins.

You can treat a homosexual person with respect without celebrating their lifestyle.

God Bless

 

[Bookcat]

"Only in truth does charity shine forth, only in truth can charity be authentically lived.

Without truth, charity degenerates into sentimentality."

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Caritas in Veritate)

 

[tskrobacz]

The advice for practical living is to treat every person will respect and kindness, but do nothing to confirm them in their sins.

You can treat a homosexual person with respect without celebrating their lifestyle.

God Bless

Several of our gay friends have been in long term (some 30+ years) committed relationships with the same partner. They have not been able to get access to health care benefits, visitation rights etc until recent laws have permitted their legal marriage. Other friends (a woman in particular) has been disowned by her Catholic family due to their disapproval of her lifestyle - she is currently in a long term relationship and has conceived (artificially) and delivered twins that will now grow up without access to their grandparents and 2 of her 3 siblings who have not accepted her lifestyle under the guise of church teaching. Still other friends have been divorced after 19 years and the woman has since been in a long term relationship with another woman. My nephew struggles with his sexual identity and is frequently at gay pride events. We have a few young men that have entered our life through our children that are openly gay.

If any of our friends were to enter into a gay union we would attend the wedding and we would trust that God is using the circumstances of their life to call them into union with himself. By so doing we would also keep them engaged in our life (happily married for 30 years, heterosexual with 4 lovely adult children) and by so doing continue to plant the seeds of the blessings born from committed, loving relationships built on faith, family and friends.

Is this respect in your view?

 

[Bookcat]

The advice for practical living is to treat every person will respect and kindness, but do nothing to confirm them in their sins.

You can treat a homosexual person with respect without celebrating their lifestyle.

God Bless

Love the person – but not the sinful way of living.

 

[Bookcat]

"Only in truth does charity shine forth, only in truth can charity be authentically lived.

Without truth, charity degenerates into sentimentality."

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Caritas in Veritate)

If my friend or family member embarks on a way of living that is contrary to “true life” that is objectively gravely disordered --I am not to approve it or celebrate it --for that would be contrary to truth and thus contrary to authentic love for the person.

I will love them–in ways that are according to truth - as a disciple of Jesus - who did not celebrate sin but loved those caught up in ways of living that were gravely disordered -calling them to true life in him.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Several of our gay friends have been in long term (some 30+ years) committed relationships with the same partner. They have not been able to get access to health care benefits, visitation rights etc until recent laws have permitted their legal marriage. Other friends (a woman in particular) has been disowned by her Catholic family due to their disapproval of her lifestyle - she is currently in a long term relationship and has conceived (artificially) and delivered twins that will now grow up without access to their grandparents and 2 of her 3 siblings who have not accepted her lifestyle under the guise of church teaching. Still other friends have been divorced after 19 years and the woman has since been in a long term relationship with another woman. My nephew struggles with his sexual identity and is frequently at gay pride events. We have a few young men that have entered our life through our children that are openly gay.

If any of our friends were to enter into a gay union we would attend the wedding and we would trust that God is using the circumstances of their life to call them into union with himself. By so doing we would also keep them engaged in our life (happily married for 30 years, heterosexual with 4 lovely adult children) and by so doing continue to plant the seeds of the blessings born from committed, loving relationships built on faith, family and friends.

Is this respect in your view?

Most of us know gay people. Most of us see the hurt it causes families. Most of us love all involved. I read what you just wrote and all I see is a HUGE mess and a lot of hurt and a lot of selfish behavior. Respect, no matter what you think, is not what you describe, but rather confirmation in sin. Which can only lead to worse pain than you are witnessing. You are not seeing the reality. All this stuff about medical rights etc is only designed to create this false idea that they are discriminated against.
The health care argument for marriage is moot right now. As is custody issues. Thier choices made that the reality. You cannot hit your hand with a hammer and then expect others to be mad at the hammer.

Some of what you describe is not respect. But you have no right to judge how others are offended by this. Gee whiz! If you are not offended by sodomy and feel sympathy to that, how can you not feel respect and sympathy to those who are hurt by it!!!

You would be wrong to go to a wedding. Either you have a strong faith and really do know that but are too weak to act on a principle, or you are weak in knowledge of the faith. Either way, you may think you are on the enlightened high road, but you really are not.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

As witnessed by this forum so often the responses are born from a foundational morality that while well intended fails to rise to the level of advice for practical living in the society and world we find ourselves subjected to each day.

As witnessed by this forum?

Are you saying that foundational morality (founded in Christ) is not practical for today’s world? That we should compromise Holy things for the convenience of not being viewed as a bigot?

 

[bilop]

Several of our gay friends have been in long term (some 30+ years) committed relationships with the same partner. They have not been able to get access to health care benefits, visitation rights etc until recent laws have permitted their legal marriage. Other friends (a woman in particular) has been disowned by her Catholic family due to their disapproval of her lifestyle - she is currently in a long term relationship and has conceived (artificially) and delivered twins that will now grow up without access to their grandparents and 2 of her 3 siblings who have not accepted her lifestyle under the guise of church teaching. Still other friends have been divorced after 19 years and the woman has since been in a long term relationship with another woman. My nephew struggles with his sexual identity and is frequently at gay pride events. We have a few young men that have entered our life through our children that are openly gay.

If any of our friends were to enter into a gay union we would attend the wedding and we would trust that God is using the circumstances of their life to call them into union with himself. By so doing we would also keep them engaged in our life (happily married for 30 years, heterosexual with 4 lovely adult children) and by so doing continue to plant the seeds of the blessings born from committed, loving relationships built on faith, family and friends.

Is this respect in your view?

Being engaged with you does no good if they think you approve of their lifestyles. The point of remaining engaged should be to lead them back to the truth of Christ.

For example. If I had a gay child or sibling, I would stay in touch with them, I would have them over for dinner and holidays, I would attend graduations, school events, etc.

I would not have any romantic partners in my house or invite them to events. I would not attend events hosted by them as a couple. I would not attend any event celebrating their relationship.

And it would be the exact same thing for a heterosexual relative living in an adulterous relationship.

God Bless

 

[tskrobacz]

Most of us know gay people. Most of us see the hurt it causes families. Most of us love all involved. I read what you just wrote and all I see is a HUGE mess and a lot of hurt and a lot of selfish behavior. Respect, no matter what you think, is not what you describe, but rather confirmation in sin. Which can only lead to worse pain than you are witnessing. You are not seeing the reality. All this stuff about medical rights etc is only designed to create this false idea that they are discriminated against.
The health care argument for marriage is moot right now. As is custody issues. Thier choices made that the reality. You cannot hit your hand with a hammer and then expect others to be mad at the hammer.

Some of what you describe is not respect. But you have no right to judge how others are offended by this. Gee whiz! If you are not offended by sodomy and feel sympathy to that, how can you not feel respect and sympathy to those who are hurt by it!!!

You would be wrong to go to a wedding. Either you have a strong faith and really do know that but are too weak to act on a principle, or you are weak in knowledge of the faith. Either way, you may think you are on the enlightened high road, but you really are not.

Thank you but personal attacks on me do nothing to help respond to the realities that so many face on this issue.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thank you but personal attacks on me do nothing to help respond to the realities that so many face on this issue.

I’m sorry if that offended you. I really do not see another option. But I am open to other ideas. I will gladly move on from that point anyway because it is peripheral. Pleas make sure you do the same when accusing those on here of being “judgemental” or lacking love because we stand with Christ and the Church on this.

Now, would you like to address any of the many points made to your argument? Would you like to answer who you quoted? Who is making judgemental statements against gays? Would you like to demonstrate how a Catholic and follower of Christ could attend a Gay wedding as a concession for feelings?

One of the things I do when talking to others about this issue is bring the harsh cold reality of what homosexuals do into the conversation. The media has done a smash bang job of convincing us that they are fashion forward, funny quipping, loveable harmless teddy bears. Now I am sure forum rules prohibit too much talk of the acts, but have you ever stopped to think about it?

When you really stop to think about it, you cannot even compare it to holiness.

This is why I do not buy all of this discrimination and rights nonsense.

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity.** Under no circumstances can they be approved.**

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.** They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.** Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

---

This is a forum for Catholic “answers” in moral theology…see the above for such.

 

[ahs]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity.** Under** no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.** They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.** Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

---

This is a forum for Catholic “answers” in moral theology…see the above for such.

In addition to this, there is also CCC 2480

2480 Every word or attitude is forbidden which by flattery, adulation, or complaisance encourages and confirms another in malicious acts and perverse conduct. Adulation is a grave fault if it makes one an accomplice in another’s vices or grave sins. Neither the desire to be of service nor friendship justifies duplicitous speech. Adulation is a venial sin when it only seeks to be agreeable, to avoid evil, to meet a need, or to obtain legitimate advantages.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Several of our gay friends have been in long term (some 30+ years) committed relationships with the same partner. They have not been able to get access to health care benefits, visitation rights etc until recent laws have permitted their legal marriage. Other friends (a woman in particular) has been disowned by her Catholic family due to their disapproval of her lifestyle - she is currently in a long term relationship and has conceived (artificially) and delivered twins that will now grow up without access to their grandparents and 2 of her 3 siblings who have not accepted her lifestyle under the guise of church teaching. Still other friends have been divorced after 19 years and the woman has since been in a long term relationship with another woman. My nephew struggles with his sexual identity and is frequently at gay pride events. We have a few young men that have entered our life through our children that are openly gay.

If any of our friends were to enter into a gay union we would attend the wedding and we would trust that God is using the circumstances of their life to call them into union with himself. By so doing we would also keep them engaged in our life (happily married for 30 years, heterosexual with 4 lovely adult children) and by so doing continue to plant the seeds of the blessings born from committed, loving relationships built on faith, family and friends.

Is this respect in your view?

I am sorry but that is cowardice. A sin I suffer from admittedly. We need to give people the Truth in Love or else we are burying our bushel

 

[tskrobacz]

I’m sorry if that offended you. I really do not see another option. But I am open to other ideas. I will gladly move on from that point anyway because it is peripheral. Pleas make sure you do the same when accusing those on here of being “judgemental” or lacking love because we stand with Christ and the Church on this.

Now, would you like to address any of the many points made to your argument? Would you like to answer who you quoted? Who is making judgemental statements against gays? Would you like to demonstrate how a Catholic and follower of Christ could attend a Gay wedding as a concession for feelings?

One of the things I do when talking to others about this issue is bring the harsh cold reality of what homosexuals do into the conversation. The media has done a smash bang job of convincing us that they are fashion forward, funny quipping, loveable harmless teddy bears. Now I am sure forum rules prohibit too much talk of the acts, but have you ever stopped to think about it?

When you really stop to think about it, you cannot even compare it to holiness.

This is why I do not buy all of this discrimination and rights nonsense.

Thank you and you are forgiven. Please also forgive me if I have offended anyone in this discussion. The ahha moment for me was the statement that we are ALL “intrinsically disordered”…this I believe to be true and resolves (for me) the problem with this language in the CCC. I do understand why the CCC is so direct on this topic however when applied only to one group it is difficult to accept without this broader contextual understanding. Thank you!

 

[bantor007]

So then what you are saying is that Catholics are not allowed to attend weddings of ANY baptized person unless it is performed in a Church by a priest! That probably excludes may interfaith marriages…

Who are we to be so judgemental! Don’t you understand that God’s love is infinite and his mercy is boundless. We are to spread love and joy as he did…not judgement and heartache. He ate and drank with sinners too!

Leave the judgement to God as he will judge us all!