Homosexuality 777 (Adv. class)

[tbmeg]

Asked, answered, and discussed dozens of time on this forum. Since you’re new, why don’t you do a search on this FAQ?

Okay,Thanks

 

[InSearchofGrace]

By “worked up”, I simply mean that the same people post to these threads on a regular basis (hardly a thread about homosexuality escapes YOUR attention, for example), and that emotional words are often used to describe homosexual behavior. Of course, most people here have the good sense to veil their bigotry in words like “disordered” and through arguments about Natural Law, but the fact is that less than 10% of people self-identify as homosexuals. With such a low incidence, we can extrapolate how little this affects any of you (especially the members of CAF) directly, and yet every time a thread has the word “homosexuality” in the title, you can be sure that it will go on for pages and pages, often until it gets so nasty that it is closed and deleted.

My point about the masturbation threads is just this: it’s something a majority of people have done at some point, so sympathy abounds here on CAF for those who just “can’t” quit. I would be shocked if someone having frequent gay sex and then lamenting about it later like the masturbators got anywhere near the same number of prayers and sympathy. More likely he would get a bunch of people telling him how disordered his behavior is, how vile and disgusting it is, etc.

People’s interest in this subject on CAF seems to be inversely proportionate to how this subject actually affects their lives. People post about it so they can pontificate on the vileness of it all and their particular pet theories about why it’s so wrong and disgusting. Others chime in in agreement in one big righteous … while one or two people actually have the sense to point out that maybe they should take the planks out of their own eyes before criticizing the mote in their neighbor’s.

Here’s a tip people: that television in your living room; that computer you are using to spew your anti-homosexual diatribes, those things are FAR more likely to endanger your child’s soul than the nice gay man down the street who lives with his mother. If you even stopped to think how much you would probably throw them out the window right now. But then, you would actually have to put pen to paper to articulate your stance on disordered sexual behaviors, and even then, who would read it?

Correcting offensive and highly uncharitable mischaracterizations in your post:

• Flinging the word bigotry is a crude debate ender. It is also inappropriate and unfair just because you do not agree with the arguments you read from postings by Catholic members of this forum. In this case and to be clear, faithful Catholics stand behind Church teaching that homosexuals should be afforded dignity and respect, separating the homosexual attraction which is not sinful from homosexual acts that are considered sinful. The action is disordered and against natural law. When Catholics use these arguments, they are not being bigots. For you to say they are veiling their bigotry by making said arguments is an erroneous and unfair conclusion to draw. You are making a judgment on their motivation.
• CAF members are not concerned about celibate homosexuals, like that man down the street who lives with his mother, or a gay uncle you might have who lived chastely. It might help you to note that when you are reading arguments to which you are in opposition: they are NOT directed personally to any homosexual person who may be related or close to you.
• For the most part, what concerns people at CAF including me is the social impact, not necessarily the effect on any individual’s current life, of pro-gay ‘marriage’ advocacy whose defenders almost always defend adoption of children by gay couples as well. Indoctrination of young children in schools in efforts to normalize homosexuality is already being done under the supposed anti-bullying program. Publicly citing a long held value and teaching on the wrongness of homosexual acts, as an expression of religious liberty protected by the Constitution, has nevertheless given rise to charges that such comprises hate speech. When the same plays out in forums like this, it is branded as bigotry as what you have done here. Yes, the discussion sometimes veers to the health risks of gay sex, which leads to a visceral reaction in some, understandable as it conjures not so pleasant images in mind.
• You compare the discussion that ensues in threads when a member brings up masturbation with a member who brings up homosexuality. Both are disorders that have to do with lust, fed by pornography in many situations and ubiquitous sex-themed pictures, articles and shows in various forms of media in this culture. You decry the difference in quality and quantity (inordinate, to use your description) of posts about masturbation and homosexuality. Not as a defense to masturbators, but they have not formed an actual alliance for political purposes to normalise what is not normal, and are not marching as homosexual activists are doing in their efforts to legalize gay ‘marriage’ in every state. Note that it is not my claim that every homosexual is a militant or an activist. It is also not my claim that a man is incapable of deep love and affection for another man, a woman for another woman.
• Please refrain from characterizing posters who agree and support Church teaching as … . This is a violation of a forum rule and I am calling you out for it. If you read across threads on the subject, there is generally an exchange between those who admonish to indeed remove the planks from their eyes first and those who raise the Christian duty of fraternal correction. When someone offers fraternal correction, the person is not claiming that he/she never falls in sin.
• Your post comes across as antagonistic and sounds exasperated, perhaps due to your inability to make your case. I’ll tell you something. CAF members are exasperated with wave after wave of postings by dissident Catholics undermining the teaching which to us contain reason, unity and coherence, as laid out by the Church. We did not invent what is written in the Scripture nor what has been passed by Tradition. We accept, happily and knowingly assent to the authority of the Magisterium of the Church that Christ left behind under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in apostolic succession since St. Peter, the very first Pope in year 32, to Pope Benedict XVI, the current and 266th pope elected by the college of cardinals in 2005!

 

[dsully]

Based on my understanding of Catholic teaching regarding homosexuality, there is actually a lot of compassion for people who identify themselves as homosexual. Unlike some Christians and secularists, the Catholic Church begins by affirming that those who struggle with homosexual desires and behaviors are created in the image of God, persons of incredible significance and worth to God. The Catholic Church goes out of its way to condemn hateful speech towards or hateful treatment of homosexuals on the basis of their dignity as men and women, even if their behavior is viewed as sinful by the Church. Furthermore, I think I remember reading that the Church acknowledges that all people have a tendency towards sexual brokenness, not just homosexuals. There is no discrimination on the part of God when it comes to sin and the need for grace. We are all welcomed into Christ’s church to receive the sacraments, including reconciliation, where we confess our sin and receive God’s saving grace.

Regarding same-sex marriage, the Church clearly has the right to define marriage as the union of a man and women in line with Scripture and Tradition when it comes to its own sacramental system. It would be an infringement of the State to claim that the Church had to remake its definition of marriage to be inclusive of same-sax couples. At the same time, members of the Church are free to be active politically, casting votes that will defend laws supporting the Church’s position. That is not overstepping boundaries: that is the nature of democracy in our Republic.

 

[LaSainte]

Correcting offensive and highly uncharitable mischaracterizations in your post:

• Flinging the word bigotry is a crude debate ender. It is also inappropriate and unfair just because you do not agree with the arguments you read from postings by Catholic members of this forum. In this case and to be clear, faithful Catholics stand behind Church teaching that homosexuals should be afforded dignity and respect, separating the homosexual attraction which is not sinful from homosexual acts that are considered sinful. The action is disordered and against natural law. When Catholics use these arguments, they are not being bigots. For you to say they are veiling their bigotry by making said arguments is an erroneous and unfair conclusion to draw. You are making a judgment on their motivation.
• CAF members are not concerned about celibate homosexuals, like that man down the street who lives with his mother, or a gay uncle you might have who lived chastely. It might help you to note that when you are reading arguments to which you are in opposition: they are NOT directed personally to any homosexual person who may be related or close to you.
• For the most part, what concerns people at CAF including me is the social impact, not necessarily the effect on any individual’s current life, of pro-gay ‘marriage’ advocacy whose defenders almost always defend adoption of children by gay couples as well. Indoctrination of young children in schools in efforts to normalize homosexuality is already being done under the supposed anti-bullying program. Publicly citing a long held value and teaching on the wrongness of homosexual acts, as an expression of religious liberty protected by the Constitution, has nevertheless given rise to charges that such comprises hate speech. When the same plays out in forums like this, it is branded as bigotry as what you have done here. Yes, the discussion sometimes veers to the health risks of gay sex, which leads to a visceral reaction in some, understandable as it conjures not so pleasant images in mind.
• You compare the discussion that ensues in threads when a member brings up masturbation with a member who brings up homosexuality. Both are disorders that have to do with lust, fed by pornography in many situations and ubiquitous sex-themed pictures, articles and shows in various forms of media in this culture. You decry the difference in quality and quantity (inordinate, to use your description) of posts about masturbation and homosexuality. Not as a defense to masturbators, but they have not formed an actual alliance for political purposes to normalise what is not normal, and are not marching as homosexual activists are doing in their efforts to legalize gay ‘marriage’ in every state. Note that it is not my claim that every homosexual is a militant or an activist. It is also not my claim that a man is incapable of deep love and affection for another man, a woman for another woman.
• Please refrain from characterizing posters who agree and support Church teaching as one … . This is a violation of a forum rule and I am calling you out for it. If you read across threads on the subject, there is generally an exchange between those who admonish to indeed remove the planks from their eyes first and those who raise the Christian duty of fraternal correction. When someone offers fraternal correction, the person is not claiming that he/she never falls in sin.
• Your post comes across as antagonistic and sounds exasperated, perhaps due to your inability to make your case. I’ll tell you something. CAF members are exasperated with wave after wave of postings by dissident Catholics undermining the teaching which to us contain reason, unity and coherence, as laid out by the Church. We did not invent what is written in the Scripture nor what has been passed by Tradition. We accept, happily and knowingly assent to the authority of the Magisterium of the Church that Christ left behind under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in apostolic succession since St. Peter, the very first Pope in year 32, to Pope Benedict XVI, the current and 266th pope elected by the college of cardinals in 2005!

For the record, I never said that I am against Church teaching on homosexuality. What I find curious, is why you all care about this particular subject so much.

I hate to break it to all of you, but masturbation is FAR more likely to be a HUGE factor in the lives of you, your spouses, your children, the neighbors, your Sunday school teachers, than homosexuality ever will. Why continue to decry homosexuality as if EVERYONE IN THE WORLD is not aware of Church teaching on the matter. It is well-known, and beating people about the head and face with it is only going to make them wonder why you NEED to keep reiterating something like this. What’s next? A thousand threads on how 1+1=2? WE KNOW.

And as far as the masturbators on this forum vs. Your average homosexual, the masturbators KNOW that what they are doing is wrong and choose to do it anyway. Most homosexuals don’t believe that there is anything intrinsically wrong with their behavior. Which is worse?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Based on my understanding of Catholic teaching regarding homosexuality, there is actually a lot of compassion for people who identify themselves as homosexual. Unlike some Christians and secularists, the Catholic Church begins by affirming that those who struggle with homosexual desires and behaviors are created in the image of God, persons of incredible significance and worth to God. The Catholic Church goes out of its way to condemn hateful speech towards or hateful treatment of homosexuals on the basis of their dignity as men and women, even if their behavior is viewed as sinful by the Church. Furthermore, I think I remember reading that the Church acknowledges that all people have a tendency towards sexual brokenness, not just homosexuals. There is no discrimination on the part of God when it comes to sin and the need for grace. We are all welcomed into Christ’s church to receive the sacraments, including reconciliation, where we confess our sin and receive God’s saving grace.

Regarding same-sex marriage, the Church clearly has the right to define marriage as the union of a man and women in line with Scripture and Tradition when it comes to its own sacramental system. It would be an infringement of the State to claim that the Church had to remake its definition of marriage to be inclusive of same-sax couples. At the same time, members of the Church are free to be active politically, casting votes that will defend laws supporting the Church’s position. That is not overstepping boundaries: that is the nature of democracy in our Republic.

Thank you, dully, and a warm welcome to you in joining CAF!

ISoG

 

[TheRealJuliane]

For the record, I never said that I am against Church teaching on homosexuality. What I find curious, is why you all care about this particular subject so much.

I hate to break it to all of you, but masturbation is FAR more likely to be a HUGE factor in the lives of you, your spouses, your children, the neighbors, your Sunday school teachers, than homosexuality ever will. Why continue to decry homosexuality as if EVERYONE IN THE WORLD is not aware of Church teaching on the matter. It is well-known, and beating people about the head and face with it is only going to make them wonder why you NEED to keep reiterating something like this. What’s next? A thousand threads on how 1+1=2? WE KNOW.

And as far as the masturbators on this forum vs. Your average homosexual, the masturbators KNOW that what they are doing is wrong and choose to do it anyway. Most homosexuals don’t believe that there is anything intrinsically wrong with their behavior. Which is worse?

You’re just not listening, are you.

 

[Dymphna82]

the masturbators KNOW that what they are doing is wrong and choose to do it anyway. Most homosexuals don’t believe that there is anything intrinsically wrong with their behavior. Which is worse?

Both are wrong. One is placing their addiction above God, the other is putting their personal/societal beliefs above God. Either way, they’re obeying themselves and not God.

Also, there are a lot of threads about it and I too am tired of it. I’ve even asked that all homosexuality threads be transferred to its own section or a section about sexuality/chastity, but don’t know if it will ever happen. The vast majority of people who start these threads are not people who understand Cathoicism, but people who want to understand, or those who don’t want to understand; only wishing to browbeat Catholics into supporting a disorder that the Church tells them not to.

 

[Elizabeth502]

What I find curious, is why you all care about this particular subject so much.

What I find curious is why you care so much about other people’s posting behavior, why you discuss this so often – not only in this thread but in many other threads you yourself open and contribute to – going off-message from the issue that is being discussed to what seems to be your Agenda Issue, which is to caricature, criticize, and perhaps even control, other posters.

Lots of us would prefer to discuss the issues, but you keep bringing it back to discussing the persons debating the issues, which violates forum rules. You seem very anxious about the right & privilege of other posters to post in accordance with CAF allowances.

For the record, the vast majority of posters who open threads about homosexuality are not those – whether passionately or dispassionately – who support Church teaching. Overwhelmingly, these threads are started by people who either question or billigerently oppose Church teaching on marriage and sexuality.

Further, recently you, not anyone else, opened a thread called “So sad about a gay teacher…” While it is now closed, you not only were responsible for starting the thread, but for being one of the heaviest contributors to it.

So who is “obsessed” again?

I wonder why you would open a thread about a topic which you prefer to accuse others of obsessing about.

 

[LaSainte]

What I find curious is why you care so much about other people’s posting behavior, why you discuss this so often – not only in this thread but in many other threads you yourself open and contribute to – going off-message from the issue that is being discussed to what seems to be your Agenda Issue, which is to caricature, criticize, and perhaps even control, other posters.

Lots of us would prefer to discuss the issues, but you keep bringing it back to discussing the persons debating the issues, which violates forum rules. You seem very anxious about the right & privilege of other posters to post in accordance with CAF allowances.

For the record, the vast majority of posters who open threads about homosexuality are not those – whether passionately or dispassionately – who support Church teaching. Overwhelmingly, these threads are started by people who either question or billigerently oppose Church teaching on marriage and sexuality.

Further, recently you, not anyone else, opened a thread called “So sad about a gay teacher…” While it is now closed, you not only were responsible for starting the thread, but for being one of the heaviest contributors to it.

So who is “obsessed” again?

I wonder why you would open a thread about a topic which you prefer to accuse others of obsessing about.

I opened that thread because it was a matter that affected me on a personal level. What I got instead of real answers were mostly questions about the veracity of my claims coupled with questions a bout how I could possibly know the motivation of the parents involved. Only a few people actually responded in a way that actually addressed my original concerns. I should have just asked the question as a hypothetical.

 

[LaSainte]

Both are wrong. One is placing their addiction above God, the other is putting their personal/societal beliefs above God. Either way, they’re obeying themselves and not God.

Also, there are a lot of threads about it and I too am tired of it. I’ve even asked that all homosexuality threads be transferred to its own section or a section about sexuality/chastity, but don’t know if it will ever happen. The vast majority of people who start these threads are not people who understand Cathoicism, but people who want to understand, or those who don’t want to understand; only wishing to browbeat Catholics into supporting a disorder that the Church tells them not to.

To be fair, many practicing homosexuals are strong believers in God and do not believe that he disapproves of their actions.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I opened that thread because it was a matter that affected me on a personal level. What I got instead of real answers were mostly questions about the veracity of my claims coupled with questions a bout how I could possibly know the motivation of the parents involved. Only a few people actually responded in a way that actually addressed my original concerns. I should have just asked the question as a hypothetical.

Actually, several of us gave you real answers; I was one such respondent. However, rather than stay focused on our answers, you chose instead to rant and rail about other posters, as well to rant, rail, and project about the parents in the subject at hand, despite your knowing no more about their motivations, nor having any greater insight into their possible response to other hypothetical situations, than you know about CAF posters’ motivations.

I agree you should have asked the question neutrally, as a hypothetical, which is what I suggested in one of my posts which you chose not to address. It has been consistently your choice, not the choices of others, to focus on exaggerated assumptions about the motivations of others, and to stay focused on challenging other posters to deny your assumptions, instead of discussing the moral and social justice issues in respective forums.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I opened that thread because it was a matter that affected me on a personal level. What I got instead of real answers were mostly questions about the veracity of my claims coupled with questions a bout how I could possibly know the motivation of the parents involved. Only a few people actually responded in a way that actually addressed my original concerns. I should have just asked the question as a hypothetical.

You have a penchant for hyperbole and drama.

I followed that thread you opened, was about to post, before the whole thread was shut down and removed. There was only one who raised the question on the veracity of your story about the awesome and fantastic male teacher in first grade of a public school, against whom a majority of parents exercised their veto. You claimed that he was discriminated for being gay / effeminate, victimised on the basis of rumor even as said teacher has related to some colleagues about living with his boyfriend.

And, as this part of your quote upthread reflects, you use drama for effect, conceivably to draw an emotional reaction.

**It is well-known, and beating people about the head and face **with it is only going to make them wonder why you NEED to keep reiterating something like this. What’s next? *A thousand threads on how 1+1=2? WE KNOW.

Seriously, don’t you have a better figure of speech to use? You should know that a good number of posters here who defend Church teaching on the issues we are discussing actually have close family members who are homosexuals. That includes me. We resent the implication of your posts that we are heartless and wish to hurt another human being.

If you wish to conduct a serious debate, you might consider using a logical instead of an emotional argumentation method.
,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

To be fair, many practicing homosexuals are strong believers in God and do not believe that he disapproves of their actions.

…and is this the heterodoxical angle that you wish to propagate in this Catholic forum?
,

 

[Gaber]

Correcting offensive and highly uncharitable mischaracterizations in your post:…(List)

In short, every word La Sainte said is accurate.

 

[Elizabeth502]

In short, every word La Sainte said is accurate.

except that her so-called “accuracy” is based on 100% empty accusation and conjecture.

 

[Gaber]

except that her so-called “accuracy” is based on 100% empty accusation and conjecture.

Yes, what other defense could you throw up?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Yes, what other defense could you throw up?

You mean against accusations which are untrue of me, and patently untrue about many other posters? The accusations based on mere guesswork on her part (and clearly yours)? You mean, the posts which violate forum rules by assigning imaginary motives to posters, declaring what posters supposedly “think” and how they “feel?” Those posts?

They’re inaccurate, no matter how often she and you repeat yourselves and declare that you have uniquely privileged, private, occult insight into the spiritual and emotional configurations of the hearts and minds of other CAF posters.

It’s not necessary to “defend” oneself against baseless character assassination and repeated hyperbole. But I’m sure plenty of CAF users have Reported these posts to the moderators for review.

Try to have a nice day, but perhaps that’s only possible if both of you stop assuming the worst about your fellow human beings.

 

[Dymphna82]

To be fair, many practicing homosexuals are strong believers in God and do not believe that he disapproves of their actions.

I recognize that is the case for some and am grateful that they continue their relationship with Christ, even if they are ignoring the facts. The Bible makes it clear how God feels about homosexuality. The Catechism also makes it very clear what the Church’s stance on homosexuality is. To deny that stance is to deny papal infallibility. Jesus gave us the Pope and the Church to protect and guide us. To say the Pope is wrong is to say Jesus was wrong.

There are quite a few people who believe the Church is outdated in its rules. That’s pride talking.

That’s certainly not to say I’m perfect. There are certain rules that I don’t personally agree with. However, I consider my disagreement with the Church my issue; my need to evolve, and not Rome’s.

 

[LaSainte]

I recognize that is the case for some and am grateful that they continue their relationship with Christ, even if they are ignoring the facts. The Bible makes it clear how God feels about homosexuality. The Catechism also makes it very clear what the Church’s stance on homosexuality is. To deny that stance is to deny papal infallibility. Jesus gave us the Pope and the Church to protect and guide us. To say the Pope is wrong is to say Jesus was wrong.

There are quite a few people who believe the Church is outdated in its rules. That’s pride talking.

That’s certainly not to say I’m perfect. There are certain rules that I don’t personally agree with. However, I consider my disagreement with the Church my issue; my need to evolve, and not Rome’s.

Yes, but many of these people are not, nor we’re they ever Catholic. They don’t necessarily come from a background where homosexuality is considered a sin. Their consciences are 100% clear.

Many people here treat the subject like it’s an issue of intentionally defying God, which is another thing entirely. A great number of people simply aren’t convinced that God disapproves of their actions. There is a vast difference.

 

[Gaber]

You mean against accusations which are untrue of me, and patently untrue about many other posters? The accusations based on mere guesswork on her part (and clearly yours)? You mean, the posts which violate forum rules by assigning imaginary motives to posters, declaring what posters supposedly “think” and how they “feel?” Those posts?

They’re inaccurate, no matter how often she and you repeat yourselves and declare that you have uniquely privileged, private, occult insight into the spiritual and emotional configurations of the hearts and minds of other CAF posters.

It’s not necessary to “defend” oneself against baseless character assassination and repeated hyperbole. But I’m sure plenty of CAF users have Reported these posts to the moderators for review.

Try to have a nice day, but perhaps that’s only possible if both of you stop assuming the worst about your fellow human beings.

Thank you, I was not talking about posters. I was talking about one post. It made an accurate assesment of what many posts on here look like to a reader not steeped in a certain brand of peity.

I don not, myself, see into or wish to see into anyone;s thinking process as a story line they tell themselves. But I do know that that is waht we do until we wake up: tell ourselves a stoyr about who we are and what we believe. And that is what belief means: living as if. And if you or anyoone take the trouble to look at that magnificient toool God gave you to think with, and discover whose driving, instead of letting it run on habits you mistakenly call thinking, you might discover something rather celestial about yourself. That is a huge compliment, not an insult or a criticism, so don’t makre it into something it isn’t.

Nothing I’ve based anything I myself have said is based on anything privileged or private o occult (???) in the sense that anyone else doesn’t have acces to it. Anyone has access to thier inner workings if they look. But most people look at their thought train as “reality,”:hop on, and go for the ride that takes them on. Most folks act as if they think that their thoughts and perceptions have a 1/1 correspondence to reality, and even accdept a desctiption of “reality” they themselves didn’t discover, but were given, and never question it. And if they do, they question it in the terms of the model they have accepted, not from outside it. So naturally ther is conflict, both within and with others.

And if your character that you animate did fall over and you got to look at it, you might think diferently about it thatn you do while you are wearing it as a costume. Some parts, of course, are very good. Others, you may not see so clearly because of proximity. That is why we have mirrors, even if we choose not to use them.

So I’m happy that you are fired up. It means you have energy you can use. How you do that is up to you. And like me, having had, actually a very wonderful day yesterday (! ) I hope you have one too. I don’t understand why you think I think the worst of everyone, as I do not. Each one is made in the image and likeness of God. What we cover that with, however, is a different story, a story we tell ourselves. That is what we might take a closer lookd at in the light of what is underneath. But first you have to look at what is doing the looking.

Thanks for taking your time to comment!