Homosexuality and Hope

[brb3]

I presume that you are heterosexual. That means you find members of the opposite gender sexually attractive.

Let me therefore ask you this incredibly simple question: Would you be able to find members of the same gender as yourself sexually attractive?

That’s not the crux question. Heterosexuals do …but, they are not thereby excused to commit adultery or rape. Those with SSA are not excused to perform sodomy or consenting sex outside of sacramental marriage, which doesn’t apply/exist for same sex persons…God authorizing only male-female covenant bonding.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Just in an attempt to get back to basics here…

Coptic, you titled this thread “Homosexuality and Hope.” Presumably you’re referencing the Catholic Medical Association’s document of the same name. From your post and from the text of the CMA document available, I didn’t get a clear vision of the hope referred to in the title of the post.

Moreover, the CMA document does not appear to make a real distinction between “homosexuality” and “SSA.” I know that you, however, make that distinction, or have at least attempted to do so.

I therefore have two areas of inquiry:

1–What, really, is being referred to when you use the term “homosexuality” in the title of this thread? Is it a pattern of sexual behavior, a pattern of attraction or both (and how will you subsequently distinguish between behavior and attraction in your ensuing remarks)?

2–What, precisely, is the vision of hope for homosexuals/homosexuality being advocated for here? What are the features of that vision that mark it as a vision of hope? How does a homosexual / person-who-experiences-same-sex-attraction best live into that vision?

Thanks.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Lochias]

Don’t worry mate. People like me don’t let people like him make us despair. We’ve heard it all before. There’s no place for me in the catholic church, since I’m an active bisexual woman, but there’s plenty of room for me in other churches that accept us as we are, just like Jesus does. After all, I didn’t choose to become a bisexual woman. It’s God’s will for me, and who’s going to tell God he’s wrong. I’m not because I’m a very happy young woman being as I am.

Jesus does love you and accept you as who you are. But he will never, unfortunately, accept sin.

The question you should ask yourself, it seems, is: “Do I accept Jesus on his terms, or mine?”

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Just in an attempt to get back to basics here…

I therefore have two areas of inquiry:

Thanks.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

Coptic, you titled this thread “Homosexuality and Hope.” Presumably you’re referencing the Catholic Medical Association’s document of the same name. From your post and from the text of the CMA document available, I didn’t get a clear vision of the hope referred to in the title of the post.

Other than acceptance of Homosexuality as normal, what Hope would you say should be available for an actively practicing Homosexual?

Moreover, the CMA document does not appear to make a real distinction between “homosexuality” and “SSA.” I know that you, however, make that distinction, or have at least attempted to do so.

I understand your point of view. What is it you want to distinguish and why?

1–What, really, is being referred to when you use the term “homosexuality” in the title of this thread? Is it a pattern of sexual behavior, a pattern of attraction or both (and how will you subsequently distinguish between behavior and attraction in your ensuing remarks)?

The difficulty as you know is that the DSM II correctly identified Homosexuality for what it is and then the politics go into play. Same Sex attraction would be considered as being hopeful and in that regard I see that as the springboard for discussion. If active homosexuals in their aberrant, sinful behavior have been shown to be able to change then this is powerful information for those that have SSA. If Addicts on crack can stop smoking crack then anyone thinking of smoking crack can overcome that temptation as well.

2–What, precisely, is the vision of hope for homosexuals/homosexuality being advocated for here? What are the features of that vision that mark it as a vision of hope? How does a homosexual / person-who-experiences-same-sex-attraction best live into that vision?

The vision is the Essentialism as espoused by those that accept the APA, born that way with the consequence of a doomed life without escape is wrong and that the notion that society and culture shape our sexuality so that sexuality is nothing but an expression as based on what society says is also wrong.

Your questions about living are broad based and the best that can be said is that for a person with SSA that may consider that the APA notion that the only counseling should be for acceptance…they should know that when the SB-1172 is defeated that there will and should be an alternate point of view with counseling that they can seek.

The active Homosexual that finds change desireable motivated for whatever reason for change would also find that there are modalities available for change and the Fundamentalist point of view is not the only point of view and the gospel of the APA is only a point of view and not fixed in any therapists mind.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Same Sex attraction would be considered as being hopeful and in that regard I see that as the springboard for discussion.

I don’t know what this sentence means and cannot deduce what you’re trying to say from its surrounding context.

The vision is the Essentialism as espoused by those that accept the APA, born that way with the consequence of a doomed life without escape is wrong and that the notion that society and culture shape our sexuality so that sexuality is nothing but an expression as based on what society says is also wrong.

Your questions about living are broad based and the best that can be said is that for a person with SSA that may consider that the APA notion that the only counseling should be for acceptance…they should know that when the SB-1172 is defeated that there will and should be an alternate point of view with counseling that they can seek.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I wasn’t looking for you to articulate what you think the vision of hope offered by the APA or “Essentialists” might be. You can only speculate on that.

I’m asking* you* what *your *vision of hope for homosexuals / same-sex attracted folks is–what does it look like? How is it expressive of hope? How can we discern hope in the shape of lives lived according to your vision?

The active Homosexual that finds change desireable motivated for whatever reason for change would also find that there are modalities available for change and the Fundamentalist point of view is not the only point of view and the gospel of the APA is only a point of view and not fixed in any therapists mind.

What sort of change are you advocating as part of your vision of hope, apart from behavioral change for those who engage in homosexual sexual behavior?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

I don’t know what this sentence means and cannot deduce what you’re trying to say from its surrounding context.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I wasn’t looking for you to articulate what you think the vision of hope offered by the APA or “Essentialists” might be. You can only speculate on that.

I’m asking* you* what *your *vision of hope for homosexuals / same-sex attracted folks is–what does it look like? How is it expressive of hope? How can we discern hope in the shape of lives lived according to your vision?

What sort of change are you advocating as part of your vision of hope, apart from behavioral change for those who engage in homosexual sexual behavior?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

Too few words…

Same Sex attraction would be considered as being hopeful and in that regard I see that as the springboard for discussion. If active homosexuals in their aberrant, sinful behavior have been shown to be able to change then this is powerful information for those that have SSA. If Addicts on crack can stop smoking crack then anyone thinking of smoking crack can overcome that temptation as well.

Any person with SSA knowing that someone that is actively Homosexual in their life/actions that are sinful, aberrant and not normal, can change and revert to other than someone that is actively sinning and acting in an other than normal fashion would have hope for their situation.

Imagine the situation where someone says…Homosexuality is fixed. Once a Homosexual always a Homosexual. The only hope you have once you engage in Homosexual activity is to stay that way. This is very different than seeing that Homosexuals in their sin, in their aberrancy, in their unnatural behavior have the ability to change and not act this way.

This is Hope…

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Imagine the situation where someone says…Homosexuality is fixed. Once a Homosexual always a Homosexual. The only hope you have once you engage in Homosexual activity is to stay that way.

Stay what way? They were same-sex attracted before the behavior, they’re same-sex attracted after the behavior. During the behavior, they’re a same-sex attracted person engaging in same-sex sexual activity. It seems logical that when you’re not engaging in homosexual activity that you’re not engaging in homosexual activity. But regardless of your sexual activity (be it same-sex, opposite-sex or some form of abstinence) you will be same-sex attracted insofar as you’re attracted to the same sex.

This is very different than seeing that Homosexuals in their sin, in their aberrancy, in their unnatural behavior have the ability to change and not act this way.

This is Hope…

You’ve yet to describe of what that hope consists, why it can be considered hopeful, and what the shape of a person’s life might look like if they were to share or subscribe to that hope.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Stay what way? They were same-sex attracted before the behavior, they’re same-sex attracted after the behavior. During the behavior, they’re a same-sex attracted person engaging in same-sex sexual activity. It seems logical that when you’re not engaging in homosexual activity that you’re not engaging in homosexual activity. But regardless of your sexual activity (be it same-sex, opposite-sex or some form of abstinence) you will be same-sex attracted insofar as you’re attracted to the same sex.

You’ve yet to describe of what that hope consists, why it can be considered hopeful, and what the shape of a person’s life might look like if they were to share or subscribe to that hope.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

Then you are saying once SSA always SSA and I do not believe this to be true.

 

[buffalo]

So you are suggesting that we reject the well-reasoned APA view because those who espouse an anti-gay agenda believe that ex-gay therapy works? Is that about the sum of it? Come on.

“Political Correctness Rules, Not Science,” Says American Psychological Association Past-President

Was Never Done," Says Former A.P.A. President in Interview

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Then you are saying once SSA always SSA and I do not believe this to be true.

Always is a very long time, Coptic, and is applicable to very few things. I do believe, however, that experiential and scientific evidence supports the following: that a sexual orientation is relatively stable and consistent throughout an individual’s life in such a way that any “change” which occurs to that orientation (as opposed to personal behavior) that does not happen organically and over time is likely to be the result of some form of coercion, violence, or (self-) deception and is therefore unlikely to be true, lasting, indicative of actual change, or fulfilling in any real or human way. Moreover, I believe that the more we think in terms of rigid categories into which everyone must perfectly fall (as if such categories were everywhere and always reflective of real life as it is lived by everyone), the more we’re living in a fantasy land of our own devising.

As such, I do not believe that the question, “should I change?” is the question that defines (or should define) what it means to be same-sex attracted. Furthermore, I believe that conversion therapy is analogous to a cross between crystal healing and elective cosmetic surgery–generally harmless, though there is some risk of harm or disfigurement, but ultimately rather useless and beside the point.

And given that the catechism’s teaching on the benefits or efficacy of conversion therapy is non-existent, the moral theological point seems to be that such therapy is unnecessary in order to lead a moral life. Therefore, the practice of conversion therapy appears to be more of a personal political gesture than a moral one. As such, the importance of conversion therapy will always be exaggerated if not completely overblown by those who agree with the political premises it takes for granted.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Always is a very long time, Coptic, and is applicable to very few things. I do believe, however, that experiential and scientific evidence supports the following: that a sexual orientation is relatively stable and consistent throughout an individual’s life in such a way that any “change” which occurs to that orientation (as opposed to personal behavior) that does not happen organically and over time is likely to be the result of some form of coercion, violence, or (self-) deception and is therefore unlikely to be true, lasting, indicative of actual change, or fulfilling in any real or human way. Moreover, I believe that the more we think in terms of rigid categories into which everyone must perfectly fall (as if such categories were everywhere and always reflective of real life as it is lived by everyone), the more we’re living in a fantasy land of our own devising.

As such, I do not believe that the question, “should I change?” is the question that defines (or should define) what it means to be same-sex attracted. Furthermore, I believe that conversion therapy is analogous to a cross between crystal healing and elective cosmetic surgery–generally harmless, though there is some risk of harm or disfigurement, but ultimately rather useless and beside the point.

And given that the catechism’s teaching on the benefits or efficacy of conversion therapy is non-existent, the moral theological point seems to be that such therapy is unnecessary in order to lead a moral life. Therefore, the practice of conversion therapy appears to be more of a personal political gesture than a moral one. As such, the importance of conversion therapy will always be exaggerated if not completely overblown by those who agree with the political premises it takes for granted.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

Always is a very long time, Coptic, and is applicable to very few things. I do believe, however, that experiential and scientific evidence supports the following: that a sexual orientation is relatively stable and consistent throughout an individual’s life in such a way that any “change” which occurs to that orientation (as opposed to personal behavior) that does not happen organically and over time is likely to be the result of some form of coercion, violence, or (self-) deception and is therefore unlikely to be true, lasting, indicative of actual change, or fulfilling in any real or human way.

Your belief that Homosexuality is fixed and if change occures is not long lasting or is due to coercion, violence or deception has to be changed. You need to take into account reports of Spontaneuos change.

Wolpe’s (1969) patient, who was in treatment for assertiveness training, reported a spontaneous shift to heterosexual behavior, even when the focus was not on changing it. Fluker (1976), a medical doctor treating gay-identified men for sexually transmitted diseases (not homosexuality), learned from one of his patients, who was not in conversion therapy, that he no longer had homosexual inclinations and was happily married to a woman. Cameron and Crawford (1985) discovered that 2% of their random sample of 170 claimed they had once been homosexual, which was not reportedly due to any intervention.

Nichols’ (1988) study mentioned a client who had spontaneously developed heterosexual interests and transformed from a bisexual to a heterosexual in mid-life. Shechter (1992) reported spontaneous change in a male client who had been in psychoanalysis (not for treatment of homosexuality).

Michael, Gagnon, Laumann, and Kolata (1994) found that based on a national survey, some people even change their sexual orientation without psychotherapy. Even without intervention, studies have shown that sexual orientation is not a unitary, one-dimensional construct (Weinrich & Klein, 2002).

Wolpe, J. (1969). The practice of behavior therapy. New York: Pergamon.

Fluker, J. (1976). A 10-year study of homosexually transmitted infection. British Journal of Venereal Diseases, 55, 155-160.

Cameron, P., & Crawford, J. (1985). Sexual orientation and sexually transmitted disease. Nebraska Medical Journal, 70, 292-299.

Nicols, M. (1988). Bisexuality in woman: Myths, realities and implications for therapy. Women and Therapy, 7(2-3), 235-252.

Shechter, R. A. (1992). Treatment parameters and structural change: Reflections on the Psychotherapy of a male homosexual. International Forum of Psychoanalysis, 1, 197-201.
Michael, R. T., Gagnon, J. H., Laumann, E. O., & Kolata, G. (1994). Sex in America: A definitive survey. Boston: Little, Brown.

Weinrich, J. D. & Klein, F. (2002). Bi-gay, bi-straight, and bi-bi: Three bisexual subgroups identified using cluster analysis of the Klein sexual orientation grid. Journal of Bisexuality, 2, 109-139.

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Always is a very long time, Coptic, and is applicable to very few things. I do believe, however, that experiential and scientific evidence supports the following: that a sexual orientation is relatively stable and consistent throughout an individual’s life in such a way that any “change” which occurs to that orientation (as opposed to personal behavior) that does not happen organically and over time is likely to be the result of some form of coercion, violence, or (self-) deception and is therefore unlikely to be true, lasting, indicative of actual change, or fulfilling in any real or human way. Moreover, I believe that the more we think in terms of rigid categories into which everyone must perfectly fall (as if such categories were everywhere and always reflective of real life as it is lived by everyone), the more we’re living in a fantasy land of our own devising.

And given that the catechism’s teaching on the benefits or efficacy of conversion therapy is non-existent, the moral theological point seems to be that such therapy is unnecessary in order to lead a moral life. Therefore, the practice of conversion therapy appears to be more of a personal political gesture than a moral one. As such, the importance of conversion therapy will always be exaggerated if not completely overblown by those who agree with the political premises it takes for granted.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

As such, I do not believe that the question, “should I change?” is the question that defines (or should define) what it means to be same-sex attracted. Furthermore, I believe that conversion therapy is analogous to a cross between crystal healing and elective cosmetic surgery–generally harmless, though there is some risk of harm or disfigurement, but ultimately rather useless and beside the point.

Lets accept that there are SSA people that are chaste, have hope, some may change and some suffer.

Now what is the Hope you believe should be possible for a Homosexual active in sin, performing acts that are not normal and detract from their humanity. Other than acceptance that this depraved life is normal, tell me what Hope should we expect for them?

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Your belief that Homosexuality is fixed and if change occures is not long lasting or is due to coercion, violence or deception has to be changed. You need to take into account reports of Spontaneuos change.

You’re not doing a very good job of reading what I actually write. But this is unsurprising.

I didn’t say homosexuality was fixed and if changed occurs is not long lasting etc. I wrote: "that a sexual orientation is relatively stable and consistent throughout an individual’s life in such a way that any “change” which occurs to that orientation (as opposed to personal behavior) that does not happen organically and over time is likely to be the result of some form of coercion, violence, or (self-) deception and is therefore * unlikely* to be true, lasting, indicative of actual change, or fulfilling in any real or human way.

Nowhere did I use the word “fixed”, nor did I use the phrase “is not long lasting.” You’re the one who enjoys thinking and speaking in absolutes, Coptic, not me.

Anecdotal or outdated reports of spontaneous change are lovely and are certainly suggestive. I’d be interested in reading a recent peer reviewed study of such reports. I don’t think such a thing exists, however. Perhaps it should. But until it does, we have nothing apart from the authority of our own experience, views and opinions by which to evaluate such claims. Which is fine for our own private purposes, fine for evaluating what these reports mean to us, but insufficient grounds from which to accurately determine the real or general value or usefulness of such reports beyond our construal of their personal value to us.

Lets accept that there are SSA people that are chaste, have hope, some may change and some suffer.

Let’s also accept that some same-sex attracted people who are chaste and have hope may neither change nor suffer any more than anyone else who is human.

Now what is the Hope you believe should be possible for a Homosexual active in sin, performing acts that are not normal and detract from their humanity. Other than acceptance that this depraved life is normal, tell me what Hope should we expect for them?

Sorry Coptic, but you’re dodging the question. *You *have yet to articulate your vision of hope referred to in the title of this thread. You’ve yet to describe of what that hope consists, why it can be considered hopeful, and what the shape of a person’s life might look like if they were to share or subscribe to that hope. It is therefore increasingly my belief that your inability to articulate this vision of hope is due to the fact that you don’t actually have one, or due to an unwillingness to have that vision evaluated or critiqued by anyone apart from yourself as you suspect it won’t stand up to scrutiny.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

You’re not doing a very good job of reading what I actually write. But this is unsurprising.

I didn’t say homosexuality was fixed and if changed occurs is not long lasting etc. I wrote: "that a sexual orientation is relatively stable and consistent throughout an individual’s life in such a way that any “change” which occurs to that orientation (as opposed to personal behavior) that does not happen organically and over time is likely to be the result of some form of coercion, violence, or (self-) deception and is therefore * unlikely* to be true, lasting, indicative of actual change, or fulfilling in any real or human way.

Nowhere did I use the word “fixed”, nor did I use the phrase “is not long lasting.” You’re the one who enjoys thinking and speaking in absolutes, Coptic, not me.

Perhaps it should. But until it does, we have nothing apart from the authority of our own experience, views and opinions by which to evaluate such claims. Which is fine for our own private purposes, fine for evaluating what these reports mean to us, but insufficient grounds from which to accurately determine the real or general value or usefulness of such reports beyond our construal of their personal value to us.

Let’s also accept that some same-sex attracted people who are chaste and have hope may neither change nor suffer any more than anyone else who is human.

Sorry Coptic, but you’re dodging the question. *You *have yet to articulate your vision of hope referred to in the title of this thread. You’ve yet to describe of what that hope consists, why it can be considered hopeful, and what the shape of a person’s life might look like if they were to share or subscribe to that hope. It is therefore increasingly my belief that your inability to articulate this vision of hope is due to the fact that you don’t actually have one, or due to an unwillingness to have that vision evaluated or critiqued by anyone apart from yourself as you suspect it won’t stand up to scrutiny.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

Anecdotal or outdated reports of spontaneous change are lovely and are certainly suggestive. I’d be interested in reading a recent peer reviewed study of such reports. I don’t think such a thing exists, however.

We in the medical field read and understand. When we don’t agree with what we read, we look for alternate points of view that can be documented. We don’ ask for recent peer reviewed reports. What is, is.

Long ago it was found that fiber decreased the incidence of Colon Cancer. This was discovered by a guy named Burkett…studying lymphoma. He noticed that Africans had bulky stool, looked at their diet, their incidence of colon cancer and reported it…no one then said…lets get a recent peer reviwed report…it is what it is.

The secular world has glomed onto this “recent peer reviewed”…in the sudy of Medical Science, it is often true that many discoveries are made, published and not in what you call mainstream journals. They are often found in obscure journals and that is what makes reading this stuff so interesting. Often the mainstream, peer reviewed, stuff is garbage…

That is why CME credits are given for reading Journals…because it causes reflection…

No physician I know has a Knee jerk…let’s see some recent stuff and be sure it is in peer reviewed…more likely than not a Physician would say…check this out…this was published 60 years ago…and look at some other stuff…no one is paying attention to this…we need to do a Review article on this stuff so people can see what we have figured out…since most articles appear randomly as you may have noticed in more than one Journal…

Notice that the APA owns 28 journals, refused to publish genetic data on homosexuality , it is not genetic, so it was published by other than a peer reviewe APA approved journal…it does not make the data any less true.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

We in the medical field read and understand. When we don’t agree with what we read, we look for alternate points of view that can be documented. We don’ ask for recent peer reviewed reports. What is, is.

Long ago it was found that fiber decreased the incidence of Colon Cancer. This was discovered by a guy named Burkett…studying lymphoma. He noticed that Africans had bulky stool, looked at their diet, their incidence of colon cancer and reported it…no one then said…lets get a recent peer reviwed report…it is what it is.

The secular world has glomed onto this “recent peer reviewed”…in the sudy of Medical Science, it is often true that many discoveries are made, published and not in what you call mainstream journals. They are often found in obscure journals and that is what makes reading this stuff so interesting. Often the mainstream, peer reviewed, stuff is garbage…

That is why CME credits are given for reading Journals…because it causes reflection…

No physician I know has a Knee jerk…let’s see some recent stuff and be sure it is in peer reviewed…more likely than not a Physician would say…check this out…this was published 60 years ago…and look at some other stuff…no one is paying attention to this…we need to do a Review article on this stuff so people can see what we have figured out…since most articles appear randomly as you may have noticed in more than one Journal…

Notice that the APA owns 28 journals, refused to publish genetic data on homosexuality , it is not genetic, so it was published by other than a peer reviewe APA approved journal…it does not make the data any less true.

Sorry Coptic, but you’re dodging the question. Again.

You have yet to articulate your vision of hope referred to in the title of this thread. You’ve yet to describe of what that hope consists, why it can be considered hopeful, and what the shape of a person’s life might look like if they were to share or subscribe to that hope. It is therefore increasingly my belief that your inability to articulate this vision of hope is due to the fact that you don’t actually have one, or due to an unwillingness to have that vision evaluated or critiqued by anyone apart from yourself as you suspect it won’t stand up to scrutiny.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Sorry Coptic, but you’re dodging the question. Again.

You have yet to articulate your vision of hope referred to in the title of this thread. You’ve yet to describe of what that hope consists, why it can be considered hopeful, and what the shape of a person’s life might look like if they were to share or subscribe to that hope. It is therefore increasingly my belief that your inability to articulate this vision of hope is due to the fact that you don’t actually have one, or due to an unwillingness to have that vision evaluated or critiqued by anyone apart from yourself as you suspect it won’t stand up to scrutiny.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

Read the document provided by the Catholic Medical Association…

catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0054.html

Homosexuals Can Change
BRIAN CAULFIELD
A recent position paper of the Catholic Medical Association and an article in the secular journal Professional Psychology, published last month by the American Psychological Association, make the same point. Both cite current medical research and clinical experiences to conclude that homosexuality is not a fixed characteristic and that motivated patients respond well to therapy.

and

catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0039.html

Homosexuality and Hope
CATHOLIC MEDICAL ASSOCIATION
“Homosexuality and Hope” is the result of a two-year study by a special task force of The Catholic Medical Association (CMA). Based on current scientific facts and the practical experience of task force members, “Homosexuality and Hope” outlines a positive program of providing help, support and hope for those homosexual persons who wish to live in union with the Catholic Church.

My hope is the shared Hope of the Catholic Medical Association…after reading the document…tell me what your notion of Hope might be…

Do you agree or disagree that knowing that Homosexuals can change is hopeful?

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Mark,

Read the document provided by the Catholic Medical Association…

catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0054.html

and

catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0039.html

My hope is the shared Hope of the Catholic Medical Association…after reading the document…tell me what your notion of Hope might be…

Do you agree or disagree that knowing that Homosexuals can change is hopeful?

You need to do better, Coptic. I told you earlier in this thread that I read what was available online of the CMA document, but was unclear regarding the vision of hope alluded to (the second link you provide is to an older version of the document to which you had previously linked).

If the hope described just amounts to, “you can change your sexual orientation,” I don’t know what is particularly hopeful about that. I.e., exchanging one form of concupiscence for another doesn’t seem particularly earth-shatteringly hopeful to me. It’s fine if people want to do try to do that. But…

The capacity to get a nose-job when you don’t like the shape of your nose is not expressive of any sort of ontological or eschatalogical hope to me, and the idea that you might (under certain conditions) change your sexual orientation is an analogous situation.

Moreover, the CMA would not go so far as to say that a person with same-sex attraction is less capable of living a moral life than a person with opposite-sex attraction. That would be absurd and clearly contrary to Catholic moral teaching. So, from a moral theological perspective…what’s the point?

But there’s no indication from the CMA document that the hope offered* is actually a change of sexual orientation*–it hedges its bets in that regard and prefers terms like “prevention” or “treatment” and focuses on behavioral change.

So if the hope described is little more than, “there’s hope that you don’t need to act out on your same-sex attraction,” then…okay. There are a lot of things I don’t need to do. I wouldn’t describe not doing them as particularly hopeful. You wouldn’t say to any random opposite-sex attracted person just out of the blue, “there’s hope that you don’t need to fornicate!” Most people wouldn’t describe such a thing as “hope,” they’d just describe it as “fact.”

The hope of “not acting out on your same-sex attraction” can only be described as hope if it is assumed a priori that same-sex attraction constitutes or should constitute a burden. That assumption takes us out of the realm of medicine and into a realm of moral speculation which while not contrary to the catechism’s teaching on homosexuality (it makes no definite statement, but uses words like “may” and “most”) is nonetheless not essential to it.

Regardless, the CMA has not succeeded in articulating a positive vision of hope, but a negative one: You can stop! Or You can choose not to start! Fine. But the next question is, “Okay. I’ve stopped or not started. Now what?” The CMA doesn’t have much to say to that. As such, the hope to which it refers doesn’t come across as much more than a linguistic convenience used to describe conformity to a political agenda.

So stop dodging the question, Coptic. How would you articulate a positive vision of hope in this regard? How would you describe of what that hope consists, why it can be considered hopeful, and what the shape of a person’s life might look like if they were to share or subscribe to that hope?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

You need to do better, Coptic. I told you earlier in this thread that I read what was available online of the CMA document, but was unclear regarding the vision of hope alluded to (the second link you provide is to an older version of the document to which you had previously linked).

If the hope described just amounts to, “you can change your sexual orientation,” I don’t know what is particularly hopeful about that. I.e., exchanging one form of concupiscence for another doesn’t seem particularly earth-shatteringly hopeful to me. It’s fine if people want to do try to do that. But…

The capacity to get a nose-job when you don’t like the shape of your nose is not expressive of any sort of ontological or eschatalogical hope to me, and the idea that you might (under certain conditions) change your sexual orientation is an analogous situation.

Moreover, the CMA would not go so far as to say that a person with same-sex attraction is less capable of living a moral life than a person with opposite-sex attraction. That would be absurd and clearly contrary to Catholic moral teaching. So, from a moral theological perspective…what’s the point?

But there’s no indication from the CMA document that the hope offered* is actually a change of sexual orientation*–it hedges its bets in that regard and prefers terms like “prevention” or “treatment” and focuses on behavioral change.

So if the hope described is little more than, “there’s hope that you don’t need to act out on your same-sex attraction,” then…okay. There are a lot of things I don’t need to do. I wouldn’t describe not doing them as particularly hopeful. You wouldn’t say to any random opposite-sex attracted person just out of the blue, “there’s hope that you don’t need to fornicate!” Most people wouldn’t describe such a thing as “hope,” they’d just describe it as “fact.”

The hope of “not acting out on your same-sex attraction” can only be described as hope if it is assumed a priori that same-sex attraction constitutes or should constitute a burden. That assumption takes us out of the realm of medicine and into a realm of moral speculation which while not contrary to the catechism’s teaching on homosexuality (it makes no definite statement, but uses words like “may” and “most”) is nonetheless not essential to it.

Regardless, the CMA has not succeeded in articulating a positive vision of hope, but a negative one: You can stop! Or You can choose not to start! Fine. But the next question is, “Okay. I’ve stopped or not started. Now what?” The CMA doesn’t have much to say to that. As such, the hope to which it refers doesn’t come across as much more than a linguistic convenience used to describe conformity to a political agenda.

So stop dodging the question, Coptic. How would you articulate a positive vision of hope in this regard? How would you describe of what that hope consists, why it can be considered hopeful, and what the shape of a person’s life might look like if they were to share or subscribe to that hope?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

Perfect…so the CMA says you can stop and choose not to start…then you can go to the OHCAC, confess your sins and be celibate and live a moral life…where one ends the other begins…

You can’t profess to be a Christian and be in a same sex relationship because concupiscence is concupiscence…this is no Hope…

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Perfect…so the CMA says you can stop and choose not to start…then you can go to the OHCAC, confess your sins and be celibate and live a moral life…where one ends the other begins…

You can’t profess to be a Christian and be in a same sex relationship because concupiscence is concupiscence…this is no Hope…

Sorry Coptic, but you’re dodging the question. Again.

You have yet to articulate your vision of hope referred to in the title of this thread. You’ve yet to describe of what that hope consists, why it can be considered hopeful, and what the shape of a person’s life might look like if they were to share or subscribe to that hope. It is therefore increasingly my belief that your inability to articulate this vision of hope is due to the fact that you don’t actually have one, or due to an unwillingness to have that vision evaluated or critiqued by anyone apart from yourself as you suspect it won’t stand up to scrutiny.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Sorry Coptic, but you’re dodging the question. Again.

You have yet to articulate your vision of hope referred to in the title of this thread. You’ve yet to describe of what that hope consists, why it can be considered hopeful, and what the shape of a person’s life might look like if they were to share or subscribe to that hope. It is therefore increasingly my belief that your inability to articulate this vision of hope is due to the fact that you don’t actually have one, or due to an unwillingness to have that vision evaluated or critiqued by anyone apart from yourself as you suspect it won’t stand up to scrutiny.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

There is hope that this body and its afflections, for this sin, Homosexuality, focused on the kingdom of man, not the Kingdom of God may be realized in the moment of what is hoped for knowing that hope can be fulfilled in only one way…in Christ…and to know that the shackles of whatever sin it is, particularly the sin of homosexuality,there is hope for other than this world…

Day by day, man experiences many greater or lesser hopes, different in kind according to the different periods of his life. Sometimes one of these hopes may appear to be totally satisfying without any need for other hopes. Young people can have the hope of a great and fully satisfying love; the hope of a certain position in their profession, or of some success that will prove decisive for the rest of their lives. When these hopes are fulfilled, however, it becomes clear that they were not, in reality, the whole. It becomes evident that man has need of a hope that goes further. It becomes clear that only something infinite will suffice for him, something that will always be more than he can ever attain. In this regard our contemporary age has developed the hope of creating a perfect world that, thanks to scientific knowledge and to scientifically based politics, seemed to be achievable. Thus Biblical hope in the Kingdom of God has been displaced by hope in the kingdom of man, the hope of a better world which would be the real “Kingdom of God”.