Homosexuality and marriage

[RevDon]

You lost me once you said “THE TRUTH”. This is a civil issue IMO. It pertains to American law. Our faith disagrees with it but our faith isn’t the law for our country, no matter how much some wish it was so. Understand, the bible is not American law. Everyone should enjoy equal freedoms under the law according to our Constitution.

I think we should remember how Jesus preached the word and apply it to ourselves. Did Jesus concern himself with or change Roman laws? Jesus spoke to the people not the emperor. When Jesus had an opportunity to defend himself before the emperor he was silent. He wasn’t concerned with human laws, only God’s law.

When Jesus was asked about paying imperial taxes, he answered, “Give back to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and to God what is God’s”

2 Tim 2:4 (NIV) No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs–he wants to please his commanding officer

It sounds like you don’t think that the Church should concern itself with justice. It seems to me that Jesus succeeded in overturning the Roman system and making some big changes as a result of speaking truth to power. Catherine of Sienna gained some notoriety for doing that, as did some others, who ended up not so happily at the Church’s hands, but even the benighted Martin Luther succeeded in bringing the Roman Catholic Church to reform, albeit from outside. Where might we be today if people had considered the reforms he urged before excommunicating him and calling the Council of Trent, which adopted many of his ideas?

In the civil arena, this is a justice issue. In the Church, it is a matter of holiness. Can we see a difference between committedlove and promiscuity? It appears that some conservatives are so fixated on looking at the dirty pictures that they miss the underlying reality of grace.

 

[loozcannon]

You lost me once you said “THE TRUTH”. This is a civil issue IMO. It pertains to American law. Our faith disagrees with it but our faith isn’t the law for our country, no matter how much some wish it was so. Understand, the bible is not American law. Everyone should enjoy equal freedoms under the law according to our Constitution.

I think we should remember how Jesus preached the word and apply it to ourselves. Did Jesus concern himself with or change Roman laws? Jesus spoke to the people not the emperor. When Jesus had an opportunity to defend himself before the emperor he was silent. He wasn’t concerned with human laws, only God’s law.

When Jesus was asked about paying imperial taxes, he answered, “Give back to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and to God what is God’s”

2 Tim 2:4 (NIV) No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs–he wants to please his commanding officer

I completely understand that the Bible isn’t American law. I see what you’re saying. But take a moment to remember what catholic means. God’s truth is universal, as is His Church. Worldly laws may or may not align with Christ’s teachings, but that does not change what the truth is.

What equal freedoms does one who has SSA not enjoy that the rest of the world doesn’t? Sure, the SSA folks that opt to live the lifestyle can play at being married, and heck, the courts can even back them up! Yet the truth remains the same in the end.

God is eternal. As are His words. To think His words have changed because of the current zeitgeist would mean to believe Christ is a liar.

Look, this issue is touchy. Emotions run high, everyone knows someone who is “gay.” I get it. I’m not advocating to shun or disrespect those folks with SSA in anyway whatsoever. They simply, by Christ’s own definition, cannot be married. Period. Dot.

 

[RevDon]

Our God is a God of love, of course! So is His Church:

Take a look at this short video: youtu.be/bXq4izbFgAM. Does that sound like a God of hate?

The courts can attempt to redefine marriage all day long. They can proclaim from their benches that a shape with four sides is henceforth called a triangle. Because they’ve redefined it, doesn’t change what a shape with four sides really is.

Using your analogy of dialogue, it does take two to carry on a conversation; one to speak, the other to listen. The TRUTH has not changed, if others don’t want to hear it, it doesn’t make it any less true.

Our God is a loving God indeed, but is he not also a just God?

As I keep stating. No one is trying to redefine marriage. Same sex couples want exactly the same things as heterosexuals want. What needs work are the prohibitions that bar access to marriage.

Our God is a loving God indeed, but is he not also a just God?
The question is, when you try to live in a Godly way, which of the two do you emulate?

 

[loozcannon]

As I keep stating. No one is trying to redefine marriage. Same sex couples want exactly the same things as heterosexuals want. What needs work are the prohibitions that bar access to marriage.

All human beings have the desire to be loved and to be accepted. I get it. However, the Church will not change Her position as to what a marriage is.

The question is, when you try to live in a Godly way, which of the two do you emulate?

Why, love of course. It’s one of the top two commandments. But even in love there are boundaries.

 

[Apolojez]

It sounds like you don’t think that the Church should concern itself with justice. It seems to me that Jesus succeeded in overturning the Roman system and making some big changes as a result of speaking truth to power. Catherine of Sienna gained some notoriety for doing that, as did some others, who ended up not so happily at the Church’s hands, but even the benighted Martin Luther succeeded in bringing the Roman Catholic Church to reform, albeit from outside. Where might we be today if people had considered the reforms he urged before excommunicating him and calling the Council of Trent, which adopted many of his ideas?

In the civil arena, this is a justice issue. In the Church, it is a matter of holiness. Can we see a difference between committedlove and promiscuity? It appears that some conservatives are so fixated on looking at the dirty pictures that they miss the underlying reality of grace.

Regarding morals I do but not concerning civil issues. It’s not like gay marriage is what makes homosexuality immoral to Christians. The act itself is immoral according to scripture, not their commitment to one another. Whether homosexuals marry does not affect its morality IMO. Homosexuality will still be regarded as an abomination to Christians regardless if they are married or not correct? The only thing that is affected is our human law. Which is why I contend this issue isn’t about religion but civil law.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

• RESPONSE TO REVDON That’s fair.** But I hope you have the courage to make sure your bishop knows your beliefs on marriage-and if you don’t, I have very little respect for you.
  **.

Yes, RevDon claims to be a Catholic Priest however is hiding under a pseudonym and will not reveal his views to his Bishop. I don’t see how RevDon can be construed as standing up for Christ.

If he was really standing up for Christ he would not be hiding behind facades. I don’t have any respect for RevDon’s views either especially since they seem to be coming from behind a curtain.

 

[RevDon]

All human beings have the desire to be loved and to be accepted. I get it. However, the Church will not change Her position as to what a marriage is.

Why, love of course. It’s one of the top two commandments. But even in love there are boundaries.

One more time: No one is suggesting that the Church or the state change what marriage means, what a marriage is, the definition of marriage.
People are seeking for an end to the barrier in access to marriage.

 

[loozcannon]

One more time: No one is suggesting that the Church or the state change what marriage means, what a marriage is, the definition of marriage.
People are seeking for an end to the barrier in access to marriage.

Hmm. What do you mean by barriers?

 

[RevDon]

Regarding morals I do but not concerning civil issues. It’s not like gay marriage is what makes homosexuality immoral to Christians. The act itself is immoral according to scripture, not their commitment to one another. Whether homosexuals marry does not affect its morality IMO. Homosexuality will still be regarded as an abomination to Christians regardless if they are married or not correct? The only thing that is affected is our human law. Which is why I contend this issue isn’t about religion but civil law.

For the most part, I agree with you, especially on your civil law argument.
The hearts of many Christians have reached adamantine hardness on this. But what’s interesting is that the poll number, including those on Catholic opinion, have shifted.
Conservatives will give that a religious spin to the right and say that the devil is having his way; liberals will say the Holy Spirit is at work.
As we have seen many times over in this string, one of the determining factors in affecting opinion is actually knowing a same-sex couple. As long as the people oppressed are a faceless minority it’s easy to apply the harshest judgment. When even the most hard-nosed conservative gets to know a same-sex couple it’s “I didn’t mean you.” Then, gradually the humanity begins to have its effect so that gradually even those folks can love others as they love themselves.
That’s my loooooong term hope.

 

[RevDon]

Hmm. What do you mean by barriers?

prohibitions

 

[RevDon]

Yes, RevDon claims to be a Catholic Priest however is hiding under a pseudonym and will not reveal his views to his Bishop. I don’t see how RevDon can be construed as standing up for Christ.

If he was really standing up for Christ he would not be hiding behind facades. I don’t have any respect for RevDon’s views either especially since they seem to be coming from behind a curtain.

If what I write is false, then show it to be so through your argument.
So far, all I’ve heard is that you don’t like what I’ve written (I presume because it challenges your presuppositions and you are inadequate to the task of refuting my argument) so how about a little character assasination , Mark and Grace. That’s a good tack for a couple of Catholics to take.
This is beginning to sound like something that we read during Holy Week.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Here is the dilemma of the same-sex marriage fanatics.

What great bona fide religious leader in the history of the world ever promoted such an idea?

Certainly not Jesus. Not Paul. Not Augustine. Not Aquinas. Not Martin Luther. Not Martin Luther King Jr.

If it was ever a long denied right that made sense to anyone, why was it never demanded until the lunatics of modern times demanded the enshrinement of sodomy as a sacrament?

 

[RevDon]

Here is the dilemma of the same-sex marriage fanatics.

What great bona fide religious leader in the history of the world ever promoted such an idea?

Certainly not Jesus. Not Paul. Not Augustine. Not Aquinas. Not Martin Luther. Not Martin Luther King Jr.

If it was ever a long denied right that made sense to anyone, why was it never demanded until the lunatics of modern times demanded the enshrinement of sodomy as a sacrament?

There is a time for everything under heaven. How long did it take for someone to suggest freedom for Black people? What were those proponents called by those who opposed it?
How long did it take for someone to propose equal voting rights for women? What were those proponents called by those who opposed it?

Were arguments from the Bible used to oppose those movements?

By the way…It was Paul who said that in Christ there is no man or woman. Would it not logically follow that those for whom that distinction is so important are not in Christ?

 

[pete_29]

Father, son, brother, mother daughter, sister are indeed gender-specific terms used in describing family relationships. The words are human constructs, but the realities are God-given. Love, compassion, nurturing, support, and guidance are things people do. We do them sometimes just because people are kin. We do them sometimes because we comport our will to that of God, who does these same things, and with Jesus who told us to love one another. The family structure is the best place for people to give and to receive these gifts and to learn how to give and receive them. That said, is it God’s will that people be barred from the institution where these God-given gifts are exercised, or are we using our own (humanity’s prejudices and fears) will and just claim that it is God. The prejudices are ancient, and grew out of ancient concerns at a time when authorities did not hesitate to say that they spoke for God.

Balderdash!!! God created us male and female for a reason. You can spin it anyway you want, but God made it natural that a man be with a woman and a woman be with a man. Anything more than that is humankind trying to prove that they are superior to God.

 

[dandingo]

There is a time for everything under heaven. How long did it take for someone to suggest freedom for Black people? What were those proponents called by those who opposed it?
How long did it take for someone to propose equal voting rights for women? What were those proponents called by those who opposed it?

Were arguments from the Bible used to oppose those movements?

By the way…It was Paul who said that in Christ there is no man or woman. Would it not logically follow that those for whom that distinction is so important are not in Christ?

The difference is that not one single race lives in sin because of their race. Certain sexual actions and orientations, on the other hand, allow one to live in sin. Sodomy is a sin. Jesus did forgive the prostitute and didn’t judge her. But he then said, “Go, and sin no more.”

Pulling out the race card is fallacious at best. There is exactly zero differences between races. There are a plethora differences between sexes.

 

[pete_29]

You dance well.

What have I written that isn’t true.

 

[pete_29]

For the most part, I agree with you, especially on your civil law argument.
The hearts of many Christians have reached adamantine hardness on this. But what’s interesting is that the poll number, including those on Catholic opinion, have shifted.
Conservatives will give that a religious spin to the right and say that the devil is having his way; liberals will say the Holy Spirit is at work.
As we have seen many times over in this string, one of the determining factors in affecting opinion is actually knowing a same-sex couple. As long as the people oppressed are a faceless minority it’s easy to apply the harshest judgment. When even the most hard-nosed conservative gets to know a same-sex couple it’s “I didn’t mean you.” Then, gradually the humanity begins to have its effect so that gradually even those folks can love others as they love themselves.
That’s my loooooong term hope.

Man knows better than God. Wow! That’s just simply amazing. :banghead:

 

[SonSearcher]

If what I write is false, then show it to be so through your argument.
So far, all I’ve heard is that you don’t like what I’ve written (I presume because it challenges your presuppositions and you are inadequate to the task of refuting my argument) so how about a little character assasination , Mark and Grace. That’s a good tack for a couple of Catholics to take.
This is beginning to sound like something that we read during Holy Week.

Now correct me if I am wrong… but did you just subtly equate your dissenting position on homosexual marriage and how you choose to argue your point to Our Lord’s betrayal?

I surely hope not.

I have to point out that your tone in this thread continues to suggest an air of pride. You say you “respect” the Church’s position on this subject but I am sorry obedience is everything… of course unless the hierarchy as a whole is doing “sinful” things…which in this case you causing scandal by announcing your dissenting opinion is more sinful.

 

[RevDon]

The difference is that not one single race lives in sin because of their race. Certain sexual actions and orientations, on the other hand, allow one to live in sin. Sodomy is a sin. Jesus did forgive the prostitute and didn’t judge her. But he then said, “Go, and sin no more.”

Pulling out the race card is fallacious at best. There is exactly zero differences between races. There are a plethora differences between sexes.

I have written earlier that Catholics often think that what they experience has always been, and you just proved me right.
You know quite well that it was not so long age people taught that there were tremendous differences between the races.
Medicine is showing that there are differences today, for example in succeptibility to particular diseases.
What we have come around to as a civilization is that the differences don’t matter for functions that were at one time prohibited.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Rev Don is a troll. Do not feed him