Homosexuality and Natural Law -- A Concern

  • Thread starter Thread starter Prodigal_Son
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’ve said it before: consistency is just not a hallmark of your thinking.

To wit:

You’ve not noticed a basic tenet of freedom. Live and let live means you must allow each to decide for themselves what live means.
-inocente

Explain, again, why YOU must not allow the Taliban to decide for themselves what “live” means as a “basic tenet of freedom?”
Yes, I’ve been called unChristian, thick, dishonest and insincere on this subject. It’s consistent with being bullied. It’s what bullies do.

The Taliban can do whatever they want to themselves. They can take whatever view of live they want and produce whatever ideology they want, that’s their freedom. The problem comes when they try to impose their ideology on others. Since then they do not live and let live.

Surely reciprocity is very simple. Live and let live expresses the ideal of each person living her own life as she sees fit. It therefore acts against all ideologies by which one person or group tries to impose themselves on her. It is an anti-rape principle. I don’t understand why either I or the Pope need to spell out something so simple and obvious.

It’s also dead boring having to write posts to spell out the obvious. I’ve said it before: thinking is just not a hallmark of your thinking. 😃
 
Since raping and pillaging Vikings “care naught for contracts,” they would seem indistinguishable from Jesus, who also does not. As you say…

Unlike Satan and the Pharisees - and very like Jesus - the Vikings fight against the “letter of the law” with the “spirit of the law” written on THEIR hearts

This has nothing to do with legalities, but rather with the robust Viking spirit, so stop “waving your arms around in a desperate attempt” to get your legal case against the Viking “spirit” off the ground.

The Vikings, like Jesus, apparently, also "knew full well the spirit of live and let live, they are quite willing to let others live as they want because those “others” provided suitable subjects to rape and pillage. They didn’t demand everyone live as Vikings precisely because that, indeed, would ‘cramp their lifestyle’ as Vikings. They didn’t want everyone mimicking the Viking lifestyle, it wouldn’t be sustainable that way. Neither evangelization nor conversion was not part of the Viking creed. They were quite happy allowing other cultures to co-exist BECAUSE those cultures provided a suitable foil for the Viking lifestyle, which positively required that others live different lifestyles in order to be raped and pillaged.

The Vikings positively endorsed “live and let live” (except, of course, when they needed to rape and pillage those they, otherwise, allowed to be free to live and let live.)
All I can say is you must have a lot of free time on your hands. Perhaps you could write children’s fantasy, that genre would appear to be right up your street.

I’ve been told the Pope is on twitter. You might like to tweet your Viking critique of his thinking to him. I’m sure he would be only too happy to give it the attention it deserves. 😃

You might detect that I’m finding your increasingly convoluted escape attempts hard to take seriously.
White is black, black is white.

Float like a bee, sting like a butterfly.
No, I leave that to you, you are a past master, I am not worthy.
 
Not to put too fine a point on “live and let live,” inocente, but it should observed that the Vikings fully endorsed the ‘spirit’ - though not the letter - of “live and let live” - which would seem to support your perspective - because they did not seek to restrict anyone’s life vision by the imposition of moral or legal constraints and preferred that everyone make their own way in a law-less world. They certainly were not Pharisees. They lived a “spirited” existence. They didn’t seek to impose their laws or moral beliefs on others and didn’t oppose others having different laws or moral beliefs. They lived freely and let others live by whatever vision, goals, laws or ethics they chose to.

Certainly, they raped and pillaged, but they obstinately did not try to force others to adopt their way of life - “live and let live” would have been an apt description of Viking morality. Just don’t try to force Vikings to comply with your moral principles against raping and pillaging was all they asked in return for allowing you to comply with whatever moral principles you wanted. They were very easy going regarding tolerance for others’ beliefs. I suspect they probably loved that some cultures were pacifist, since that made life much easier for them.

Just my :twocents:
 
Not to put too fine a point on “live and let live,” inocente, but it should observed that the Vikings fully endorsed the ‘spirit’ - though not the letter - of “live and let live” - which would seem to support your perspective - because they did not seek to restrict anyone’s life vision by the imposition of moral or legal constraints and preferred that everyone make their own way in a law-less world. They certainly were not Pharisees. They lived a “spirited” existence. They didn’t seek to impose their laws or moral beliefs on others and didn’t oppose others having different laws or moral beliefs. They lived freely and let others live by whatever vision, goals, laws or ethics they chose to.

Certainly, they raped and pillaged, but they obstinately did not try to force others to adopt their way of life - “live and let live” would have been an apt description of Viking morality. Just don’t try to force Vikings to comply with your moral principles against raping and pillaging was all they asked in return for allowing you to comply with whatever moral principles you wanted. They were very easy going regarding tolerance for others’ beliefs. I suspect they probably loved that some cultures were pacifist, since that made life much easier for them.

Just my :twocents:
Can’t keep up with your posts and I thought you’d already said this. You may be disappointed to learn that no, the Pope did not mean you could go raping and pillaging. I’ve no idea why you think a Viking raping a nun is letting her live her own life.

:newidea:

I can start a thread for you: “Peter Plato thinks a Viking raping a nun is letting her live her own life. Discuss.”

I think that as this thread confirmed Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies yesterday, it just might be a bit tired.
 
We are going in circles again. To save us spending several days doing so:

I ask what is the natural law, you say homosexual “activity” is naughty, I say that’s not what’s written on every heart, and you say oh yes it is but not everyone listens to their heart. I say but their conscience also bears witness, you say but their conscience is badly formed, I say how do you know, and you say because Linus knows best. I say Linus is not the Shepherd but just another sheep, you say ah but the law is written on every heart. Etc.
Again, that is what Paul says God says, and that is what the Chuch says, not Linus. Take your complaints to God, not Linus :D.

Linus2nd.
 
Yes, I’ve been called unChristian, thick, dishonest and insincere on this subject. It’s consistent with being bullied. It’s what bullies do.

The Taliban can do whatever they want to themselves. They can take whatever view of live they want and produce whatever ideology they want, that’s their freedom. The problem comes when they try to impose their ideology on others. Since then they do not live and let live.
They would claim that you are trying to impose your ideology on them by trying to make them conform to the letter of “live and let live.” The spirit of “live and let live” is absolute freedom for everyone to do what they want, for no one to conform to anyone else’s ideology. The Taliban, like the Vikings, do not want you, necessarily, to conform to their ideology, they want you to conform, period. They don’t really care whether you believe what they do, as long as you do what they tell you. You can believe whatever you want - just don’t try to stop them from “living” as they want because that would be imposing your “live” on them and not letting them “live” as they want.

Either way, someone - either you or the Taliban - are not letting the other “live” as they choose.

You, on the other hand, are not happy with “live and let live,” because you want everyone to think ideologically as you do. To share the same set of values as you - freedom, kindness, good will, etc. You don’t really want to “let live” except under the very strict parameters you set, but which you squirrel in under the guise and presumption of what it means to “live.”
Surely reciprocity is very simple. Live and let live expresses the ideal of each person living her own life as she sees fit. It therefore acts against all ideologies by which one person or group tries to impose themselves on her. It is an anti-rape principle. I don’t understand why either I or the Pope need to spell out something so simple and obvious.
You need to “spell it out” precisely because you are invoking the letter and not the spirit of “live and let live.” If it were the spirit, anything would be permissible as “let live.” You can’t tolerate that so you want to stipulate - spell out - the terms of “let live,” terms which are precisely the antithesis of “let live.”
It’s also dead boring having to write posts to spell out the obvious. I’ve said it before: thinking is just not a hallmark of your thinking. 😃
The problem is that it isn’t “obvious” precisely because you have such difficulty spelling out the terms of “let live” in a consistent way that excludes behaviours you don’t want but includes those you do. You are only willing to allow some to “live” provided you find their living accords with your lifestyle, but you refuse to allow others to live in any way that compromises your lifestyle.

The reason for this is precisely because “let live” fails as a foundational moral principle. There will always be a need in ethics to curtail the behaviours of some individuals and not allow them “to live” in whatever way they choose. “Live” sometimes conflicts both logically and morally with “let live” which is why it can’t function as a consistent moral principle, but, rather, assumes a workable morality.

In other words, within or given a workable ethical system we can “live and let live” provided everyone lives within the set of functional and consistent ethical parameters. “Live and let live” presumes an ethical system, it does NOT provide one.

To let the Taliban “live,” as a moral injunction means that you will live in such a way that allows the Taliban to flourish (i.e., “let live,”) You would necessarily have to capitulate to Taliban demands in order to let them “live.” On the other hand, in order for the Taliban to allow you to live according to your ideology, the Taliban must capitulate and compromise their ideology, so they must not “live” as they will. One or the other cannot “live” unless one or the other is forced to compromise. Either you must force the Taliban to live as you want them to, or they must force you to do so. There is an irreconcilable conflict that cannot be resolved by “live and let live” precisely because it, when read as a moral imperative, creates the very conflict it cannot resolve. There has to be resort to a more fundamental moral principle to determine which of you - you or the Taliban - must cede to the other party because clearly both of you “living” in the way you will does not allow the other to live in the way they will.

The reason it appears “dead simple” to you is because you have a dog in the race, one you think has already crossed the finish line.
 
Can’t keep up with your posts and I thought you’d already said this. You may be disappointed to learn that no, the Pope did not mean you could go raping and pillaging. I’ve no idea why you think a Viking raping a nun is letting her live her own life.

:newidea:

I can start a thread for you: “Peter Plato thinks a Viking raping a nun is letting her live her own life. Discuss.”
It could be placed right after, “Inocente thinks turning a Viking into a law abiding citizen is letting him live his own life. Discuss.”

In other words, “let live” is an impossible notion where nuns and Vikings are concerned, so it cannot be a moral imperative for BOTH nuns and Vikings.

Therefore: “live and let live” cannot be a moral principle.

See how simple that was?
 
Again, that is what Paul says God says, and that is what the Chuch says, not Linus. Take your complaints to God, not Linus :D.
I thought your explanatory post #350 was the best you’ve made on this thread and was going to compliment you on the clarity but forgot.

But then you go and spoil it 🙂 with an argument from authority about what the law requires. Clearly there is disagreement about what God says on this, or there wouldn’t be nearly so many threads.

The authoritarian, such as perhaps your good self, might argue that Paul’s “what the law requires” is a list of rules discovered by his authority. But I’d argue that means not only is the authority unnecessary (we can discover rules written on our hearts all on our ownsome), the list would necessarily be written in our genes as if in stone, and so the authority is redundant once has deliberated. It makes far more sense imho if “what the law requires” is instead a set of principles by which we (and the authority) determine what is just. Scripture is then alive, not dead.

Either way though, that’s not what the OP is about.
 
They would claim that you are trying to impose your ideology on them by trying to make them conform to the letter of “live and let live.” The spirit of “live and let live” is absolute freedom for everyone to do what they want, for no one to conform to anyone else’s ideology. The Taliban, like the Vikings, do not want you, necessarily, to conform to their ideology, they want you to conform, period. They don’t really care whether you believe what they do, as long as you do what they tell you. You can believe whatever you want - just don’t try to stop them from “living” as they want because that would be imposing your “live” on them and not letting them “live” as they want.

Either way, someone - either you or the Taliban - are not letting the other “live” as they choose.

You, on the other hand, are not happy with “live and let live,” because you want everyone to think ideologically as you do. To share the same set of values as you - freedom, kindness, good will, etc. You don’t really want to “let live” except under the very strict parameters you set, but which you squirrel in under the guise and presumption of what it means to “live.”
Sorry Peter but I couldn’t make head or tail of this post. Currently it looks to me as if you are insisting that neither me nor the Pope mean what we said and you refuse point blank to accept that anyone, ever, can take a liberal or minimalist position. That in reality we all crave more rules that at which a stick can be shaken so as to constantly sue each other and get your legal practice off the ground.

You keep repeating the same mantras so I assume you feel you have a case of some description but for the life of me I can’t see it. I’ll have another look tomorrow when my head has stopped spinning.
 
Sorry Peter but I couldn’t make head or tail of this post.

You keep repeating the same mantras so I assume you feel you have a case of some description but for the life of me I can’t see it. I’ll have another look tomorrow when my head has stopped spinning.
It is very simple really.

Heads: Vikings get to live the life of Vikings.
Tails: Nuns get to live the life of nuns.

Live and let live means the coin must keeping spinning and makes your head do the same because you can’t have both. It is a two headed coin after all.

Your head is spinning because you refuse to admit the coin has to land but you refuse to allow it to on one side or the other, therefore you keep watching it spin. Hence your quandary.
In other words, “let live” is an impossible notion where nuns and Vikings are concerned, so it cannot be a moral imperative for BOTH nuns and Vikings.

Therefore: “live and let live” cannot be a moral principle.

See how simple that was?
The coin lands on one or the other - not both.
 
I thought your explanatory post #350 was the best you’ve made on this thread and was going to compliment you on the clarity but forgot.

But then you go and spoil it 🙂 with an argument from authority about what the law requires. Clearly there is disagreement about what God says on this, or there wouldn’t be nearly so many threads.

The authoritarian, such as perhaps your good self, might argue that Paul’s “what the law requires” is a list of rules discovered by his authority. But I’d argue that means not only is the authority unnecessary (we can discover rules written on our hearts all on our ownsome), the list would necessarily be written in our genes as if in stone, and so the authority is redundant once has deliberated. It makes far more sense imho if “what the law requires” is instead a set of principles by which we (and the authority) determine what is just. Scripture is then alive, not dead.

Either way though, that’s not what the OP is about.
Thanks for the complement ( I had to go back and see what I said. ). It was Paul’s mission to preach the Good News to the Gentiles, and that meant every thing Revelation ( both in the Old and New Testament, contained, even what it said about sexual morality, including homosexual acts, abortion, adultry, etc. ). And these are all summed up in the 6th and 9th Commandments, which are included in the Natural Law made specific by God when he wrote the 10 " in stone. " And the reason God did that was the same reason for the entirety of his Revelation, so there would be no mistake due to human weakness, or error in reasoning, so that there would be no excuses.

Rain all morning in Sunny Kansas. Great for the tomatos!

Linus2nd
 
If a proven remedy exists, where’s the concern? Perhaps I don’t understand the statement. :o
 
It is very simple really.

Heads: Vikings get to live the life of Vikings.
Tails: Nuns get to live the life of nuns.

Live and let live means the coin must keeping spinning and makes your head do the same because you can’t have both. It is a two headed coin after all.

Your head is spinning because you refuse to admit the coin has to land but you refuse to allow it to on one side or the other, therefore you keep watching it spin. Hence your quandary.

The coin lands on one or the other - not both.
Still don’t get your problem. You seem to thinking that I and/or the Pope want live and let live to be the only principle, for it to stand alone, but that isn’t at all what’s intended. It doesn’t mean being tolerant of anything illegal or criminal.

It means where you have a choice to accept other people as they are, or else dictate to them how to live their life, you should choose the former. If a kid in class is Muslim and most are not, or really likes math and the rest don’t, it is better to accept that than beat them up. It is a prerequisite to freedom of speech, freedom of belief and freedom from fear. It says if you deny allowing other citizens to choose how to live their own lives, you end up with dictatorship and oppression.

It means if you think gay “activity” is not for you and the couple next door are good people and openly gay, it is better to accept that than cut them off or start a feud or get hot under the collar. It means that what law-abiding consenting citizens do in private is, morally, none of your business.
 
It means if you think gay “activity” is not for you and the couple next door are good people and openly gay, it is better to accept that than cut them off or start a feud or get hot under the collar. It means that what law-abiding consenting citizens do in private is, morally, none of your business.
There are some interesting qualifications here that seem to nuance your position to the point of it becoming a kind of meaningless policy of “niceness.”

Suppose the “couple next door” are running a meth lab and selling to teenagers and children in your neighborhood? Of course, they are no longer “law-abiding,” so I would take it that such transgressions of the law would warrant your interference.

What if the “couple next door” were sexual predators who were a potential threat to the children in the neighborhood?

You could argue that as long as they remained “law-abiding” and didn’t overtly practice their deviancy on children, they ought to be left alone because what they do as “law-abiding consenting citizens” is none of your business.

The problem, however, is that this is not an all or nothing proposition. At some point, the moral perspectives and actions of others does impact everyone. It is not as if the pragmatic alternative is to remain blind to what others do and then, suddenly, ‘wake up’ at precisely the point where their “morality” impacts you.

What each of us thinks and does, does impact others even if it is to deprive them of mentors and models for appropriate morality. Every thought and act, even those in the privacy of our own homes does affect reality.

Every word spoken and deed done in the cover of darkness will be brought to light.

Jesus said, “Whosoever looks at a woman lustfully” and “everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court.” That means our thoughts and private desires can render us NOT ‘law-abiding’ in the only way that really counts - before the judgement seat of God.

Granted, this does NOT mean that putting people down for their failures and moral lapses is the pragmatic or best way of dealing with others, but, at the same time, it also does NOT mean we are simply to ignore or write them off or condone every behaviour and perspective as if these were as legitimate as any other.

There is a middle ground of speaking the truth and counseling against immoral behaviour and attitudes because even states of mind, as Jesus stated, are grave matters.

Either same sex behaviour is as legitimate as any other or it is not. If it is, then it would be appropriate to “live and let live” because no moral principles are being infringed.

However, if same sex behaviour is decidedly NOT morally appropriate then speaking the truth about that reality is required.

The question becomes a practical one of what ought to be said and how to have the greatest positive effect. If same sex behaviour transgresses the law of God in the same way that looking at women lustfully or being angry with others, and acting on same sex desires make the person liable “before God,” then we do the person no favour by counseling them that they are doing nothing wrong and their actions are no more sinful than smelling roses or petting cats.

Jesus made no qualms about clearly identifying, not just wrong behaviour, but, attitudes and states of mind that required adjustment. He didn’t qualify his words with, “Well it’s really none of my business, so pay no mind to what I just said. Live and let live.”

Either his words were the way to LIFE and ought to be heeded or they were not. We do no one any favours by watering down the message and claiming Jesus’ words merely presented one path, and other paths that incorporate sinful desires can be just as life-giving as the one Jesus recommends.

Why would Jesus speak against states of mind or emotions if he didn’t mean these needed to be ameliorated?

Again, this does not entail our options are either:
  1. tolerate the attitudes and behaviour of others, or
  2. be intolerant of the attitudes and behaviours of others to the point of crusading for eradicating any and all lapses.
The alternative you seem to be ignoring is that we can counsel and instruct in ways that can positively make a difference, beginning with our own attitudes and behaviours.

If we truly love others in the way Jesus asks us to, then we do care about their eternal well-being and would not simply let them destroy themselves and their eternal happiness merely because we rationalize “live and let live” as a kind of benign policy of non-interference.

“You do your thing and I’ll do mine” (aka live and let live) is not creating Christian community nor loving relationships, it is indoctrinating others to believe “every man IS an island onto himself.”

The paradox of Christianity is that the Transcendent is the Immanent. God becomes man. God is three persons in one nature. We are one humanity in God though also individual persons. It is both / and, we are BOTH one AND we are many, not either / or. That is the challenge.

So, if “the couple next door are good people and openly gay,” the alternatives are not merely
  1. accept them, or
  2. cut them off or start a feud or get hot under the collar.
The crux of the issue and the solution to the dilemma is to ask, “What are the alternatives if neither of those are acceptable?”
 
So, if “the couple next door are good people and openly gay,” the alternatives are not merely
  1. accept them, or
  2. cut them off or start a feud or get hot under the collar.
The crux of the issue and the solution to the dilemma is to ask, “What are the alternatives if neither of those are acceptable?”
It speaks volumes that you had to write so much to try to justify your complicated case that I couldn’t quote it and also comment on it without going over the 6 000 character limit.
  1. If I start a thread with just Pope Francis’ live and let live quote in the OP, I doubt you would find any support for your (to me) contrived pedophile meth lab concern.
  2. To me your “Every thought and act, even those in the privacy of our own homes does affect reality” claim is bordering on occult magic or paranoia (not sure which :D).
  3. Your “the judgement seat of God” argument, complicated even by baroque standards, can be replaced with much more simple psychology 101. Jesus is saying that your soul evolves in line with what you feed it. Being unfaithful to your partner in your thoughts has much the same effect on your psyche and your relationship as doing it for real. Dwell on anger and you will become an angry person. Dwell on curtain twitching and obsessing with what others are up to and you will become neurotic. We become like our pets. Pope Francis is using the same line of thought. In order to be happy and relaxed in your soul, you need to cultivate tolerance rather than being constantly uptight about others’ behavior.
  4. You cannot make a positive difference by telling a gay person that she can never bond with another, never have a family life, for no better reason than the weak and convoluted arguments given on this thread. Not only is it highly damaging to her, by dooming her to never being allowed to express her humanity, but a Kingdom of love can never be brought about by punishing or denying love.
Dance upon injustice. Live and let love.
 
Pope Francis is using the same line of thought. In order to be happy and relaxed in your soul, you need to cultivate tolerance rather than being constantly uptight about others’ behavior.
I think you missed the main point of my post.

To sum up…

With regards to the behaviour of others, there are NOT only two options - blithely ignoring it or being constantly uptight about it.

There is a third option - being lovingly concerned about it.

Of course, black and white vision does make one “blind” to the range of colour that lies between. You could start with grayscale as a means of weaning yourself off the simple polarized view you seem to cultivate.
 
The authoritarian, such as perhaps your good self, might argue that Paul’s “what the law requires” is a list of rules discovered by his authority. But I’d argue that means not only is the authority unnecessary (we can discover rules written on our hearts all on our ownsome), the list would necessarily be written in our genes as if in stone, and so the authority is redundant once has deliberated. It makes far more sense imho if “what the law requires” is instead a set of principles by which we (and the authority) determine what is just. Scripture is then alive, not dead.
I’m not sure I can make any sense of this. Do I misread you?

Are you saying that we don’t need preachers to remind us of the law because it is written on our hearts? I would take serious issue with that.

There are ages in which the reign of moral relativism is supreme. When those ages come, the only way to make them go is to hit them hard with the gospels. It would be nice to think the natural law is enough. But when the culture of paganism and hedonism is about all people are exposed to in the media and by their “higher” education, there has to be a countervailing force that wakens people with a jolt as to what they have traded their faith for … a mess of slimy gruel.

Pope Francis has done quite a bit of preaching along this line. I don’t think he has become redundant.
 
TJust realized that from now on I can write “as Pope Francis says, live and let live”.

Glee[sup]4[/sup] :D.
Just curious, where does Pope Francis say this? Can you provide the article?

It doesn’t sound remotely like something a pope would say unless he was talking about some innocuous fault. Was he talking about sodomy? I don’t think so! 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top