Homosexuality and RCIA

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St.Bernardine sum’s up homosexuality perfectly I think. It is a madness that destroys your mind and soul.

"No sin has greater power over the soul than the one of cursed sodomy, which was always detested by all those who lived according to God…… Such passion for undue forms borders on madness. This vice disturbs the intellect, breaks an elevated and generous state of soul, drags great thoughts to petty ones, makes [men] pusillanimous and irascible, obstinate and hardened, servilely soft and incapable of anything. Furthermore, the will, being agitated by the insatiable drive for pleasure, no longer follows reason, but furor…. Someone who lived practicing the vice of sodomy will suffer more pains in Hell than any one else, because this is the worst sin that there is.” St.Bernardine of Siena
 
Deo_Volente said:
Elizabeth, just a word of caution (not an argument!). While kelcca may indeed be courageous and honest, note that he identifies same sex attraction here (and in another thread) with sin.
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And note that I never contradict anyone’s personal experience with what he or she identifies as sin. I understand him, I believe, as explaining the attraction as a temptation toward sin, as signifying something “sinful.” Let’s leave it at that. Many people with similar experiences would agree with him and have done so.
 
kelcca said:
How could same sex attraction not possibly be a sin? Trust me when I notice a guy and have thoughts about him it is sinful, it is against nature and God , it makes no difference if I act on it or not. To look at a man or woman lustfully is sinful. I was not born gay, that is a deception from the devil to confuse people. I chose my bi sexuality because I didn’t know better, because my friends, public school and the music and books I read told me it was ok to have these thoughts and do those actions. I choose homosexuality because I didn’t know Jesus and the truth of the Bible. anyone who things homosexuality is a healthy , normal, happy life style are delusional. I was heavily into the life style it is full of occult, drugs, pornography, depression, mental illness and addictions. I would go as far as saying I do not know one LGBT person who does not show sign’s of mental illness, addiction, and abuse. The Church Fathers and the writingsof the Saints said it was a sin, the Bible say’s it is a sin, if you really love and care for LGBT people the best thing you can do is be honest with them.
For me to continually identify myself as gay or bisexuial is a sin, I am not, I am a child of God, I was made to worship God and have faith in him, not to identify myself by my sin’s and illness.
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Kelcca, Your experience makes for strong emotional reactions. To understand better change the vice and look at it from that point of view. It is not a sin to be an alcoholic. It is a sin to get drunk. You may be tempted to go out and get drunk, but the temptation is not sinful.

Lust is different, because it can be engaged in internally. If a man sees a pretty woman he is naturally attracted to her. He needs to control himself, his eyes and his mind. But it is not sinful that he is a sexually mature human and has an attraction to attractive women.

What the Church says about homosexuality is the act is sinful, but the condition is not. The Church says the condition is intrinsically disordered. Your obligation to your roommate who wants to become Catholic and declares himself homosexual and is active, is to let him know what the Catholic Church teaches. He may already know it. He may not. He may not care what the Church says. He may have been misinformed on what the Church believes on the matter. The catechism is a definitive authority on the faith. Its purpose is to make clear what the Church teaches. You don’t have to get in a debate or argue with him or anyone.

It is not that uncomfortable to ask if he is aware of what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about homosexuality and tell him the numbers of the sections if he is interested in reading it. If he wants to argue with you, you can defer, saying you are not an expert, or a moral theologian, but he might want to do his own research to determine for himself if he wants to join a religion that teaches he is engaged in an egregious evil and needs to repent.
 
Grace & Peace!
Elizabeth502 said:
And note that I never contradict anyone’s personal experience with what he or she identifies as sin.
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That is probably prudent and commendable in many cases.
Elizabeth502 said:
I understand him, I believe, as explaining the attraction as a temptation toward sin, as signifying something “sinful.”
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I think he’s being quite clear that the attraction is not only sinful (i.e., conducive to sin [and we’re walking a very fine line here as it is]) but that it is also in itself a sin. It’s hard to come away with any other reading, particularly given a recent post in which he asks, “How could same sex attraction not possibly be a sin?”
Elizabeth502 said:
Many people with similar experiences would agree with him and have done so.
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Their experience and their agreement are both beside the point if either are leading them to misrepresent or misconstrue the official teaching that same sex attraction is not a sin. You have spoken to me of objectivity and subjectivity in the past. If our subjective experience of the “good” can be called into question (i.e. we should not be persuaded that something is good simply because it appears good or we experience it as good), so too can our subjective experience of “sin,” particularly when that experience clearly leads us into error and/or has the potential to be a stumbling block to others.

I have no dog in this particular fight/thread/discussion and my initial post here was made as a friendly gesture: assuming that you were unaware of what you appeared to be supporting, and knowing that you are a conscientious person, I thought you would appreciate the word of warning.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
VanWA said:
**Then they’re deceiving themselves, and you. Homosexuality isn’t complex, and the feelings don’t just go away, sorry, not for ladies or men. **
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Who are you to state it never goes away? Have you ever sat down with someone who says they used to suffer from ssa and no longer do? You have no right to call them liars.
 
VanWA said:
**:mad:**Wrong.
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I do not know what in particular you believe is wrong about my post.

Here is what is indisputable though. The Catholic Church teaches that all sexual activity outside traditional marriage is sinful. There can be no argument there. You may not agree with the teaching, as many do not, but that is the teaching and always has been from the beginning of the Church and going back to Moses.

Since you were born logical as you claim, there are two options here. The Church is either wrong and always has been, or right. You are free to choose and believe either option.

Whenever anyone engages in any sin there are two possible responses. One is to recognize the wrong doing for what it is and the other is to attempt to justify it. Jesus said to the pharisees that He came for sinners, but they said they had no sin, so they did not need Him. There is nothing He can do for them. The only people He can help, fix, cure, redeem, with His mercy and love are the ones who admit their guilt and ask for mercy.

Indeed you were born to think logically. So was I. We disagree. Logic is failing one of us.

Since you seem to think that being born a certain way makes one not responsible for ones actions, think of a further implication to that assertion.

We are all born with a fallen nature. We are sinners. We do things we should not do, again according to the Catholic faith from the beginning untill now, and according to what we read in the news daily. People do many diverse kinds of evil things.

If the disposition I was born with makes me anger easily, does that mean I can murder someone? If my sexual temprament makes me full of passion for my neighbor and she is not interested, is it ok to rape her? I was born with these desires. You can go through all the vices and capital sins and say the person is born that way, and it might be true, or maybe partially true. Maybe the formation of the person growing up made the person’s violent tendencies uncontrollable.

The question of whether people are born homosexual is not clear. A poster here says he was not born that way, but it was a choice influenced by our sick culture. Nevertheless, there are things that determine what we are from birth. I have brown eyes and white skin and different features determined by inheritance. We have dispositions to athletic ability, intelligence, disease and many other things that we are born with, passeed on to us by our forebears.

How is it possible that the homosexual gene is passed on?
 
grandfather said:
I do not know what in particular you believe is wrong about my post.

Here is what is indisputable though. The Catholic Church teaches that all sexual activity outside traditional marriage is sinful. There can be no argument there. You may not agree with the teaching, as many do not, but that is the teaching and always has been from the beginning of the Church and going back to Moses.

Since you were born logical as you claim, there are two options here. The Church is either wrong and always has been, or right. You are free to choose and believe either option.
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I want to stress that my case here is merely a criticism against an argument, not against a stance.
Logically the Church needn’t have always been right or always been wrong.
Certain teachings are right in some circumstances and wrong in others.

If (hypothetically), the Bible said that everyone should have many children, that would make sense in an agricultural society with a high childhood mortality rate, but would not be as reasonable in an industrialized society, Therefore, it is possible for a teaching to have been right at one point and not be right at another.
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grandfather:
How is it possible that the homosexual gene is passed on?
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Observation of primates have shown that there is an incidence of homosexual males in wild cultures. A theory about this is that, having a small number of non-breeding males increases the group’s survivability by having males whose numbers are not reduce by taking part in the alpha-male fighting, but can still provide for and defend the group’s females.
Thus, having a small incidence of homosexuality could be a beneficial aspect for a species.

Note: I do not claim that this is a proven theory. The first sentence is documented fact. The rest of the paragraph is an unproven theory about it, and I mention it only as a plausible answer to your question.
 
Primates and animals in the wild also eat there young, eat there own feces, murder and rape, It is poor science to “read” human motivations and sentiments into animal behavior, and
Irrational animal behavior is not a yardstick to determine what is morally acceptable behavior for rational man. What’s next transgender animals! Feel free to take your morality from the animal kingdom.I think I will stick to the Bible.
 
Kelcca, the only question I was answering was “how does the homosexuality gene get transmitted.”

That was it.

Nothing you said was relevant to that concept. But thank you for, yet again, letting us know that no matter what anyone says about anything, you think homosexuality is wrong.
 
chrysostim83 said:
Moral relativism strikes again!
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No, that’s not what I said. The context of my remark was the experience of sin, which is precisely how the Church herself explains the process of moral awareness or discernment: a personal consciousness of evil and how the sinner has become injured by it in one’s core.

Moral doctrines are the absolute objective standards; there is no “relativism” involved in that.
 
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