Homosexuality and the Axis of Evil....

[CopticChristian]

So you’re mad that people lobbied for a scientific position now? Isn’t that what you claim to be doing? Just doesn’t make any sense, man.

Lux,

Produce the science that you believe they lobbied for…I am all ears…

 

[CopticChristian]

You can look up the empirical evidence provided by Dr. Evelyn Hooker herself. There was, as always, heated discussion among the psychiatrists and some dissenters, even to the present day. Also check out Dr. Robert Spitzer (of recent controversy), who had spearheaded the change originally, as well as Drs. Gold, Fryer, Spiegel, Marmor, Bieber. Sorry, but you’ll have to do your own research!

Meltz,

If someone procuced a study with 30 men that was contrary to this then they would be yelling…what a small study…how can you conclude anything based on this small study…

Psychologist Evelyn Hooker’s groundbreaking study compared the projective test results from 30 nonpatient homosexual men with those of 30 nonpatient heterosexual men. The study found that experienced psychologists, unaware of whose test results they were interpreting, could not distinguish between the two groups. This study was a serious challenge to the view that homosexuality was always associated with psychopathology.

If you read Nicolosi’s book, he has had over 2000 clients that have gone through successfully. Have you read his work?

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

There is no question that the LGBT have a history and they have a timeline. If they have a history and a timeline, then it ain’t coming to an end anytime soon.

Lots of groups of folks have a history. A quick way of explicating that history is through the use of a timeline. German Americans have a general history that we can express via a timeline. Roman Catholics have a general history that we can express via a timeline.

The folks who share a common history or who can locate their individual histories within a common historical narrative do not always agree with or sympathize with the larger history which nonetheless informs their identity–while their individual history fits within the larger group history, it may not accord or resonate with it in every detail. The German American Bund would be repudiated by most German Americans now–nonetheless, it is a part of German American history. Roman Catholics might distance themselves from the Cadaver Synod or may find the Albigensian Crusade to be particularly un-representative of what it means to be Roman Catholic–nonetheless, these events form a part of Roman Catholic history.

That a group has a history (which may be expressed in a timeline) does not indicate that folks who identify as part of that group identify with all aspects of its history. To an outsider, therefore, a timeline may be a useful summation of general historical currents within a particular group (depending on the perspective of the person compiling the timeline), but it will not be illustrative of the sympathies or specific experiences of the various members of that group. I.e., including the Inquisition on a timeline of Roman Catholic history would not suggest that Roman Catholics are generally Torquemada sympathizers or are big fans of public executions for heresy.

So for a group to have a history is no real indication of anything other than the fact that that group has a history. The fact of a shared history is certainly no indication that there is a vast conspiracy afoot.

But just so we know what and who it is you’re talking about with regard to your conspiracy: to what or whom are you referring when you say “the LGBT”? Is it:

1–All folks who either identify as LGBT and/or would be considered LGBT by others (given their status as same-sex attracted)?
2–A global organization?
3–A multitude of smaller organizations coordinated by a larger organization with international scope and vision?
4–A rhetorical construct or useful fiction?

If you mean option 1, please provide evidence of the involvement of all same-sex attracted folks in your conspiracy.
If you mean option 2, please let us know what the organization might be–URL would be sufficient–and offer proof of their involvement in this specific conspiratorial enterprise. Please offer hard-evidence, not an op-ed, a partisan screed, a book or a brochure.
If you mean option 3, please let us know what those organizations might be, including which organization is the mastermind and proof that all of those organizations are being led in a specific conspiratorial enterprise. Please offer hard-evidence, not an op-ed, a partisan screed, a book or a brochure.
If you mean option 4, just say so.

If none of these options describe what you mean, please let us know what you mean.

Also, in Post #3 of this thread, you wrote:

CopticChristian:

John,

This picks up on your thread on Reparative Therapy…and the science all the disciples of the homosexual/symptathizers promote as science saying it is harmful is balderdash…

No science…none at all…

If we were being reasonable and/or rational, we might say the following: given the studies that have been conducted on both sides of the argument, there are people who have perceived some personal benefit in the Reparative Therapy they have undergone while other people have perceived some personal harm in the Reparative Therapy they have undergone. There is evidence for both.

The question, then, is not whether Reparative Therapy has been perceived by some as beneficial and by others as detrimental (it is a fact that it has been perceived by many as one or the other)–the question is: on what basis can the therapy and the principles which underlie it be said to accurately represent actual medical science and its practice? Again, folks who practice crystal therapy claim to receive a number of benefits. That’s great! It’s just not science. Crystal therapy is still practiced, however, and those who want it will avail themselves of it.

However, a difference between Crystal Therapy and Reparative Therapy is this: Crystal Therapy advocates do not generally go around publically assuming that the definitive question a person with a problem should really be asking is, “Do I choose to be cured by Crystal Therapy or not?” Reparative Therapy advocates, however, seem to regularly assume that the definitive question for anyone experiencing same-sex attraction should be, “Do I choose to be cured by Reparative Therapy or not?” It’s an example of begging the question with regard to the nature of same-sex attraction. It’s like someone looking at a giraffe and saying, “Oh dear–what a misshapen horse! How can we cure it and make it more horse-like?”

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace & Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[DexUK]

Meltz,

If someone procuced a study with 30 men that was contrary to this then they would be yelling…what a small study…how can you conclude anything based on this small study…

If you read Nicolosi’s book, he has had over 2000 clients that have gone through successfully. Have you read his work?

I’d love to do a follow up with all those 2000.

I wonder how many ‘succeeded’ long term?

 

[CopticChristian]

My information is formed by discussing this issue with many real life people who are LGBT. Genuine flesh and blood people, not just pixels on a computer screen.

Not one of them has ever been able to identify any moment where they were anything other than what they are. There has never been an element of choice about their orientation. They have all suffered discrimination in the world because of their orientation. One of them even committed suicide as a result of his inability to deal with the abuse that the world heaped on him as a result of its perception of who and what he was and his inability to change that which he found unchangeable.

You entitle this thread ‘homosexuality and the axis of evil’. You are fairly explicitly calling homosexual people evil. That is a big and bold claim to make in relation to a population of people who are simply homosexually inclined. Any LGBT person reading this will come away, if they accept what you propose, believe that they are evil simply for what they are, howsoever caused.

I will not let you get away with that unchallenged.

There are people on this forum who are lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender. They strive to live within the teachings of the Church by living chaste lives of disinterested friendship with others of the same and opposite genders. They must not be told that they are, in some way, part of an ‘axis of evil’. It is a horrific evil thing to tell someone who is trying their hardest to be good. Is it any wonder that after trying so hard and being told for so long that their orientation is a choice and that such a choice is therefore an act of evil, that they eventually despair so much at having failed to reverse that choice that they give up on the Church entirely? If they’re going to be damned in the next life, they might as well have a peaceful, happy and fulfilling, albeit homosexual, existence in this one.

One of the drawbacks of debating on a computer forum is that it is possible to forget who else is reading the argument. Your words - and mine - are seen by more than just your eyes and mine. We - both of us - have a responsibility to measure what we say against the effects it might have on people who are unknown to us. In every regard, I try to think about those LGBT people who would be discouraged and downhearted by the constant drip-drip-drip of disapproval that comes from those who insist that they either chose their orientation or can change it or that they are suffering from some sort of curable pathology. You won’t ‘cure’ them by arguing that they can be cured. You will simply drive them away from the Church.

The Church is far more than this. It is the enduring eternal merciful love of Christ. It is the balm for the souls of people, all of whom, you and me alike, are sinners. We get nowhere by judging and everywhere by accepting our LGBT brothers and sisters (and those in between) with love and compassion not judgement or condemnation. When we say someone can ‘change’ their orientation we judge them culpable for their condition. If ‘change’ is to come upon them, then it is a change you and the world cannot give… it is the change wrought by the peace of Christ in the heart, as He calms fears and promotes charity of heart not just for the world but for oneself as well. As recipients of that peace and that calm our LGBT friends would feel love for the first time in the arms of the Church, whereas you simply promote trauma and chaos in their hearts by telling them that everything they ever knew about themselves was a lie and their fault if they ‘allow’ it to continue.

Where is your charity?

Dex,

You have proposed that you have science to back up all your claims. Where is it?

You misread the thread. The Axis of Evil is what the UN should be fighting and we have the LGBT lobby group going to the UN to fight Reparative therapy.

Lor’ luv a duck! Thee worry me. Thee tell me yew ‘ave knowledge an’ science ter back up yaaahr knowledge an’ now yew resort ter appeallin’ ter da Left in da Lurch. Know what I mean?

 

[CopticChristian]

I’d love to do a follow up with all those 2000.

I wonder how many ‘succeeded’ long term?

Dex,

Buy his book, read his book, get his journal…I did…

 

[DexUK]

Lor’ luv a duck! Thee worry me. Thee tell me yew ‘ave knowledge an’ science ter back up yaaahr knowledge an’ now yew resort ter appeallin’ ter da Left in da Lurch. Know what I mean?

I’m sorry - are you attempting to ridicule the British accent there?

That seems mighty uncharitable of you. I won’t say what else it borders on.

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Lots of groups of folks have a history. A quick way of explicating that history is through the use of a timeline. German Americans have a general history that we can express via a timeline. Roman Catholics have a general history that we can express via a timeline.

The folks who share a common history or who can locate their individual histories within a common historical narrative do not always agree with or sympathize with the larger history which nonetheless informs their identity–while their individual history fits within the larger group history, it may not accord or resonate with it in every detail. The German American Bund would be repudiated by most German Americans now–nonetheless, it is a part of German American history. Roman Catholics might distance themselves from the Cadaver Synod or may find the Albigensian Crusade to be particularly un-representative of what it means to be Roman Catholic–nonetheless, these events form a part of Roman Catholic history.

That a group has a history (which may be expressed in a timeline) does not indicate that folks who identify as part of that group identify with all aspects of its history. To an outsider, therefore, a timeline may be a useful summation of general historical currents within a particular group (depending on the perspective of the person compiling the timeline), but it will not be illustrative of the sympathies or specific experiences of the various members of that group. I.e., including the Inquisition on a timeline of Roman Catholic history would not suggest that Roman Catholics are generally Torquemada sympathizers or are big fans of public executions for heresy.

So for a group to have a history is no real indication of anything other than the fact that that group has a history. The fact a shared history is certainly no indication that there is a vast conspiracy afoot.

But just so we know what and who it is you’re talking about with regard to your conspiracy: to what or whom are you referring when you say “the LGBT”? Is it:

1–All folks who either identify as LGBT and/or would be considered LGBT by others (given their status as same-sex attracted)?
2–A global organization?
3–A multitude of smaller organizations coordinated by a larger organization with international scope and vision?
4–A rhetorical construct or useful fiction?

If you mean option 1, please provide evidence of the involvement of all same-sex attracted folks in your conspiracy.
If you mean option 2, please let us know what the organization might be–URL would be sufficient–and offer proof of their involvement in this specific conspiratorial enterprise. Please offer hard-evidence, not an op-ed, a partisan screed, a book or a brochure.
If you mean option 3, please let us know what those organizations might be, including which organization is the mastermind and proof that all of those organizations are being led in a specific conspiratorial enterprise. Please offer hard-evidence, not an op-ed, a partisan screed, a book or a brochure.
If you mean option 4, just say so.

If none of these options describe what you mean, please let us know what you mean.

Also, in Post #3 of this thread, you wrote:

If we were being reasonable and/or rational, we might say the following: given the studies that have been conducted on both sides of the argument, there are people who have perceived some personal benefit in the Reparative Therapy they have undergone while other people have perceived some personal harm in the Reparative Therapy they have undergone. There is evidence for both.

The question, then, is not whether Reparative Therapy has been perceived by some as beneficial and by others as detrimental (it is a fact that it has been perceived by many as one or the other)–the question is: on what basis can the therapy and the principles which underlie it be said to accurately represent actual medical science and its practice? Again, folks who practice crystal therapy claim to receive a number of benefits. That’s great! It’s just not science. Crystal therapy is still practiced, however, and those who want it will avail themselves of it.

However, a difference between Crystal Therapy and Reparative Therapy is this: Crystal Therapy advocates do not generally go around publically assuming that the definitive question a person with a problem should really be asking is, “Do I choose to be cured by Crystal Therapy or not?” Reparative Therapy advocates, however, seem to regularly assume that the definitive question for anyone experiencing same-sex attraction should be, “Do I choose to be cured by Reparative Therapy or not?” It’s an example of begging the question with regard to the nature of same-sex attraction. It’s like someone looking at a giraffe and saying, “Oh dear–what a misshapen horse! How can we cure it and make it more horse-like?”

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace & Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

I spent a year with those that believe in Crystal therapy and those that believe that allopathic medicine is voodoo…they have many of the same problems, many of the same concerns and find aid and resolution with many of their problems with Crystals, oils, meditation…and more…so tell me which is more real…the allopathic experience or the alternative medicine experience…both yield results?

A problem is a problem. If a crystal help you stop sucking light bulbs then who are you to criticize.

 

[DexUK]

If a crystal help you stop sucking light bulbs then who are you to criticize.

So quack cures are alright then?

I here on in shall feel free to describe ‘reparative therapy’ as a ‘quack cure’.

That’s good enough for me.

 

[edwest2]

I always find it fascinating, as I’ve noted on other threads, how science is readily endorsed by some when it happens to support their own views, but labeled hogwash, as in the case of evolution, when it runs contrary to them. The nature of science is change, not constancy. Psychiatrists and clinical psychologists used to treat gay people by means of aversion therapy, which was based on Pavlovian conditioning (associative learning). One particular advocate and practitioner of this form of treatment was Dr. Evelyn Hooker (I know, what a name for a sex therapist!). After many years of use, it was eventually found that aversion therapy did NOT transform gay people to straight but instead made them asexual. Thereafter, the therapy was not used. This is but one example of change due to the observation of the effects of a kind of reparative therapy. My point is it is not that ridiculous to see that psychiatrists follow the scientific approach in making their decisions. Now, there is no doubt also a political component to these changes, as science is never totally “pure” as some might believe, but there is nonetheless a scientific protocol that must be followed in making changes to the classifications in the DSM.

With all due respect, please do not use the double-standard card here to deflect from an important SOCIAL ENGINEERING project. That’s all this is.

Science is change? That is pure, 100% unadulterated baloney. I can test gravity all day every day. I know how to throw a ball so that it enters a small hoop many yards away. I don’t need the math. I can observe it.

I am also observing the brainwashing of a planet. HIV/AIDS up 22% according to the CDC. Why don’t homosexuals help their own understand science and behavior?

You don’t need my permission to believe what you want, but I never feared, hated or was uncomfortable around the homosexual persons I’ve worked with.

Peace,
Ed

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Lux,

Produce the science that you believe they lobbied for…I am all ears…

On one side, people who employ pornography, strip shows and verbal abuse to psychologically terrorize people with SSA.

On the other side, the APA.

This is not a tough choice.

edwest2:

I am also observing the brainwashing of a planet. HIV/AIDS up 22% according to the CDC. Why don’t homosexuals help their own understand science and behavior?

“Their own”? What are ‘they’ to you, a different species?

This is the kind of stuff I’m talking about, Ed. This kind of language you are employing is disturbing.

edwest2:

Science is change? That is pure, 100% unadulterated baloney. I can test gravity all day every day. I know how to throw a ball so that it enters a small hoop many yards away. I don’t need the math. I can observe it.

Yes, science is change. Our level of understanding grows and evolves with increased exposure, better studies, etc. For example, Europeans employed the geocentric model until they ultimately adopted the heliocentric model, despite the objections of religious ‘authorities.’

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Mark,

I spent a year with those that believe in Crystal therapy and those that believe that allopathic medicine is voodoo…they have many of the same problems, many of the same concerns and find aid and resolution with many of their problems with Crystals, oils, meditation…and more…

You tell us to reject the APA as an authoritative voice on psychology, then you talk about crystals? I don’t desire to attack your character but this is very much on the fringe and you’re going to need a pile of evidence to overthrow mainstream psychology.

 

[meltzerboy]

With all due respect, please do not use the double-standard card here to deflect from an important SOCIAL ENGINEERING project. That’s all this is.

Science is change? That is pure, 100% unadulterated baloney. I can test gravity all day every day. I know how to throw a ball so that it enters a small hoop many yards away. I don’t need the math. I can observe it.

I am also observing the brainwashing of a planet. HIV/AIDS up 22% according to the CDC. Why don’t homosexuals help their own understand science and behavior?

You don’t need my permission to believe what you want, but I never feared, hated or was uncomfortable around the homosexual persons I’ve worked with.

Peace,
Ed

I’m not the one employing a double standard, defending science when it agrees with my own ideas and knocking it when it disagrees. Neither do I believe science should get involved in trying to answer questions that are inherently not part of its domain of knowledge but more a part of philosophy and theology. Science is indeed based on change, because when new data come to the fore which prior theories cannot explain and incorporate, the theories are revised and then rejected. True, the scientist who formulated the theory often resists change and tries to support the theory, and certain theories stand the test of time better than others, but ALL are subject to revision according to the scientific method. Science, unlike religion, is not a done deal. In fact, neither is religion, according to some.

 

[Kolbe300]

You entitle this thread ‘homosexuality and the axis of evil’. You are fairly explicitly calling homosexual people evil. That is a big and bold claim to make in relation to a population of people who are simply homosexually inclined. Any LGBT person reading this will come away, if they accept what you propose, believe that they are evil simply for what they are, howsoever caused.

I will not let you get away with that unchallenged.

There are people on this forum who are lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender. They strive to live within the teachings of the Church by living chaste lives of disinterested friendship with others of the same and opposite genders. They must not be told that they are, in some way, part of an ‘axis of evil’. It is a horrific evil thing to tell someone who is trying their hardest to be good. Is it any wonder that after trying so hard and being told for so long that their orientation is a choice and that such a choice is therefore an act of evil, that they eventually despair so much at having failed to reverse that choice that they give up on the Church entirely? If they’re going to be damned in the next life, they might as well have a peaceful, happy and fulfilling, albeit homosexual, existence in this one.

One of the drawbacks of debating on a computer forum is that it is possible to forget who else is reading the argument. Your words - and mine - are seen by more than just your eyes and mine. We - both of us - have a responsibility to measure what we say against the effects it might have on people who are unknown to us. In every regard, I try to think about those LGBT people who would be discouraged and downhearted by the constant drip-drip-drip of disapproval that comes from those who insist that they either chose their orientation or can change it or that they are suffering from some sort of curable pathology. You won’t ‘cure’ them by arguing that they can be cured. You will simply drive them away from the Church.

The Church is far more than this. It is the enduring eternal merciful love of Christ. It is the balm for the souls of people, all of whom, you and me alike, are sinners. We get nowhere by judging and everywhere by accepting our LGBT brothers and sisters (and those in between) with love and compassion not judgement or condemnation. When we say someone can ‘change’ their orientation we judge them culpable for their condition. If ‘change’ is to come upon them, then it is a change you and the world cannot give… it is the change wrought by the peace of Christ in the heart, as He calms fears and promotes charity of heart not just for the world but for oneself as well. As recipients of that peace and that calm our LGBT friends would feel love for the first time in the arms of the Church, whereas you simply promote trauma and chaos in their hearts by telling them that everything they ever knew about themselves was a lie and their fault if they ‘allow’ it to continue.

Where is your charity?

Thank you for this, Dex. I, for one, appreciate your tenacity and willingness to stand up for what is right. Your words offer comfort and hope to the LGBT folks who may stumble upon a thread as ridiculous as this one. As a homosexual Catholic, I really do thank you.

I always pray that people who are struggling with faith and homosexuality will find a good Catholic friend, a priest, someone who can help them realize their potential and the real hope that is out there. I also pray they will never stumble upon CAF. But if they do, I’m thankful people like you are willing to stand up for them.

Peace!

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m sorry - are you attempting to ridicule the British accent there?

That seems mighty uncharitable of you. I won’t say what else it borders on.

Dex,

Ya no likin humor…

 

[CopticChristian]

So quack cures are alright then?

I here on in shall feel free to describe ‘reparative therapy’ as a ‘quack cure’.

That’s good enough for me.

Dex,

I am not arguing or stating that anything is cured.

I have the same position on addiction. It is not a disease and there is no such thing as a cure. It is a habit that resolves. Homosexuality in action is behavior, that behavior is associated with thinking and believing…and Meltzer boy will tell you that behaviors and emotions are subject to change.

 

[Kolbe300]

If you read Nicolosi’s book, he has had over 2000 clients that have gone through successfully. Have you read his work?

“Gone through successfully.” What does that mean? 2000 went in homosexual and came out heterosexual? Or 2000 people made it from the beginning of the program to the end of the program?

We can’t accept anything from the APA apparently, nor anyone IN the APA, nor anyone from any major medical association. But we can trust, without question, Dr. Nicolosi. Why? Because you say so. That’s not adding up.

2000 folks went through his program successfully. Okay, where are they and where are their testimonies? Are all 2000 of them in his book? Are they all still 100% heterosexual? I’ve heard enough about Nicolosi. I want to start hearing from these men. If 2000 of them are success stories, there should be HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of great examples. Where can I find those?