Homosexuality, causes and treatment

[GraceDK]

Hi everybody.

I watched this talk today on youtube by Dr. Joseph Nicolosi and I found it really good. I have also read some of his stuff.
I think many Catholics need to educate themselves about this topic and this very professional scolar has some insights from his long studies and helping people who struggle with ssa.

I like his approach… sincerety and respect, scientifially valid methods etc.

youtube.com/watch?v=VjQT4QXBpEQ

by the way… this one is mainly about male homosexuality…

 

[Vouthon]

I personally think that there are a lot of underlying reasons for the homosexual orientation that science just hasn’t figured out yet and probably never will. Human beings cannot be fitted into “categories”; we are the most complex life in the known universe, and we are made in the Image of God and are so wonderfully deep. We cannot be put into boxes.

It is probably a mixture of psychological, environmental and biological factors. The human mind is an extremely complex organ - we still haven’t fathomed it!

I doubt that anybody will ever find a “gay gene”, or indeed a single psychological or environmental factor which causes deep-set homosexual tendencies. Its the interplay between all of these which create a homosexual identity in the mind of the person.

Certainly, having sexual desires for the opposite sex, if this is involuntary isn’t sinful in any way - its just homosexual acts and the homosexual lifestyle.

I’m not sure if homosexuality, as a disposition, can be effectively “treated”. I do believe that some homosexual people have genuinely converted from gay to straight, but it tends I think to happen without “therapy”. Its more of, I don’t know, an “inner” development I suppose - it cannot be forced or effectively influenced from the outside, it has to come from within.

Other people can’t make someone who identifies as gay become “straight”. There is a reason for everything. Only God can effect real change in our lives, with our free-willed support and effort. Perhaps homosexuality is a cross he is willing to let some people bear.

And perhaps others he will help to overcome it.

For some people, homosexual urges seem to go very deep indeed - they are deep-set. This doesn’t mean that these people were “born that way”, but it does mean I think that as they have matured, these disordered emotions have become very deep-set to the extent that they are almost like a defining part of that person’s identity, such that denying it would be denying something very innate to themselves, like denying once’s skin colour, race or gender.

However, some gays have in fact become heterosexual which if anything shows the fluidity of human sexuality, and the fact that we really don’t have as yet a through understanding of the human mind and thought processes.

Its all up to the individual person. If the person is unhappy with his homosexual orientation, then he should strive for the mercy and grace of God; if he is not, then he should embrace his homosexual identity I think but strive for complete celibacy and chastity. Either way what homosexuals need is faith, not therapy.

God does not want any of his children to suffer needlessly. He is the only one who can help them effectively combat homosexual tendencies or remain homosexual but embrace the hardships of celibacy.

One can be homosexual without embracing a depraved homosexual lifestyle. That’s very important to remember. We should never force people to give up a deep set homosexual self-identity if they truly feel that is is innate them as individuals. However if the person freely desires to be released from disordered, homosexual tendencies then we should certainly offer that person support but SPIRITUAL support should be at the fore front.

All shall be well with the Lord.

 

[mitex]

Hi everybody.

I watched this talk today on youtube by Dr. Joseph Nicolosi and I found it really good. I have also read some of his stuff.
I think many Catholics need to educate themselves about this topic and this very professional scolar has some insights from his long studies and helping people who struggle with ssa.

I like his approach… sincerety and respect, scientifially valid methods etc.

youtube.com/watch?v=VjQT4QXBpEQ

by the way… this one is mainly about male homosexuality…

I’m pretty sure the Church is neutral on this kind of stuff. There’s no gurantee it will work and sometimes ex-gay therapy can encourage depression and suicide.

Of course if someone wants to change their sexual orientation I won’t stop them. But I’m pretty sure it’s way better to become celibate and promote chastity than this crazy therapy junk.

Recently two big ex-gays admitted they were homosexuals still. Alan Chambers of Exodus International and John Smid director of Love in Action. It really calls out the falicy that “change” is possible.

 

[mitex]

I personally think that there are a lot of underlying reasons for the homosexual orientation that science just hasn’t figured out yet and probably never will. Human beings cannot be fitted into “categories”; we are the most complex life in the known universe, and we are made in the Image of God and are so wonderfully deep. We cannot be put into boxes.

It is probably a mixture of psychological, environmental and biological factors. The human mind is an extremely complex organ - we still haven’t fathomed it!

I doubt that anybody will ever find a “gay gene”, or indeed a single psychological or environmental factor which causes deep-set homosexual tendencies. Its the interplay between all of these which create a homosexual identity in the mind of the person.

Certainly, having sexual desires for the opposite sex, if this is involuntary isn’t sinful in any way - its just homosexual acts and the homosexual lifestyle.

I’m not sure if homosexuality, as a disposition, can be effectively “treated”. I do believe that some homosexual people have genuinely converted from gay to straight, but it tends I think to happen without “therapy”. Its more of, I don’t know, an “inner” development I suppose - it cannot be forced or effectively influenced from the outside, it has to come from within.

Other people can’t make someone who identifies as gay become “straight”. There is a reason for everything. Only God can effect real change in our lives, with our free-willed support and effort. Perhaps homosexuality is a cross he is willing to let some people bear.

And perhaps others he will help to overcome it.

For some people, homosexual urges seem to go very deep indeed - they are deep-set. This doesn’t mean that these people were “born that way”, but it does mean I think that as they have matured, these disordered emotions have become very deep-set to the extent that they are almost like a defining part of that person’s identity, such that denying it would be denying something very innate to themselves, like denying once’s skin colour, race or gender.

However, some gays have in fact become heterosexual which if anything shows the fluidity of human sexuality, and the fact that we really don’t have as yet a through understanding of the human mind and thought processes.

Its all up to the individual person. If the person is unhappy with his homosexual orientation, then he should strive for the mercy and grace of God; if he is not, then he should embrace his homosexual identity I think but strive for complete celibacy and chastity. Either way what homosexuals need is faith, not therapy.

God does not want any of his children to suffer needlessly. He is the only one who can help them effectively combat homosexual tendencies or remain homosexual but embrace the hardships of celibacy.

One can be homosexual without embracing a depraved homosexual lifestyle. That’s very important to remember. We should never force people to give up a deep set homosexual self-identity if they truly feel that is is innate them as individuals. However if the person freely desires to be released from disordered, homosexual tendencies then we should certainly offer that person support but SPIRITUAL support should be at the fore front.

All shall be well with the Lord.

You said it better than I ever could

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I personally think that there are a lot of underlying reasons for the homosexual orientation that science just hasn’t figured out yet and probably never will. Human beings cannot be fitted into “categories”; we are the most complex life in the known universe, and we are made in the Image of God and are so wonderfully deep. We cannot be put into boxes.

It is probably a mixture of psychological, environmental and biological factors. The human mind is an extremely complex organ - we still haven’t fathomed it!

I doubt that anybody will ever find a “gay gene”, or indeed a single psychological or environmental factor which causes deep-set homosexual tendencies. Its the interplay between all of these which create a homosexual identity in the mind of the person.

Certainly, having sexual desires for the opposite sex, if this is involuntary isn’t sinful in any way - its just homosexual acts and the homosexual lifestyle.

I’m not sure if homosexuality, as a disposition, can be effectively “treated”. I do believe that some homosexual people have genuinely converted from gay to straight, but it tends I think to happen without “therapy”. Its more of, I don’t know, an “inner” development I suppose - it cannot be forced or effectively influenced from the outside, it has to come from within.

Other people can’t make someone who identifies as gay become “straight”. There is a reason for everything. Only God can effect real change in our lives, with our free-willed support and effort. Perhaps homosexuality is a cross he is willing to let some people bear.

And perhaps others he will help to overcome it.

For some people, homosexual urges seem to go very deep indeed - they are deep-set. This doesn’t mean that these people were “born that way”, but it does mean I think that as they have matured, these disordered emotions have become very deep-set to the extent that they are almost like a defining part of that person’s identity, such that denying it would be denying something very innate to themselves, like denying once’s skin colour, race or gender.

However, some gays have in fact become heterosexual which if anything shows the fluidity of human sexuality, and the fact that we really don’t have as yet a through understanding of the human mind and thought processes.

Its all up to the individual person. If the person is unhappy with his homosexual orientation, then he should strive for the mercy and grace of God; if he is not, then he should embrace his homosexual identity I think but strive for complete celibacy and chastity. Either way what homosexuals need is faith, not therapy.

God does not want any of his children to suffer needlessly. He is the only one who can help them effectively combat homosexual tendencies or remain homosexual but embrace the hardships of celibacy.

One can be homosexual without embracing a depraved homosexual lifestyle. That’s very important to remember. We should never force people to give up a deep set homosexual self-identity if they truly feel that is is innate them as individuals. However if the person freely desires to be released from disordered, homosexual tendencies then we should certainly offer that person support but SPIRITUAL support should be at the fore front.

All shall be well with the Lord.

I can tell you what causes homosexual attraction.

The fallen state of man.

The treatment?

The Divine Physician, Jesus Christ.

Thanks.

 

[mitex]

I can tell you what causes homosexual attraction.

The fallen state of man.

The treatment?

The Divine Physician, Jesus Christ.

Thanks.

Biblical explanations are medieval at best and inappropriate. The Church embraces science to tell us some the answers to that we do not know. Although at present no one can agree on the origins of homosexuality.

I suppose you also think the Earth is the center of the universe too right lol?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Biblical explanations are medieval at best and inappropriate. The Church embraces science to tell us some the answers to that we do not know. Although at present no one can agree on the origins of homosexuality.

I suppose you also think the Earth is the center of the universe too right lol?

All moral problems begin with the fall of man. Ya, I also think the earth is flat, too.

Yes, the Church has always embraced faith AND reason. Homosexuality has always been defined by the Church as a moral problem. Show me something different. I dare you. I am willing to bet money that you cannot. This is the problem with modern society, they try to find a scientific explanation to a spiritual problem.

 

[mitex]

All moral problems begin with the fall of man. Ya, I also think the earth is flat, too.

Yes, the Church has always embraced faith AND reason. Homosexuality has always been defined by the Church as a moral problem. Show me something different. I dare you. I am willing to bet money that you cannot. This is the problem with modern society, they try to find a scientific explanation to a spiritual problem.

I am also hesistant to put stock in the so called “Jesus cure” for homosexuality. Protestant Evangelicals have been promoting this for years.

I once again refer you to Alan Chambers and John Smid both prominent Evangelical theologians who claimed to have been cured of their homosexuality through therapy and Jesus Christ.

Well low in behold in the last six months both men admitted they were not only still homosexuals but that they had never seen an actual person healed of homosexuality. And these are men who make their living doing this!

If God heals SSA its probably when a person dies. But I can say that a person who claims to have been cured 100% of their attractions or homosexual identity is probably lying. Reduced? I can believe it can be reduced or supressed. But don’t take stock in anyone who claims to have gone from homosexual to heterosexual.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think we do our homosexual brothers and sisters a grave disservice by perpetuating the idea that change is a “fallacy” and is simply not possible.

Is change easy? No. Is change automatic provided one follows a certain one-size-fits-all path? Probably not. But to say that change is impossible is taking it too far.

 

[mitex]

I think we do our homosexual brothers and sisters a grave disservice by perpetuating the idea that change is a “fallacy” and is simply not possible.

Is change easy? No. Is change automatic provided one follows a certain one-size-fits-all path? Probably not. But to say that change is impossible is taking it too far.

Do you really want to make such promises to a suicidal depressed homosexual teenager who feels that God hates him in every possible way?

Personally when someone’s mental wellbeing is at stake the last thing I’m going to put them through is an “ex-gay” therapy program.

 

[edwest2]

I personally think that there are a lot of underlying reasons for the homosexual orientation that science just hasn’t figured out yet and probably never will. Human beings cannot be fitted into “categories”; we are the most complex life in the known universe, and we are made in the Image of God and are so wonderfully deep. We cannot be put into boxes.

It is probably a mixture of psychological, environmental and biological factors. The human mind is an extremely complex organ - we still haven’t fathomed it!

I doubt that anybody will ever find a “gay gene”, or indeed a single psychological or environmental factor which causes deep-set homosexual tendencies. Its the interplay between all of these which create a homosexual identity in the mind of the person.

Certainly, having sexual desires for the opposite sex, if this is involuntary isn’t sinful in any way - its just homosexual acts and the homosexual lifestyle.

I’m not sure if homosexuality, as a disposition, can be effectively “treated”. I do believe that some homosexual people have genuinely converted from gay to straight, but it tends I think to happen without “therapy”. Its more of, I don’t know, an “inner” development I suppose - it cannot be forced or effectively influenced from the outside, it has to come from within.

Other people can’t make someone who identifies as gay become “straight”. There is a reason for everything. Only God can effect real change in our lives, with our free-willed support and effort. Perhaps homosexuality is a cross he is willing to let some people bear.

And perhaps others he will help to overcome it.

For some people, homosexual urges seem to go very deep indeed - they are deep-set. This doesn’t mean that these people were “born that way”, but it does mean I think that as they have matured, these disordered emotions have become very deep-set to the extent that they are almost like a defining part of that person’s identity, such that denying it would be denying something very innate to themselves, like denying once’s skin colour, race or gender.

However, some gays have in fact become heterosexual which if anything shows the fluidity of human sexuality, and the fact that we really don’t have as yet a through understanding of the human mind and thought processes.

Its all up to the individual person. If the person is unhappy with his homosexual orientation, then he should strive for the mercy and grace of God; if he is not, then he should embrace his homosexual identity I think but strive for complete celibacy and chastity. Either way what homosexuals need is faith, not therapy.

God does not want any of his children to suffer needlessly. He is the only one who can help them effectively combat homosexual tendencies or remain homosexual but embrace the hardships of celibacy.

One can be homosexual without embracing a depraved homosexual lifestyle. That’s very important to remember. We should never force people to give up a deep set homosexual self-identity if they truly feel that is is innate them as individuals. However if the person freely desires to be released from disordered, homosexual tendencies then we should certainly offer that person support but SPIRITUAL support should be at the fore front.

All shall be well with the Lord.

I understand what you’re saying but scientific research into homosexuality and homosexual behavior is ongoing and it is not something we should ignore, and there are homosexual persons who do seek psychological treatment for their homosexual behavior.

We need to have informed answers for two primary reasons: (1) Homosexual persons wishing to adopt must prove to a judge or a duly appointed State agency that they would make good parents. How is this done? They must show, using the latest scientific research, that their homosexual behavior will not harm the development of the child.

(2) Homosexuals persons must prove to a court, using the latest scientific research, that same-sex marriage will not create problems for society as a whole.

Human sexuality is not fluid. It takes two people to perform a sex act involving an exchange of bodily fluids.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Joe_5859]

Do you really want to make such promises to a suicidal depressed homosexual teenager who feels that God hates him in every possible way?

Personally when someone’s mental wellbeing is at stake the last thing I’m going to put them through is an “ex-gay” therapy program.

Do you want to take away his hope that things can be different? To me, that would be more depressing.

I guess I’m just imagining what I would be thinking if I were going through this. I would want to believe that I could work through it. and I would exhaust every possible avenue, no matter how far-fetched.

Certainly, people can criticize Nicolosi for his approach and the basis for his views. And I’m sure that his approach doesn’t work for everyone. But it undoubtedly works for some (else he would have no business). If I were experiencing SSA, I would want to know about such opportunities. That would give me hope.

 

[mitex]

Do you want to take away his hope that things can be different? To me, that would be more depressing.

I guess I’m just imagining what I would be thinking if I were going through this. I would want to believe that I could work through it. and I would exhaust every possible avenue, no matter how far-fetched.

Certainly, people can criticize Nicolosi for his approach and the basis for his views. And I’m sure that his approach doesn’t work for everyone. But it undoubtedly works for some (else he would have no business). If I were experiencing SSA, I would want to know about such opportunities. That would give me hope.

Promising people change only sets them up for failure and despair when no change happens and in the vast majority of cases it doesn’t. Again I refer you to Chambers and Smid both who have now admitted to still having a homosexual orientation.

Personally I feel the church needs to renounce those like Nicolosi who support change efforts.

 

[Joe_5859]

Promising people change only sets them up for failure and despair when no change happens and in the vast majority of cases it doesn’t. Again I refer you to Chambers and Smid both who have now admitted to still having a homosexual orientation.

Personally I feel the church needs to renounce those like Nicolosi who support change efforts.

I refuse to be so cynical regarding a person’s capacity to change.

Simply because you can come up with two anecdotal examples of people who admit to not having changed is not evidence that change is impossible.

I don’t understand the aversion to even entertaining the possibility that change is possible. No one is saying this is a cure-all nor is anyone trying to force people to change. But to dismiss it out of hand is unnecessary.

 

[mitex]

I refuse to be so cynical regarding a person’s capacity to change.

Simply because you can come up with two anecdotal examples of people who admit to not having changed is not evidence that change is impossible.

I don’t understand the aversion to even entertaining the possibility that change is possible. No one is saying this is a cure-all nor is anyone trying to force people to change. But to dismiss it out of hand is unnecessary.

You’ve never been through it so I don’t expect you know what’s its like… And I was hoping to avoid this because now it opens me up to judgement and criticism .

I’ve been through so called “ex-gay” therapy. I became depressed and never experienced freedom like you magically promise. It’s a human rights violation.

 

[Vouthon]

You’ve never been through it so I don’t expect you know what’s its like… And I was hoping to avoid this because now it opens me up to judgement and criticism .

I’ve been through so called “ex-gay” therapy. I became depressed and never experienced freedom like you magically promise. It’s a human rights violation.

My dear Mitex

God Bless and keep you sister/brother. I am sorry, truly, to hear of your negative experiences with “ex-gay” therapy which is one of the reasons why I do not, as a rule, endorse it.

Please freely express your emotions. Never bottle things up. One of the good aspects of an internet forum is the annonymity “factor”. We will never see you face to face or know you on a physical, personal level.

Never feel ashamed. We are your brothers and sisters. We are your family in Christ. We are one body, together, with you in Christ. We would never, ever, judge you.

I agree with an earlier poster that we should take note of recent scientific studies into the origins of homosexuality. Faith and reason must, after all, work closely together.

However as Christians our primary concern is for spiritual welfare.

Whatever homosexuality might be, whatever its cause - it is NOT in any way a barrier to pursuing a truly spiritual life or to salvation. We must always distinction involuntary homosexual urges, which are to be treated like any weakness of the flesh, from sinful homosexual acts.

There are suggestions from some historians that St Aelred was a chaste, celibate homosexual. Certainly Blessed Fr Seraphim Rose, who is currently being investigated in the Orthodox Church for potencial sainthood and whose writings have had a defining influence on my spiritual life, was a homosexual man. He renounced the homosexual lifestyle upon converting to Orthodoxy, and split up with his boyfriend, but he never renounced his sexual orientation. He died, I am led to believe, a holy, chaste, celibate homosexual Christian.

I see that you are in RCIA. I hope that you find the Catholics in your midst to be supportive and compassionate towards you, as the Church bids us.

Holy Mother Church cares deeply for her homosexual children, as she does for all its children.

In the words of Pope Leo XIII:

“The maternal love of the Catholic Church embraces all people” (CATHOLICAE ECCLESIAE;1890)

Much love in Christ

 

[mitex]

My dear Mitex

God Bless and keep you sister/brother. I am sorry, truly, to hear of your negative experiences with “ex-gay” therapy which is one of the reasons why I do not, as a rule, endorse it.

Please freely express your emotions. Never bottle things up. One of the good aspects of an internet forum is the annonymity “factor”. We will never see you face to face or know you on a physical, personal level.

Never feel ashamed. We are your brothers and sisters. We are your family in Christ. We are one body, together, with you in Christ. We would never, ever, judge you.

I agree with an earlier poster that we should take note of recent scientific studies into the origins of homosexuality. Faith and reason must, after all, work closely together.

However as Christians our primary concern is for spiritual welfare.

Whatever homosexuality might be, whatever its cause - it is NOT in any way a barrier to pursuing a truly spiritual life or to salvation. We must always distinction involuntary homosexual urges, which are to be treated like any weakness of the flesh, from sinful homosexual acts.

There are suggestions from some historians that St Aelred was a chaste, celibate homosexual. Certainly Blessed Fr Seraphim Rose, who is currently being investigated in the Orthodox Church for potencial sainthood and whose writings have had a defining influence on my spiritual life, was a homosexual man. He renounced the homosexual lifestyle upon converting to Orthodoxy, and split up with his boyfriend, but he never renounced his sexual orientation. He died, I am led to believe, a holy, chaste, celibate homosexual Christian.

I see that you are in RCIA. I hope that you find the Catholics in your midst to be supportive and compassionate towards you, as the Church bids us.

Holy Mother Church cares deeply for her homosexual children, as she does for all its children.

In the words of Pope Leo XIII:

“The maternal love of the Catholic Church embraces all people” (CATHOLICAE ECCLESIAE;1890)

Much love in Christ

Thanks … Sorry if I offended anyone. This is just a very sensitive topic for me.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I am also hesistant to put stock in the so called “Jesus cure” for homosexuality. Protestant Evangelicals have been promoting this for years.

I once again refer you to Alan Chambers and John Smid both prominent Evangelical theologians who claimed to have been cured of their homosexuality through therapy and Jesus Christ.

Well low in behold in the last six months both men admitted they were not only still homosexuals but that they had never seen an actual person healed of homosexuality. And these are men who make their living doing this!

If God heals SSA its probably when a person dies. But I can say that a person who claims to have been cured 100% of their attractions or homosexual identity is probably lying. Reduced? I can believe it can be reduced or supressed. But don’t take stock in anyone who claims to have gone from homosexual to heterosexual.

While I don’t put alot of stock in the evangelical “Jesus Cure”, I don’t discount it altogether. I mean, if we don’t have faith in Jesus as the source of our spiritual health, who can we?

 

[Joe_5859]

You’ve never been through it so I don’t expect you know what’s its like… And I was hoping to avoid this because now it opens me up to judgement and criticism .

I’ve been through so called “ex-gay” therapy. I became depressed and never experienced freedom like you magically promise. It’s a human rights violation.

I see where you are coming from now. It was not my intent to open you up to judgment and criticism and I sincerely hope that no one here uses this as an opportunity to do either of those things.

My intent was not to magically promise freedom. I stated several times that I do not think such an approach is a cure-all nor is it guaranteed to work the same way for everyone. I should have added that I think it’s important to lay out the facts to anyone who is going through therapy (any kind of therapy) so that they might have realistic expectations as to the end result.

But the fact that someone like Nicolosi has had any success at all catches my attention.

I am sorry that your experience with it was negative. We don’t want to take away hope, but we do not want to give false hope either. I won’t pretend to know how to acheive that balance.

 

[mitex]

While I don’t put alot of stock in the evangelical “Jesus Cure”, I don’t discount it altogether. I mean, if we don’t have faith in Jesus as the source of our spiritual health, who can we?

I’m just saying I never got cured and I’ve got ten other friends who dropped out of the same group that never experienced healing or freedom from homosexuality.

And I don’t see much healing with homosexuality. If anything I came away more broken and more depressed than I was before. I’m sure many other people can attest to that.