Homosexuality in geneology?

[comfort1st]

Silent Knight:
Thank you for emphasising that you believe being homosexual is not a sin. Unfortunately that’s not what I hear from the Roman Catholic Church, and the conservative wing of the Anglo Catholic Church, in Australia.

Jean8:
Sorry to challenge your faith, or your understanding of Scripture, but because someone without our scientific understanding, and without Christ’s teaching about unconditional love, wrote that homosexuality was a sin does not mean that Christ would say the same (I think He would have said homosexual acts were not in the interests of the human response to God’s call), or that we should discard homosexual people.

What we all fail to consider, at times, is that those who are attracted to people of the same gender often face huge trials of conscience when trying to express God’s unconditional love. Let’s imagine ourselves in their shoes. How would we feel or respond? If we consider them “sick” in some way shouldn’t we, as Christ’s followers, be inviting them to the Lord’s Supper? After all, didn’t He come to the sick and the sinner, rather than the righteous? Where is Christ’s compassion in our response to these people who struggle with their orientation but still want to love and be loved?

Steven

 

[Kevin42]

Silent Knight:
Thank you for emphasising that you believe being homosexual is not a sin. Unfortunately that’s not what I hear from the Roman Catholic Church, and the conservative wing of the Anglo Catholic Church, in Australia.

I am not sure what you have heard from Roman Catholic individuals, but the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church makes clear that being homosexual is not a sin and that it is only acts that are sinful.

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

-The Catechism of the Catholic Church

The Church clearly says that it is possible for people with a homosexual orientation to reach Christian perfection and become saints. Ad majorem Dei gloriam!

 

[SilentKnight]

Aloysius,

Those that know me know that I am a big fan of keeping things simple when they are. The reverse is also true. When something is genuinely complicated, I very much dislike people taking simplistic approaches to the subject.

With this an introduction, as far as divine revelation is concerned (and we should all be very much concerned with what God has to say, right?), sexuality is a pretty simple subject. (Even if it is sometimes a very difficult one to live out.) God created man and woman and designed them to desire each other so that pairs of men and women throughout the world would wed and bear fruit (children), thus demonstrating with their lives physically God’s very own life as a complementary Trinity of persons.

Sexuality is a gift of love which, like all gifts, has limits. It has boundaries that we are not to cross. These boundaries are intrinsic to the gift. We violate them at our own peril. And the key is that that peril is not always going to be immediately obvious. I may eat some “bad” food and not know it, not ending up with food poisoning for, say, 24 hours. I may walk through a cloud of radiation and not realize the consequences for many months or years. But they are there.

Your comments, on the other hand, seem to suggest a large degree of relativity to the matter. Perhaps I misunderstand.

It is very simple - regardless of the origins of a homosexual orientation, homosexual activity is intrinsically disordered. Let us not fail to separate the sin from the sinner. If some in your youth failed to do so and condemned and rejected you as a person, I apologize to you on the Christianity’s behalf. That is not the Catholic way. But neither is thinking that homosexual activity is in any way “normative”, or acceptable.

It’s all fine and good to make an emotional appeal to the “violation of my personal experience of uniqueness” and the “unbridled lack of clarity as to how deep a situation such complications inevitably manifest in such concepts” and all that stuff. But take care not obfuscate a very simple core truth: Homosexual activity is completely and entirely morally unacceptable. End of story.

If you are Catholic, you must adhere to this. If you are not, then it doesn’t really matter. Do whatever you want. (Which is not, of course, to say that God will judge you differently and that if you’re not Catholic, it’s ok to be actively gay. I’m just saying that it is seldom a productive exercise to have a conversation with someone who does not accept the same authorities as you.)

Peace,

SK

 

[SilentKnight]

Silent Knight:
Thank you for emphasising that you believe being homosexual is not a sin. Unfortunately that’s not what I hear from the Roman Catholic Church, and the conservative wing of the Anglo Catholic Church, in Australia.

You’re welcome. As Kevin notes above, what I have expressed to you is the real teaching of the Church. Homosexual orientation and homosexual activity are two separate things. The first is not sinful. The second is.

I think it’s harder to separate sin and sinner in this issue than it is for just about all others becuase sexuality is so powerful, for one thing. And for another, it isn’t really so much a choice (like stealing something or choosing to kill someone) as it is a whole “outlook” on life, a whole “orientation” to what it means to be human. I think it’s partly for that reason that when homosexuals hear “homosexual activity is evil”, they just sort of reflexively translate that “you yourself as a person are a disgrace”, when in fact that is not at all the message intended.

In my view, the degree of difficulty that exists in communicating this truth is all the more reason for us to be converted. Now more than ever, God’s grace is necessary in our lives for its own sake, but also to better be able to fulfill the age old commission of loving the sinner and hating the sin. It’s a big challenge and one that we cannot succeed in on our own. But God is always present with his grace to aid those who strive to do what’s right.

May that grace take hold in all of us here in this thread, now and until the day of our final rest.

Peace,

SK

 

[peduzzi89]

I wonder if this argument will ever be solved…because trying to explain to a straight person what it’s like to be gay is like trying to explain to a blind person what blue is - they might be able to appreciate how wonderful it is but they will never truly understand it.

Right now I see a whole bunch of blind people trying to discuss and explain the color blue, saying that those who have seen it don’t really know what they are talking about.

How ridiculous is that…and on that note, the passages that condemn homosexuality in the bible are ambiguous at best and taken out of context…I mean when you start taking the bible at face value and reading every letter literally, you become the Westboro Baptist Church, because, yes, technically everything they say is indeed in the bible.

Not to mention the fact that it’s genealogy, not geneology.

 

[Kevin42]

I wonder if this argument will ever be solved…because trying to explain to a straight person what it’s like to be gay is like trying to explain to a blind person what blue is - they might be able to appreciate how wonderful it is but they will never truly understand it.

Right now I see a whole bunch of blind people trying to discuss and explain the color blue, saying that those who have seen it don’t really know what they are talking about.

How ridiculous is that…and on that note, the passages that condemn homosexuality in the bible are ambiguous at best and taken out of context…I mean when you start taking the bible at face value and reading every letter literally, you become the Westboro Baptist Church, because, yes, technically everything they say is indeed in the bible.

Not to mention the fact that it’s genealogy, not geneology.

Straight people understand sexuality and the wants and desires that accompany it. I would say a more appropriate analogy would be try to describe a picture to a person that could see at one time, but has since gone blind. (Certainly not degrading heterosexuals by calling them blind! Just for the sake of analogy I am using this:thumbsup: .)

I think both homosexuals and heterosexuals need to be patient with those in the Church as we learn how to care better care for homosexuals. This is a learning experience for both sides, and therefore an opportunity for spiritual and intellectual growth. We all though need to be patient with each other and calm in explaining and trying to understand. Truth does not change, but pastoral care for homosexual persons certainly has plenty of room to grow.

And finally, on a side note, the Bible isn’t very ambiguous on homosexual acts unless one tries to make it so.

Pax et bonum.

 

[peduzzi89]

Well, I don’t mean to degrade straight people by calling them blind - I’m not trying to make them lesser in any way - it’s just a very accurate analogy. A person who has gone blind but once saw could still know what the colors look like…my point is that those who have seen blue or know what it’s like to be gay are the ones who know more about the issue than those who don’t, and so I don’t know why no one seems to believe them - people are indeed born this way. Oh and, yes they are ambiguous, unless you choose to ignore the context and original meaning because you rather like what it looks like on the page of the one you read. And with that, bed time. Until tomorrow…

 

[Kevin42]

Well, I don’t mean to degrade straight people by calling them blind - I’m not trying to make them lesser in any way - it’s just a very accurate analogy. A person who has gone blind but once saw could still know what the colors look like…my point is that those who have seen blue or know what it’s like to be gay are the ones who know more about the issue than those who don’t, and so I don’t know why no one seems to believe them - people are indeed born this way.

I agree it is annoying when people who do not struggle with homosexuality seem to tune out what those of us who actually experience it have to say. But like I said, I really think that everyone needs to be patient concerning this issue. I think everyone must admit that there is not much that is definitely known about what causes homosexuality, and that makes it all the more difficult to care for. What we need are more homosexuals who are living in accordance with Church teaching to assist in outreach to other homosexuals. Unfortunately, that is very difficult to come by. Thankfully though, Our Lord is with us always. Glory to God, peace and good.

 

[SilentKnight]

I wonder if this argument will ever be solved…because trying to explain to a straight person what it’s like to be gay is like trying to explain to a blind person what blue is - they might be able to appreciate how wonderful it is but they will never truly understand it.

Do we need to experience rape in order to tell people it’s wrong and not something one wants to experience? Do we need to all be doctors in order to tell people that medicine is helpful?

Right and wrong are not based on personal experiences, fortunately, but on a transcendant and objective reality.

…and on that note, the passages that condemn homosexuality in the bible are ambiguous at best and taken out of context…I mean when you start taking the bible at face value and reading every letter literally, you become the Westboro Baptist Church, because, yes, technically everything they say is indeed in the bible.

Right. One definitely needs to appreciate the hierarchy that exists in truth. There are some truths that are universal and eternal, others that are universal but time-bound, others that are eternal but meant for a specific group of people, still others that are conditional, other truths are simply opinion, and so forth. Which is why it helps to have the teaching authority of the Church, given us by Jesus.

The Scriptures that condemn homosexuality are by no means ambiguous. Romans 1:26-27, for example:

“Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.”

The best one can do is to suggest that the truth expressed here only applied to the people of Jesus’ time, and then attempt to match that with the Church’s Tradition, but the Church’s Tradition says otherwise. When the Bible says what it says above, it means what it says above: That homosexual activity is contrary to human nature.

Homosexual activity is mortally sinful. If you are Catholic (Christian in general - shoot, Muslim, Orthodox Jew and even Buddhist, I believe), you know this to be true. Personal experience has nothing to do with it. (And if it did, what of homosexual Christians that are chaste and believe what the Church does about homosexual activity?)

SK

 

[SCALCO]

I wonder if this argument will ever be solved…because trying to explain to a straight person what it’s like to be gay is like trying to explain to a blind person what blue is - they might be able to appreciate how wonderful it is but they will never truly understand it.

Right now I see a whole bunch of blind people trying to discuss and explain the color blue, saying that those who have seen it don’t really know what they are talking about.

How ridiculous is that…and on that note, the passages that condemn homosexuality in the bible are ambiguous at best and taken out of context…I mean when you start taking the bible at face value and reading every letter literally, you become the Westboro Baptist Church, because, yes, technically everything they say is indeed in the bible.

Not to mention the fact that it’s genealogy, not geneology.

Peduzzi,

It seems that you don’t completely dismiss Catholic teaching and Old & New Testatment teaching against homosexuality.

I can understand how hard it is. One example is people who struggle with the temptation of adultery. They may have to live their whole life fighting this temptation and it may never completely go away. This seems somewhat similar to your experience. Part of faith is perseverance. What eases the burden is hope and faith in Christ.

 

[peduzzi89]

Kevin, I agree with you and I am willing to have patience about those learning about the issue. After all, silent knight, I didn’t say no one else knows anything about homosexuality, I just said that homosexuals are the ones who best know the nature of it and can all attest to the fact that they were always that way.

It’s too bad Kevin, because I get the feeling that most of the gay people you have come by are the stereotypical homosexuals that you see in the media - wild, flamboyant, promiscuous, and throwing it in your face. Because of this, most people don’t realize that most homosexuals are really just like everyone else, except who they fall in love with. It’s because they’re not so “out there” that most people don’t know this. My Uncle’s coworkers didn’t even know he was gay until he brought his partner to the Christmas party. Almost all of the gay people I know are very moral indeed, they are honest, kind, compassionate, caring, and loving.

The passages about it in the New Testament are taken out of context because in Biblical times there was no concept of homosexuality as there is today - like the people I just described above. People in monogamous, loving, committed, not lustful relationships that are like any other man and woman couple except for their gender - like almost all the gay people I know (and that’s a lot). The Bible really doesn’t comment on this type of relationship. What it does comment on are male prostitutes, men who have sex with young boys, and those who lust after each other (of any gender).

What I don’t understand, is why people seem to inflate the gravity of the sin (if you agree it is such) - it is mentioned 5 or 6 times in the bible (like I said, ambiguously at best) - not that we should ignore it, but Jesus never even said a word about it, yet there are so many other things that he mentions countless times that most Christians have simply chosen to ignore - like divorce - talk about redefining marriage. People say gay marriage will redefine it…which it would, but my my my the fact that marriage has ceased to be a binding lifelong commitment (we may say the words but it really isn’t if you can get divorced for any reason) is the biggest redefinition we will ever see…but few ever seem to be hyped up on that - most just simply accept that it is an out-of-date rule that doesn’t apply to today’s world. Yet we try and use Levitical code, the brutal raping of Sodom and Gomorrah, and references to prostitution, pedophilia, and promiscuity to try and condemn an entire demographic of people who are like all of us here - moral, loving, God-fearing, and committed, and want all the same things - a relationship, love, marriage, a house, 3 kids, a dogs, and a 2-car garage.

Me and my 2 closest buddies at school who will be my roommates next year, are all gay, and all catholic. We have all had a struggle in the past but have all come to terms with the fact that we can be ourselves and still live Christian lives.

I am always trying to recruit my gay friends back into at least some sort of Christian church, explaining that being gay and Christians are not mutually exclusive. I am also always explaining to fellow Catholics everything I just said in an effort to unify, rather than separate us all, and to try and spread a little compassion, understanding, and love.

So I am asking, try and open yourselves up to new ideas, because I am really just like all of you, probably fewer differences than the next guy I pass on the street.

God Bless

 

[SirOscar]

It’s too bad Kevin, because I get the feeling that most of the gay people you have come by are the stereotypical homosexuals that you see in the media - wild, flamboyant, promiscuous, and throwing it in your face. Because of this, most people don’t realize that most homosexuals are really just like everyone else, except who they fall in love with. It’s because they’re not so “out there” that most people don’t know this. My Uncle’s coworkers didn’t even know he was gay until he brought his partner to the Christmas party. Almost all of the gay people I know are very moral indeed, they are honest, kind, compassionate, caring, and loving

Unfortunately, this is entirely true. They fear what cannot be understood. If one does not know any gay couples, (which they probably do, but don’t know it), they can only go by what they see in the media or what people tell them.

It is a struggle for gay people. I am not gay, but I my brother is, and my nephew is. One thing my brother said to me, that I will never forget, is “I am just like everyone else, I wish to give love, and I wish to be loved”

I am also always explaining to fellow Catholics everything I just said in an effort to unify, rather than separate us all, and to try and spread a little compassion, understanding, and love.

Thank you!

 

[peduzzi89]

No problem

 

[jean8]

I am certainly not trying to “outwit God”

All I said is that many things go wrong in the embryonic development of a baby. God does not MAKE horrible birth defects to happen. They just happen as part of nature as someone else said.

As far as homosexuality, we can debate the cause til the end of time. The reality is that it happens in humans as it does in some animals.

People afflicted with same sex attraction do not have a choice of who they are attracted to. When sexual attraction starts, one does not think to themselves “Hmmm, I think I will deviate from the norm and like the same sex”, or “I think I will rebel agaist God, and like the same sex because I love sin.”

When you reached the age of sexual attraction, did you discern which sex you might prefer? Did you make of list of pros & cons and then decide? No, there was something inside of you that made you attracted to the opposite sex.

The same hold true for the homosexual

One does not choose homosexuality or heterosexuality… it is something that is out of our control.

However one can **control their actions **to their attraction:

1. One can choose to live a celebate life in accordance with God’s law by not acting upon their attraction. One may slip up from time to time, as we all have the tendency to sin.
2. One can choose to diregard God’s laws and live a gay lifestyle, or if they are heterosexual, just live together as man & wife without getting married.
3. One can choose marriage in accordance to God’s law of love & marriage.

oscar,
Yes, we can choose. If we choose to sin then we will certainly reap the woes. won’t we.
Remember what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah.
The gay lifestyle isn’t any worse that two people living together outside of marriage. Sin is sin.

God bless,
jean8

 

[jean8]

Well, I don’t mean to degrade straight people by calling them blind - I’m not trying to make them lesser in any way - it’s just a very accurate analogy. A person who has gone blind but once saw could still know what the colors look like…my point is that those who have seen blue or know what it’s like to be gay are the ones who know more about the issue than those who don’t, and so I don’t know why no one seems to believe them - people are indeed born this way. Oh and, yes they are ambiguous, unless you choose to ignore the context and original meaning because you rather like what it looks like on the page of the one you read. And with that, bed time. Until tomorrow…

peduzzi,
Are you saying God created this sin in certain people? That means your putting the blame of their chose to live in sin on the Lord. it’s all His fault?
A person can’t choose to be blind, but being homosexual is a chosen lifestyle.

jean8

 

[jean8]

Unfortunately, this is entirely true. They fear what cannot be understood. If one does not know any gay couples, (which they probably do, but don’t know it), they can only go by what they see in the media or what people tell them.

It is a struggle for gay people. I am not gay, but I my brother is, and my nephew is. One thing my brother said to me, that I will never forget, is “I am just like everyone else, I wish to give love, and I wish to be loved”

Thank you!

oscar,
Did you tell your brother what the Bible teaches about this isn? Is he a christian?
No, your brother isn’t like everyone else. He’s a homosexual.
Rom.1:25-32 “they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshjiped and served things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised.”
Read the next verses to 32 if your interested in the truth.

God bless,
jean8

 

[peduzzi89]

Jean,

I am a roman catholic, and I know the bible quite well. Did you read my most recent long passage? Because it explains quite a lot including what you commented on in my previous one. Is there anything specific in there you would like to refute?

And I am like everyone else, like you, and siroscar - a sinner.

I think you are missing the forest for the trees.

 

[ljahns]

No. It isn’t easy telling people in situations like these that what they’re doing is not ok. Sexuality is a powerful element of human life. It’s not like telling people not to steal. But, precisely for that reason, we must be unflinching in our testimony to how to exercise sexuality properly, so that is gives life instead of death and oppression. Exactly how we go about doing this is necessarily going to vary in most instances.

I have a cousin and a friend that are both gay. And I live in Seattle (any questions, or do we already know what that means? ) They both know where I stand - that homosexual activity is unacceptable, and that I love them both.

On the other side of the fence, I used to work with two gay women who found out that I was a “church-goer” and then had it confirmed for them later that I was against homosexual behavior.

After that, we continued to speak with each other ammicably, the issue never coming up explicitly. If we had spent a little more time together than we did, it may have. Both women likely held to their orientation because of abusive pasts (one had been married to a [male] “jerk” for nine years before connecting with this other gay woman who had an abusive past). Because of this, I knew the direct explicit approach was not the right one. Instead, I chose the more passive “be kind”/“let your light shine” approach with both of them, which, I know, gave more more credibility with these two than I would have had otherwise.

SK

This conversation has led to a lot of soul searching on my part. I’ve prayed over the last couple of days, read the CCC and Bible. This is very difficult, but I must admit that you are right. I believe in our Holy Mother Church. If I believe in Her then I must believe implicitly as God will not let Her err.

 

[Formosus]

SSA,(same sex attraction) whether genetic, biological, or environmental is still a disordered state.

From what I have read, it would seem there are multiple factors that lead more towards a genetic basis mixed with environmental factors (too much hormones in the womb, not enough hormones, hormones recieved too late, etc, incorrect packing/unpacking of genes, and environmental factors encountered early within life). I think very very very few people actually choose to have these attractions (please let us separate homosexual from those that suffer SSA). One chooses to be Homosexual (aka chooses to accept and gives in to their disordered state). One does not choose to have same sex attraction and to say otherwise is just ignorant and hurtful to those that suffer from SSA.

 

[Nate415]

I think one of the most informative discourses in the New Testament about this issue is Jesus’ discussion of marriage and divorce from Matthew 19 1-12.

Jesus reaffirms the nature of the sacrament of marriage, its permanence and then, when his disciples question this teaching about whether it is good then to get married if it will be for life - “He answered, 'Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom that is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.” Matthew 19 11&12 NAB

In the more literal translations, Jesus actually refers to “some” as eunuchs, those incapable of marriage.

I think what Jesus is saying here is that not all are to marry, not all are even meant to marry. In fact - there are some born that way, unable to marry (eunuchs).

Now, I think this category includes a lot of people (approximately 50% here in the US, right), but it almost certainly refers to homosexuals as well - some who are unable to marry by their very nature from the womb.