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truagape
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I noticed that. Do you mind answering my question though?
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SilentKnight
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Then why did you say, “Since you want to connect 1 Cor. to Romans…”?
What question? Where in Romans in the word arsenokoite?
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pathia
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peduzzi89
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Ah. Well the girlfriend thing is this: I would venture to say that most people who are gay have at some point in their lives dated someone of the opposite sex in an attempt to fit in and because that is what society tells us we’re supposed to do. Me included. I dated a girl for 2 years. I thought I was so in love with her and was going to marry her. In the mean time, I prayed, every day, about my attraction to men, because I felt like something just wasn’t right. And then, all of a sudden, into my life came a boy, that I fell in love with. And I realized immediately that it was the real thing. We never actually had a physical relationship, but I knew right away this was the kind of special love that all of my male friends felt for their girlfriends, but I never totally understood. I also knew that I couldnt subject that girl any longer to a love that wasn’t really what she thought it was. She is now my best friend. I know none of you would believe this, but I felt God that summer. I finally felt at peace with Him, like he had led me to my true self, the one he created, instead of the fake image I was putting up. In any case, the reason I brought it up in the first place was to refute the idea that gay people had been rejected by women, in case that wasn’t clear. I would venture to suggest a similar situation for your coworker - she didn’t “become” a lesbian - she finally came to terms with it. About the bible. The fact that you are quoting the RSV kind of emphasizes my point, because it is “revised”. The closest we can get to the original is the KJV, which is the most widely used and the one that most go to on debatable subjects. The KJV uses the words “burned” and “lust” instead, which wouldn’t be all homosexuals, again. Jesus also condemned heterosexual lust in his sermon on the mount, so you couldn’t really coincide a romantic relationship with lust. As for Leviticus, how do we know which rules to follow and which we don’t have to? (I know what the Catholic teaching says - I’m just talking about the Bible.) Leviticus 11:12 says “Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.” There we have abomination again. Do you see what I’m saying. Again, I’m not attacking the validity of the entire Bible, just saying we can’t take it at face value. Also, I want to make it clear that I resent the implication that being openly gay is selfish. It’s not just because it “feels good” it’s because it feels like the life I was meant to live. Before I felt I was at odds with God now I feel one with Him.
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Kevin42
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I just want to second you and say that my journey has been similar to yours. I have had two girlfriends (and I still have girls who I know are attracted to me). However, it was not until I began dating my friend John that I truly understood the love that “normal” heterosexuals feel for each other.
And before anyone gets the wrong idea, we have decided to live chastely and celibate, while still being a part of each others life. We really do bring out the best in one another and we really want to grow in our love of Christ together. It has really been a great journey and it is wonderful to see how God can bring some good out of the predicament of being attracted to the same-sex.
Peduzzi, I know that we are in different places, but I will pray for you and I hope you will pray for me, that we both sincerely seek and continually come to a greater understanding of truth. Pax et bonum.
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peduzzi89
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Kevin, thank you for your prayers and you will be in mine. I’m glad you have found the life that God meant for you to live.
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truagape
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Below (in bold) is the section of your post I was referring to when I gave you the answers that I did.
***Here’s the deal…
In the RSV (one of the most literal renderings of Scripture available), in 1 Tim 1:10, the English word used is “sodomites”, which we might - because of conventional usage - be tempted to translate “homosexuals” in general. There is good reason to believe, however, that the reference here to “sodomites” is specifically to those who make use of male prostitutes. Yes.
In 1 Cor. 6:9, the word used in the RSV is “homosexuals”…much less wiggle room. But I’m gonna give this one to you too, just 'cause. It’s free. Let’s pretend it to is actually a reference to men who, say, engage in orgies.
When we back up and take a look at Romans 1:26-27, we start to see something different. Rather than labels for homosexuals, we start seeing a description of the behavior itself. Romans does not say that, “God gave ‘sodomites’ up to their dishonorable passions.”***
In your last paragraph you say “we start to see something different”. This is where you appear to be explicitly disconnecting the Romans passage from the one in Corinthians. So I told you that I noticed it. But then, the very next sentence says "rather than labels for homosexuals… " What do you mean “rather than”? I thought you said 1 Cor. “was free”, that, “you were gonna give this one to us” not that the original language itself dosen’t already do that. And given the first two paragrahs that preceed it, the impression that I got was that you were essentially attempting to contrast two different sides of the same coin; implicitly going right back to connecting the Romans passage with the one in Corinthians indirectly giving the RSV’s translation of “homosexuals” a false sense of validation. Hence my remark about you “connecting the two”.
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truagape
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Yes. "Where in Romans 1 is the word “arsenokoite(s) used?”
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truagape
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You do realize, however, that the same word “arsenokoite(s)” is being translated in both Corinthians and Timothy, right? Also what about the very first sentence in your post namely: "In the RSV (one of the most literal renderings of Scripture available), in 1 Tim 1:10, the English word used is "sodomites…" Taken at face value, are you aware that it contradicts itself?
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truagape
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Kevin and Peduzzi89, I wish each of you all of the happiness and joy that defines the God who is love!
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SilentKnight
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You’re not the only one (here or in other venues) who has described their homosexual relationship as non-physical. That’s very interesting to me.
Again, as one who does believe that biology plays*** a*** role in this (to what extent we’re not sure yet), I also tend to believe that homosexual orientations stem from…how to say it…a psycho-emotional/physiological deficiency or imbalance in terms of what it means to be a man (or woman - will stick with just men in this case to make the wording easier). Enter another man whom the homosexual finds “attractive” and an unconscious part of the attraction is that the partner acts as a psychological “stablizer”, or “sounding board”, a “mirror” some might say, in much the same way a woman that a man finds attractive acts as a “stabilizer” to him…Ugh…The limitations of words…
… The classic line from movies is, “You complete me.”They key difference is that women and men really do “complete” each other in heterosexual relationships. (We see this even physically where “rod A” fits into “slot B”, if you follow me.) Whereas in homosexual relationships, one man “completes” the other, but as a man, (in some way that is difficult to put into words and which varies in its specifics for every individual - but which all comes down to what this parenthetical remark is couched in) not, in contrast with the other, as a communion of persons like the Trinity. And so, in this way, the material relationship may be real, but the transcendant meaning of it and the legitimacy of it as a romantic communion of persons is not.
Already out of time. Back in a while with more…
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truagape
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When the bible speaks about the marriage of Christ and his church, which “rod A” is fitting into what “slot B”?
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8eofilos
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There is no reason judging gay people. I am 100% heterosexual and against gay but that does not make me shut my friends out of my life even if they are gay as long as they don’t interfere with my beliefs and ideals and morals. I have written about this before in some other forum but I won’t hesitate to write again. Of course it is a choice but not mine. So let God be the judge of that choice BUT, if you attack the concept of marriage I will fight back. Marriage is not a contract but a union of Man and Woman for continuation of there life in to new life. Prove me wrong, can two gay continue their life? Do they have any future? How can people argue that this is not a anomaly when it doesn’t follow nature? Nature keeps multiplying…gay don’t. Now don’t give me no stupid answer like…they can adopt because even if they are allowed(which I totally disagree giving a child to 2 people of the same sex) it will not be their continuation since it is not their DNA…I can write a whole book of why being gay is being self destructive and not logical
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warriorofpeace
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that sounds all find and dandy lets start global war so the population gets to be satisfactory or is the death penalty for one individual going to solve population control. i prepose a deleation of this mabby other posts there going no where real fast
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peduzzi89
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Silent Knight, that is an interesting theory on where homosexuality comes from, but who knows if that is true. I think calling homosexual relationships things like “material” once again refers to them as being selfish. I’m not totally understanding your explanation as to why the romantic sense of homosexual relationships are not legitimate. So I guess all I can do is to maintain my opinion that they are because I have seen it. As for the anatomy, I understand that rod A fits slot B, but that’s not the only way it can work…As for 8eofilos…this should be interesting. I am already prepared to take issue with several of the statements made in your little paragraph, but I am dying to know, where do you get the ideas for your potential “book”. Please, I would love to hear your ideas about gays and gay marriage, please do expound on all your ideas.
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jcrichton
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…can’t remember the correct spelling… the guy’s name is something like Freud or Froid–he’s purported to be the “it” in psychobabble… convinced the world that all problems originate in early childhood and that “your mom” had something to do with it… once his disciples reached into the courtrooms and established their religion (yeah, it’s a cult but organized) society swears by them (check the news: “we must understand…”). Since the Church refused to accept homosexuality as a norm they orchestrated the phenomenon of genetic precondition (or some sort of mumbo jumbo) of homosexuality tendencies–curiously, this only happens in cycles which accompany cultural decadence.Let it first be known that I am completely against homosexuality. And that I don’t care what anyone says there is no such thing as gay marriage, maybe gay rings and gay sexual interaction but they are not presenting themselves under God so it is not a real matrimony.
My question is what is all the nonsense that I am hearing about people being born homosexual? I believe that this Bible verse would prove that it is completely not true.
“The Lord God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man, the man said: This one at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this one shall be called woman, for out of her man this one has been taken. That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become on body. --Genesis 2:22-24”
I got that out of a Catholic Teen Bible. And then I go hearing things about animals being homosexuals too and I really want to know what in the world all of this stuff (nonsense) is about.
Please and Thank You
You cited what became Jesus’ reply when speaking against the wanton practice of wholesale divorce in Israel:
4 Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, made them male and female? And he said: 5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. 6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. (St. Matthew 19:4-6)
Jesus left no room for “God made me “x”…”
Maran atha!
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truagape
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Is that all you think marriage is?
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pathia
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Except it happens in reality all the time. I am living proof. Whether or not God willed it, or it happened because of the fallen state of our world, people are born without a sex, or with both. God could have stopped that from happening to me, but he let it happen. Why? He chose to let these birth defects happen, and they have happened in all recorded history. I have been brutalized, assaulted, mocked, spat on, fired, shamed, shunned, asked to leave church, and even had someone attempted rape. All were done by Christians in a twisted view of their faith.
I would have a perfectly normal life if it wasn’t for the Christians!
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SilentKnight
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SCALCO
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If you disagree with the Catholic Church about homosexuality, it ultimately will come down to authority and the source and root of the teaching, just as it does for any other issue. Some homosexuals think it’s wrong and some heterosexuals think it’s right, and vice versa. There are multiple interpretations, just like other issues, but only one is correct. Catholics believe the Church can never teach error. So, rather than debate the teaching itself, the debate should center around authority, at least when the Catholic Church is involved.
If a roof is leaking water, would you put a bucket down to catch the water thinking that would solve the problem or would you direct your attention to the hole in the roof? I’m not implying that the Catholic Church needs to be fixed, rather that ones energy should first be focused on understanding where the authority is derived, then everything else will fall into place.
If a roof is leaking water, would you put a bucket down to catch the water thinking that would solve the problem or would you direct your attention to the hole in the roof? I’m not implying that the Catholic Church needs to be fixed, rather that ones energy should first be focused on understanding where the authority is derived, then everything else will fall into place.
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