Homosexuality--Why the Arguments and Theories Don't Matter

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Valentino,

How could inclination to celibacy be a sign of maladjustment? We know that most of the time God calls His priests from a pool of men who are already called to celibacy. Same for friars, monks, sisters, and nuns.
I should say there are some people that are considered mentally deficient do to childhood abuse of some kind.Maybe the little girl was sexually abused by her father or boy abused by an uncle.In such cases they fear sexual intimacy when they get older and the are inclined to celibacy.After I examined the question I can see that I wasn’t interpreting the word celibacy correctly.I see now that “the inclination to celibacy” is meant differently than the way I answered.i read post to fast and responded without much thought.
 
Got it. So you’re saying that while some people are called to celibacy by God, others may be leaning in that direction as a result of difficult/hirrible past experiences?

I can totally agree with and understand that! We know that people sometimes react to relational trauma by either by shutting down or becoming promiscuous, and while neither may be entirely healthy, obviously celibacy is the safer and healthier option.
 
michelleds, I also commend your courage and convictions to search for and stand for truth.

I just wanted to ask about how your former beliefs must have conflicted with your professional life as a prosecutor. What kind of society would we have if every possible behavior could be excused because:
  1. I claim I was born that way
  2. I felt like doing it
  3. I make all my own decisions about right and wrong. Who are you to say I am wrong?
 
Pope Benedict:

Let us dwell on only two points. The first is the journey towards “the maturity of Christ”, as the Italian text says, simplifying it slightly. More precisely, in accordance with the Greek text, we should speak of the “measure of the fullness of Christ” that we are called to attain if we are to be true adults in the faith. We must not remain children in faith, in the condition of minors. And what does it mean to be children in faith? St Paul answers: it means being “tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine” (Eph 4: 14). This description is very timely!

How many winds of doctrine have we known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking. The small boat of the thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves - flung from one extreme to another: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism and so forth. Every day new sects spring up, and what St Paul says about human deception and the trickery that strives to entice people into error (cf. Eph 4: 14) comes true.

Today, having a clear faith based on the Creed of the Church is often labeled as fundamentalism. Whereas relativism, that is, letting oneself be “tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine”, seems the only attitude that can cope with modern times. We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one’s own ego and desires.

We, however, have a different goal: the Son of God, the true man. He is the measure of true humanism. An “adult” faith is not a faith that follows the trends of fashion and the latest novelty; a mature adult faith is deeply rooted in friendship with Christ. It is this friendship that opens us up to all that is good and gives us a criterion by which to distinguish the true from the false, and deceipt from truth.

We must develop this adult faith; we must guide the flock of Christ to this faith. And it is this faith - only faith - that creates unity and is fulfilled in love.

(Vatican translation)

Peace,
Ed
 
Michelleds, my dear sister in Christ – welcome home!!!

I am also 43, and I also spent many, many years identifying as a lesbian. I did the whole marching in parades, performing in “courageous” theatrical productions, arguing how I was “born this way” and couldn’t possibly change, giving my time and money to furthering the cause of “justice.” 😦

I thank God everyday that through His grace, He brought me back to my senses and back to His Church! I am that prodigal daughter who caused a huge party in heaven – and so are you! :extrahappy:

My son is only seven years old, so my past is pretty much a secret to all but a few close friends. Perhaps in the future, Our Lord may open to the door to my going a little more public about my past and the power of God’s grace. In the present, I am constantly in prayer and making sacrifices for all the people I knew in the LGBTT community for all those years. May God have mercy on all our souls.

God bless you, dear sister in Christ. I will keep you in my prayers as well!

Gertie
 
Science is advancing, and almost weekly I hear of advances being made in medicine. Last week it was news of a drug that may help at least a minority of those who suffer with cystic fibrosis.

I am confident that science will find by direct research or otherwise even stumble on the reasons for an individual’s sexual orientation, based in body chemistry, undoubtedly in the brain. there simply has to be a physical explanation for a condition which the majority of victims did not choose, etc. We should pray and ask God that the ‘cure’ will be given to us, sooner rather than later.

We who believe in the obvious unnaturalness of homosexuality and even in its immorality will have much to be thankful for when such insights lead to relief for the victims of this condition. How much sinfulness in the world could possibly come to end when therapy is available.

I don’t think that every sin necessarily reduces to an uncontrollable physical condition, like same-sex attraction. Such a belief would lead one to deny the existence of evil in the world, for example.

When the milestone of treatment and cure is achieved, then we get to the words in the title, that the arguments and theories don’t matter.
 
Got it. So you’re saying that while some people are called to celibacy by God, others may be leaning in that direction as a result of difficult/hirrible past experiences?

I can totally agree with and understand that! We know that people sometimes react to relational trauma by either by shutting down or becoming promiscuous, and while neither may be entirely healthy, obviously celibacy is the safer and healthier option.
thanks for making that clear.i have a hard time expressing myself in words.
 
Science is advancing, and almost weekly I hear of advances being made in medicine. Last week it was news of a drug that may help at least a minority of those who suffer with cystic fibrosis.

I am confident that science will find by direct research or otherwise even stumble on the reasons for an individual’s sexual orientation, based in body chemistry, undoubtedly in the brain. there simply has to be a physical explanation for a condition which the majority of victims did not choose, etc. We should pray and ask God that the ‘cure’ will be given to us, sooner rather than later.

We who believe in the obvious unnaturalness of homosexuality and even in its immorality will have much to be thankful for when such insights lead to relief for the victims of this condition. How much sinfulness in the world could possibly come to end when therapy is available.

I don’t think that every sin necessarily reduces to an uncontrollable physical condition, like same-sex attraction. Such a belief would lead one to deny the existence of evil in the world, for example.

When the milestone of treatment and cure is achieved, then we get to the words in the title, that the arguments and theories don’t matter.
They is a component to man which science tries to overlook.Lets say scientists find some genetic defect which is common to most or all homosexuals.They don’t consider the fact that maybe the homosexual caused that defect.They eliminate the mind and concentrate on the brain.The mind is not something which can be measured or studied.It has no nerves ,no energy which can be measured.Its untouchable.Its an invisible,spiritual element.There are medicines which do change imbalances caused by sin (i’m speaking mostly about the mental illness drugs)and may help a person get over the depression or schzitophrenic behaviors(mostly by blocking out those sensory cells which holds memory)so a person can move positively.Science is good.But there are quite a few that think everything that is man can be discovered by studying him scientifically through medical practices.
 
Awesome post, OP.

One question, though----------------

You say your parents kicked you out because they felt you caused your father’s blindness?:confused:
 
as for the ships sailing and “better to have lived and loved than to never have loved at all”—well, I’ll just continue to stand on that whole eternity in Hell thing. 😉
What brought me to the Catholic Church? that, my friends, is an interesting story. My priest and I laughingly just call the twists and turns and circumstances that brought me to the Church a mystery of God and leave it at that. 🙂
Hi Michelle, I appreciate your posts. Thanks 👍

You have a good way with words. You are able to relate that which is very serious in a way that indicates you have accepted the past and are moving forward with a pleasant attitude. I look forward to more posts from you 🙂

And yes - God does have a way of bringing us to Him. It sometimes makes me think that all of the trials and mistakes were necessary for me to get here.
 
Awesome post, OP.

One question, though----------------

You say your parents kicked you out because they felt you caused your father’s blindness?:confused:
Unfortunately, altho not the cause of the blindness, but the cause of not being healed by God. There is a belief that the whole family must be without sin and be filled with the fullness of faith in order for one member of the family to receive healing. Therefore, if there’s no healing, there must be sin. Since my brother was only 9, and my parents knew they weren’t the reason he wasn’t being healed…that just left me!
 
My motivation, Grace, is exactly what I said in my post. There is no hidden motivation on my part to convert the OP to my way of thinking, let alone my religion, nor to engage her or anyone else in a discussion on homosexuality. I pointed out my belief only to show that despite my own feeling on the issue, I still think she is a courageous person and admire her conviction as a person and as a Catholic believer. BTW, Judaism does believe in life after death (see the thread on that very issue). Also Judaism (at least Orthodox Judaism) does not approve of homosexual behavior. My opinion is my own. As to the other thread, if that is the one you’re referring to, the OP was an active homosexual to begin with and comfortable with their lifestyle. Was there another “Ask me Anything” thread on which I posted my opinion on the issue? I don’t recall. However, if I have unintentionally upset the OP, I sincerely apologize. I also sincerely apologize to you since evidently I have upset you.
Nicely put. 👍
 
My reading has given me an interesting insight into Judaism, regarding homosexuality and really many other things.

What’s written in Leviticus, let’s say, about it being abominable for a man to lie with a man, there are some segments of Judaism that say this command applies only to Jews, because the context is all the things that God prohibits the Israelites.

This discussion leads into what Judaism considers binding on Gentiles, and that is the Noahide covenant, which we don’t find in scripture explicitly. The idea is that there must have been some covenant that the people on earth grossly violated, to result in the condemnation and destruction by the waters of the flood.

You can find this via an internet search. This code of laws is just a guess by the ancient rabbis and sages. It so happens that it also includes a prohibition of homosexuality. But, curiously, something so important is missing from the canon of scripture.

I’d like an opinion from someone who may have studied the issue, if in the NT, Paul exempts Gentiles from the requirements of “the law” – but why? Is it because he believes on the basis of his Judaism that Gentiles are already exempt from the requirements of the law? or, is there no such premise, and the exemption is based on, for example, his reasoning in Romans (I think it is) about the redemptive work of Christ? The latter seems to stand on its own, IMHO. e.g. circumcision, required by the Abrahamic covenant and the Sinaitic covenants,but not by the new covenant in Christ’s blood.
 
I am a bisexual man who was gay for about 40 years of my life. I am now married to a woman raising 4 children. I still am attracted to men, but I feel no compunction to act on that attraction. I have been faithful to my wife for 10 years. Though a sexual preference change had occurred in me, I am sensitive to the natural preferences that may appear in my children. I tell them I will love them whether they are attracted to the opposite sex or same sex. I teach them that sex is an expression of love between 2 adults in a committed relationship. They can always approach me about their sexuality. Nothing will keep me from loving them.

I am sorry that your father treated you that way. I’m sure your relationships may have been fleeting or less than what your dreams led you to believe. Because the American culture doesn’t raise boys and girls to be mature gay adults, they tend to become immature and promiscuous adults. This doesn’t make the attraction any less real.

God created you and loves you as you are. Others that love you are reflections of God’s love. I don’t know if any of my children will be gay, but I’m ready to embrace them and teach them to love themselves. I am sorry that you feel that you must deny yourself the beautiful expression of love between 2 women. I will pray that you come to accept what God has called you forth to be.
 
Hi Michelleds,

Thank you for your post, you gave me hope. I have a teenager son who just recently told us he is gay. We are showing him love and respect because we know it is hard for him and he did not chose to feel that way. He said he felt it since grade school. He knows it is a sin when he act on the attraction. He is starting to be annoyed with me for constantly preacing to make the right choice, and continued moral talk. We dont want to drive him away from our family and church, but I am afraid he is looking for outside support because we are not giving it to him and he buying into it. I’m so afraid we are going to loose him if we don’t guide him into the right direction.
 
Hi Michelleds,

Thank you for your post, you gave me hope. I have a teenager son who just recently told us he is gay. We are showing him love and respect because we know it is hard for him and he did not chose to feel that way. He said he felt it since grade school. He knows it is a sin when he act on the attraction. He is starting to be annoyed with me for constantly preacing to make the right choice, and continued moral talk. We dont want to drive him away from our family and church, but I am afraid he is looking for outside support because we are not giving it to him and he buying into it. I’m so afraid we are going to loose him if we don’t guide him into the right direction.
Is it better to be right or is it better to love? As parents I believe it is better to love, especially when it comes to our children. We love them and protect them when they are children. As adults, we love them, but we cannot really protect them from what life has to teach them. Support him, tell him you will always be here to love him, but please don’t drive your son away. Agree to disagree.

And the greatest of these is love.
 
Grace & Peace!

Michelle, I admire your convictions and wish you only good things in your continued walk with Our Lord. However, as a Christian who also happens to be gay, I think your 4 conclusions are anything but conclusive. I hope you’ll welcome this discussion of them. And I hope you’ll also enter into the discussion knowing that I’m not trying to change your mind, only offering a different perspective. I respect your position, though I clearly disagree with it. Here’s why:
  1. God calls EVERYONE to celibacy. For some that will be a lifelong celibacy; for others, it will be until they find their husband or wife and get married. For some married folks, they might have to re-enter a time of celibacy due to illness or other issues. Someone is obviously called to lifelong celibacy if they are called to the religious life, but also if they do not ever get married, for whatever reason. “Inclination” has very little to do with the calling, any more than “inclination” has anything to do with whether you should hit your neighbor over the head.
I think you’ll find that not even the Roman catechism agrees here. The universal call is to chastity, not celibacy. There is a difference, and while subtle, it’s significant. Celibacy describes a habit of behavior. Chastity is a disposition of the will. You can be celibate and yet sin against chastity. You can be chaste, but not celibate (as most married couples are). Moreover, celibacy is not a degree of chastity, but just a possible manifestation of the commitment to chastity, and one that is not necessarily good for all men at all times.

The Roman catechism understands chastity to be reflective, in part, of the complete integration of a person’s sexuality. It understands it in this way because it sees sexuality as key to an individual’s capacity for healthy and good human relationships. Being chaste is a way of describing a way of being in the right and appropriate loving relationship with everyone around us.

To insist on celibacy over chastity appears to prejudice a forensic view of sanctification–if we behave properly, we will change. That may be true in some circumstances and in some traditions (Confucianism seems to advocate this way), but it doesn’t leave much room for grace as understood in Christianity.

There are enough difficulties with trying to make the catechism’s view of homosexuality as a disorder jive with it’s understanding of chastity (i.e., if homosexuality represents an objectively disordered sexuality, can it be said that chastity in the sense of right relationship is even possible for a homosexual if their relational capacity is fundamentally broken?), that prejudicing celibacy over chastity serves to exacerbate an idea of Christianity that is less about life-giving grace and more about appearances of virtue, or appearing to follow the letter of the law.
  1. Having same-sex attraction is a cross. Jesus was pretty clear about taking up your cross and following Him. Didn’t say anything at all about how you feel about it, whether it’s fair, or if you’d rather of had cancer or alcoholism as your cross.
Perhaps, but not necessarily in the way you suggest. Christ’s saying that we must take up our cross occurs within the context of his announcement that he will suffer at the hands of the religious and social powers that be. He states to his disciples that he will be an outcast, and, moreover, that he is casting his lot with the outcasts of the world by consenting to suffer the death of an outcast. He is saying that he will occupy the space of the scapegoat, and it will be revealed that he will make that particular spiritual (and social) desert into a place running with living water. And he tells his disciples that this is their role, too: to identify with the outcast, like he does. To take up the cross. To follow him.

In this sense, taking up the cross describes not an accident of nature or nurture which we would like to indulge but shouldn’t–it describes where we are called to position ourselves in relation to the powers (of the world) that be: the outside, the marginal, the exile, the criminal, the light in the darkness against which the darkness rages. When Jesus tells the healed Gerasene demoniac that he must return to his people and cannot come with him, Jesus is saying to him, “take up the cross–go into the place of exile that your world has made for you, and show them that I have made that place a place of healing. Show them that exile, now, has no meaning. Show them that they can no longer use your misfortune as a way of understanding themselves as fortune, your insanity as a way of being sane, and that if they wish to use you as a scapegoat and outcast once again, that they will find me, the Lord of Life, already occupying that position and making it fruitful.”

In this alternative understanding, homosexuality is not a cross to bear. But attitudes toward homosexuals could represent a cross that a homosexual must bear–and we, as Christians, are called to bear it with them.

[CONTINUED…]
 
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