Homosexuality

[PrincessKatrina]

Wicca is a neopagan religion based on nature worship. It is NOT of God.
There is only ONE way to heaven and that is through our Lord Jesus Christ - NOT paganism. To hold this belief is to pervert the Gospel.

Christian-Wiccan =/= Wiccan

We use the tag “-Wiccan” to indicate our belief in magic, not to indicate we worship God’s creation. We honor his creation, but we worship God. We who are Christian-Wiccan agree that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, and while we believe in the power of magic (fueled by God the Father), we do not believe in paganism.

HUH??
You’re confusing deadly sin mentioned in 1 John 5:16-17 with sin against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-29) which is final impenitence.
That’s why in the Mosaic Law some sins called for death and some called for lesser punishments.

I’m afraid you’re the one who’s confused.

God is eternal and whatever was an abomination to him thousands of years ago is STILL an abomination to him and always will be.

Then you must uphold his commands regarding shellfish and the like as well, because what was an abomination to him in the Old Testament must still be an abomination to him now.

Rom. 1:26–28, 32 says:
“For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. . . . Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them”.

You’re playing games with the truth here. This is speaking of homosexual sin.
Are you honestly trying to say that male homosexual sex (explicitly spoken of here) is wrong but NOT female homosexual sex? Is that what you’re trying to make us believe?

No, I’m saying that the two instances of sin listed there are merely examples of what they were doing in their indiscriminate lustful sex. They were exhibiting actual sexual promiscuity in that they were having sex with anyone they desired regardless of anything other than basic desire to have sex with something, having multiple partners, etc. Homosexuality does not inherently mean promiscuous behavior. Most of us believe in monogamy just as solidly as most hetero couples do.

The Bible says homosexual acts only make you unclean? Well, Revelation 21:27 says that nothing unclean will enter Heaven.

And Christ’s death and resurrection washes clean any who accept the Lord’s gift of salvation, regardless of overall behavior.

“For it is by grace we are saved, and not by works, that no man may boast.” ~Ephesians 2:8

 

[Pax]

Try starting with verse 24.

“Therefore God also gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed to the ages, Amen.”

The people were lusting after the creation of God. They were lusting for physical pleasure, of any kind, indiscriminately.

Verses 26 and 27 are the "such as . . . " verses. They are the “etc., etc., etc.” They are merely examples of how they were performing indiscriminate sexual acts.

Also, the only other mention of “unnatural acts” for women that I have found in the Bible are in the Old Testament where it speaks of bestiality. Based on this, it is my understanding that the women referred to in Romans 1 were performing acts of bestiality, not acts of homosexuality.

Your interpretation is not how this passage is to be understood. You may want it to mean that, but it clearly does not. Please notice where I have emphasized in verse 26-27 below::

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, **and the men likewise **gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error

.

The connection in describing what women exchanged is connected and defined by the term “likewise” in describing what the men exchanged. Moreover, it would make no sense whatsoever to say that in one instance sex acts between women are natural, but sex acts between men would not be. What is a serious sin for a woman in this instance is a serious sin for men in this instance and vice versa. The passage could not be more clear and it has always been understood that way. No modern day twisting of scripture will undo its true message.

 

[PrincessKatrina]

Your interpretation is not how this passage is to be understood. You may want it to mean that, but it clearly does not. Please notice where I have emphasized in verse 26-27 below::

.

The connection in describing what women exchanged is connected and defined by the term “likewise” in describing what the men exchanged. Moreover, it would make no sense whatsoever to say that in one instance sex acts between women are natural, but sex acts between men would not be. What is a serious sin for a woman in this instance is a serious sin for men in this instance and vice versa. The passage could not be more clear and it has always been understood that way. No modern day twisting of scripture will undo its true message.

All that likewise means is that both men and women gave up natural relations. It in no way indicates that the new behaviors exhibiting in their lust were identical.

 

[elvisman]

Christian-Wiccan =/= Wiccan

We use the tag “-Wiccan” to indicate our belief in magic, not to indicate we worship God’s creation. We honor his creation, but we worship God. We who are Christian-Wiccan agree that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, and while we believe in the power of magic (fueled by God the Father), we do not believe in paganism.

Magic, soothsaying, wizardry is all spoken against in Scripture. How could you possibly call yourself a Christian and at the same time go against Christian teachings?

I’m afraid you’re the one who’s confused.

Then prove it.

Then you must uphold his commands regarding shellfish and the like as well, because what was an abomination to him in the Old Testament must still be an abomination to him now.

WRONG. You don’t know your bible.
In Acts 10:11-16, God shows Peter that all things are good to eat and lifts the dietary restrictions. Do your homework.

No, I’m saying that the two instances of sin listed there are merely examples of what they were doing in their indiscriminate lustful sex. They were exhibiting actual sexual promiscuity in that they were having sex with anyone they desired regardless of anything other than basic desire to have sex with something, having multiple partners, etc. Homosexuality does not inherently mean promiscuous behavior. Most of us believe in monogamy just as solidly as most hetero couples do.

You’re DEAD wrong here. It speaks explicitly of HOMOSEXUAL sex. It speaks if what an abomination it is to engage in HOMOSEXUAL sex.
You’re living in denial.

And Christ’s death and resurrection washes clean any who accept the Lord’s gift of salvation, regardless of overall behavior.

“For it is by grace we are saved, and not by works, that no man may boast.” ~Ephesians 2:8

WRONG.
**Again - you don’t know your Bible. **
Deliberately living in sin AFTER knowing the Lord’s grace is a death sentence:

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”**

2 Peter 2:26-27
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven”.

 

[PrincessKatrina]

Magic, soothsaying, wizardry is all spoken against in Scripture. How could you possibly call yourself a Christian and at the same time go against Christian teachings?

I can’t speak for all Christian-Wiccans, but I personally do not believe it appropriate to practice the arts of divination. The only divination I accept is the Lord’s Gift of Prophecy, which I am not blessed with. I’ll also say it now, among Christian-Wiccans the art of necromancy is expressly forbidden. That means no attempts at raising the dead or communicating with the dead. If anything, Catholics practice more necromancy than we do, since you pray to long dead “saints.”

Now, several things you need to realize. First off, the term “magic” is an ambiguous term. What is magic to one person is merely how things work to another. Our modern technology would’ve been perceived as magic a mere 150 years ago.

Now, yes, the Bible speaks against the practices of witchcraft. It specifically speaks against the aforementioned practices of divination and necromancy.

However, what is the difference between “witchcraft” (excluding those former two) and miracles performed in God’s name? The only difference is the source of the power.

It is our belief that witchcraft was advised against in the Bible because when opening one’s self up as a conduit for such power, one opens one’s self up for an increased chance of deception. It is not something for those weak in faith or spirit to attempt. Some of us, however, feel called by God to be conduits for His power. It is our Vocation, much like the prophets of the Old Testament, who performed Miracles in God’s name.

 

[PrincessKatrina]

WRONG. You don’t know your bible.
In Acts 10:11-16, God shows Peter that all things are good to eat and lifts the dietary restrictions. Do your homework.

Exactly my point. Things do not necessarily remain an abomination forever. Just because it was an abomination in the Old Testament does not mean it is still an abomination. That status can change!

 

[elvisman]

I can’t speak for all Christian-Wiccans, but I personally do not believe it appropriate to practice the arts of divination. The only divination I accept is the Lord’s Gift of Prophecy, which I am not blessed with. I’ll also say it now, among Christian-Wiccans the art of necromancy is expressly forbidden. That means no attempts at raising the dead or communicating with the dead. If anything, Catholics practice more necromancy than we do, since you pray to long dead “saints.”

Now, several things you need to realize. First off, the term “magic” is an ambiguous term. What is magic to one person is merely how things work to another. Our modern technology would’ve been perceived as magic a mere 150 years ago.

Now, yes, the Bible speaks against the practices of witchcraft. It specifically speaks against the aforementioned practices of divination and necromancy.

However, what is the difference between “witchcraft” (excluding those former two) and miracles performed in God’s name? The only difference is the source of the power.

It is our belief that witchcraft was advised against in the Bible because when opening one’s self up as a conduit for such power, one opens one’s self up for an increased chance of deception. It is not something for those weak in faith or spirit to attempt. Some of us, however, feel called by God to be conduits for His power. It is our Vocation, much like the prophets of the Old Testament, who performed Miracles in God’s name.

Man - you are doing some pretty sloppy acrobatics with the Scriptures.

First of all the Catholic Church does not, never has and never will practice or condone necromancy.
**What is forbidden in scripture in regards to this is attempting to get information from the dead. We Catholics ask for the prayerful intercession of those in heaven - who are FAR more alive than you or I. **

You wrongly attibute the term, “dead saints” to these members of the Body of christ. Jesus tells us about God in Mark 12:27:
"He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled." **

You simply don’t understand the Scriptures and are a moral relativist.
You can continue to play your games but magic – in ALL its forms is strictly warned against in Scripture.

Leviticus 19:31, Lev. 20:6
Deuteronomy 18:10-13
Isaiah 8:19-20
Isaiah 47:13-14
Galatians 5:19-21**
***Matthew 7:20-23 * (This one in particular speaks to people like you who don’t fully trust in God’s way but make up your own way of doing things)
"Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. … Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
**
**

 

[elvisman]

Exactly my point. Things do not necessarily remain an abomination forever. Just because it was an abomination in the Old Testament does not mean it is still an abomination. That status can change!

Show me in Scripture where the abomination of the homosexual act was deemed to no longer be an abomination before God.

I showed you where it speaks of the dietary restrictions being lifted - show me where homosexual acts are deemed to be okay.
You can’t because it’s not taught in Scripture.

 

[PrincessKatrina]

Man - you are doing some pretty sloppy acrobatics with the Scriptures.

First of all the Catholic Church does not, never has and never will practice or condone necromancy.
**What is forbidden in scripture in regards to this is attempting to get information from the dead. We Catholics ask for the prayerful intercession of those in heaven - who are FAR more alive than you or I. **

You wrongly attibute the term, “dead saints” to these members of the Body of christ. Jesus tells us about God in Mark 12:27:
"He is* not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled."*

You simply don’t understand the Scriptures and are a moral relativist.
You can continue to play your games but magic – in ALL its forms is strictly warned against in Scripture.

Leviticus 19:31, Lev. 20:6
Deuteronomy 18:10-13
Isaiah 8:19-20
Isaiah 47:13-14
Galatians 5:19-21**
****Matthew 7:20-23 *** (This one in particular speaks to people like *you who don’t fully trust in God’s way but make up your own way of doing things)
"Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. … Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
**
**

In Revelation, we are told that we will not have our new Life until after the Second Coming of Christ. The Saints you pray to are currently dead and you are practicing necromancy when you pray to them.

 

[elvisman]

In Revelation, we are told that we will not have our new Life until after the Second Coming of Christ. The Saints you pray to are currently dead and you are practicing necromancy when you pray to them.

**So you now believe in the heresy of soul sleep? **
The Transfiguration was PROOF that they are not dead.

We have new life at Baptism John 3:3-7.
Again - you are perverting the Scriptures.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Not to be rude, but you were being a little harsh, mostly every Christian picks and choose everything. I mean everything about Christianity is pick and choose. That’s why we have so many denominations. And who are you to tell me what my beliefs are? I guess everyone will always have different opinions and beliefs about things, but as Christians we should love one another as we love ourselves. Here I am telling people what to do, LOL. Well, to love is what Jesus told me to do. I love you all and thank-you for responding to my post.

stephendcml, just so you are aware, elvisman was not responding to you, but responding to kall’s first post to you.

 

[PrincessKatrina]

Show me in Scripture where the abomination of the homosexual act was deemed to no longer be an abomination before God.

I showed you where it speaks of the dietary restrictions being lifted - show me where homosexual acts are deemed to be okay.
You can’t because it’s not taught in Scripture.

God was only capable of making changes 2000 years ago? He can’t make changes in the here and now?

 

[elvisman]

God was only capable of making changes 2000 years ago? He can’t make changes in the here and now?

Show me where/when he made this change.

**Look - you are playing games to justify your lifestyle. Ain’t gonna work because God DOESN’T change. **The dietary and ritual laws of the Old Law were abolished because they were FULFILLED by Jesus.

Jesus NEVER abolished the moral law because that never changes. It is just as wrong to kill, steal, covet, commit adultery/homosexual fornication, etc., as it always was. There is NO getting around it no matter how much you want to rationalize the truth.

 

[prodigal-sun]

Show me where/when he made this change.

Look - you are playing games to justify your lifestyle. Ain’t gonna work because God DOESN’T change. The dietary and ritual laws of the Old Law were abolished because they were FULFILLED by Jesus.

**Jesus NEVER **abolished the moral law because that never changes. It is just as wrong to kill, steal, covet, commit adultery/homosexual fornication, etc., as it always was. There is NO getting around it no matter how much you want to rationalize the truth.

AMEN!!!

 

[PrincessKatrina]

Show me where/when he made this change.

Look - you are playing games to justify your lifestyle. Ain’t gonna work because God DOESN’T change. The dietary and ritual laws of the Old Law were abolished because they were FULFILLED by Jesus.

**Jesus NEVER **abolished the moral law because that never changes. It is just as wrong to kill, steal, covet, commit adultery/homosexual fornication, etc., as it always was. There is NO getting around it no matter how much you want to rationalize the truth.

How was the dietary law fulfilled by Jesus? The dietary laws were put in place for health reasons, because pork is extremely unhealthy if not cooked right. Same is true of shellfish and other similar foods. Overtime, it became possible to ensure that such foods were prepared in a way that would not be harmful, thus there was no longer any need to forbid the consumption of such foods.

Only Anal Sex between men was condemned in the Law of Moses, and that is another instance of something that was, at the time, very very unhealthy because there was no way to protect against disease (which is now very possible, thus nullifying the issue).

 

[elvisman]

How was the dietary law fulfilled by Jesus? The dietary laws were put in place for health reasons, because pork is extremely unhealthy if not cooked right. Same is true of shellfish and other similar foods. Overtime, it became possible to ensure that such foods were prepared in a way that would not be harmful, thus there was no longer any need to forbid the consumption of such foods.

Only Anal Sex between men was condemned in the Law of Moses, and that is another instance of something that was, at the time, very very unhealthy because there was no way to protect against disease (which is now very possible, thus nullifying the issue).

Again - you don’t understand the scriptures.

You can eat raw shellfish and raw crustaceans and not get sick.
The dietary laws were DISCIPLINARY. They were not set in place because the foods were inherently evil - as homosexual sex is evil. Working on the Sabbath - even lighting a fire to cook - was a disciplinary law. Nothing inherently evil about that either - and strict adherence to this law was abolished and nailed to the cross. Jesus said that "the Sabbath was made for man - not man for the Sabbath."

---

NOWHERE in ALL of Scripture is an evil act EVER deemed okay after time. God doesn’t just change his mind about evil - humans do.

You call yourself a “Wiccan-Christian” who thinks that homosexual sex is not an abomination before God.
You are a walking contradiction.

 

[PrincessKatrina]

You call yourself a "Wiccan-Christian" who thinks that homosexual sex is not an abomination before God.
You are a walking contradiction.

No, I call myself a Christian-Wiccan, and there is nothing contradictory about that if you were to actually read what I have said.

 

[elvisman]

No, I call myself a Christian-Wiccan, and there is nothing contradictory about that if you were to actually read what I have said.

It’s as offensive to God and contradictory as if you were to call yourself a “devout-Christian abortionist”.

 

[Sarah_Angel]

elvisman, why are you attacking Katrina for her “Christian-Wiccan” ways in the Homosexuality thread? Certainly this isn’t the place for it. I don’t agree with it (just like I don’t agree with Protestantism), but we should be talking about homosexuality. Besides, it’s hard to take you seriously, even if/when you’re right, when you speak in bolded multi-colors.

The first page and a half of this thread was so good, so enlightening, it really interests me to see the Catholic perspective of homosexuality because it is so entirely different from both the ‘liberal’ perspective (“Come out of the closet and live how YOU want because YOU are in charge of your life and not God!”) and the ‘fundamental’ perspective (“If you’re gay then you’re going to Hell!”).

It must be very difficult for homosexuals to live life, but while they have a particularly unique cross to bear, it’s important to remember that we all suffer and we all sin. It’s just a different cross for everyone. Some sins are graver than others in that some cut us off from Christ more significantly, but as long as we return to Christ and promise ourselves to Him daily, anyone can live as a witness to Christ Himself.

 

[elvisman]

elvisman, why are you attacking Katrina for her “Christian-Wiccan” ways in the Homosexuality thread? Certainly this isn’t the place for it. I don’t agree with it (just like I don’t agree with Protestantism), but we should be talking about homosexuality. Besides, it’s hard to take you seriously, even if/when you’re right, when you speak in bolded multi-colors.

The first page and a half of this thread was so good, so enlightening, it really interests me to see the Catholic perspective of homosexuality because it is so entirely different from both the ‘liberal’ perspective (“Come out of the closet and live how YOU want because YOU are in charge of your life and not God!”) and the ‘fundamental’ perspective (“If you’re gay then you’re going to Hell!”).

It must be very difficult for homosexuals to live life, but while they have a particularly unique cross to bear, it’s important to remember that we all suffer and we all sin. It’s just a different cross for everyone. Some sins are graver than others in that some cut us off from Christ more significantly, but as long as we return to Christ and promise ourselves to Him daily, anyone can live as a witness to Christ Himself.

Go back and read the posts and you’ll see why this came up.
It all has to do with the thread about homosexuality and how her relativism regarding the contradictory beliefs of Wicca and Christianity come into play.

PS - If you don’t like the colors - don’t read the post. It’s that simple.