C
Cable
Guest
Unless we’re friends, I wouldn’t necessarily be interested to know another person’s preference. If we’re friends, then I’d treat him/her like a friend
- Status
J
justamoose89
Guest
Both the Bible and the Church are extremely clear on homosexuality. The act of engaging in homosexual relations is wrong without exception. Those who struggle with homosexual desires are no less of a person than the rest of us.
This is the way I see it: There are people in the world who struggle with infidelity more than others. There are people in the world who struggle with pornography more than others. There are people in the world who struggle with gambling more than others, etc. Homosexuality is just one of those sins that some people struggle with, and as Catholics, we need to be praying for them every chance we get.
p.s. I have a friend who is an AMAZING man of God that struggles with homosexual desires. He knows God’s word though, and does not sin by succumbing to these desires. He tells me that he believes that these desires that he has are a result of some sort of spirit over his life, and that it is possible to find healing (due to the fact that someone he knows found healing). I’m not sure if I believe that, but hey maybe its true.
This is the way I see it: There are people in the world who struggle with infidelity more than others. There are people in the world who struggle with pornography more than others. There are people in the world who struggle with gambling more than others, etc. Homosexuality is just one of those sins that some people struggle with, and as Catholics, we need to be praying for them every chance we get.
p.s. I have a friend who is an AMAZING man of God that struggles with homosexual desires. He knows God’s word though, and does not sin by succumbing to these desires. He tells me that he believes that these desires that he has are a result of some sort of spirit over his life, and that it is possible to find healing (due to the fact that someone he knows found healing). I’m not sure if I believe that, but hey maybe its true.
L
LCMS_No_More
Guest
According to the teachings of the Catholic Church, no. They are still human being created in the image of God with all the dignity that goes along with that.
In practice, though…
Absolutely! Homosexual persons do not have any meaningful vocation that leaves a legacy (i.e., priest/religious who help to save souls through obvious means or married who have kids and propagate the faith by teaching their children) and are to sit-down-and-shut-up about their presence in the Church and if a person is discovered to be same-sex attracted, they are to be shunned and ostracized.
As a person who is same-sex attracted, this is my perception of what Catholic people think about homosexual persons. To be honest, I loathe, hate, despise and abhor my same-sex attractions and would do almost anything to get rid of them. If there was a means that would guarantee that I would wake up other-sex attracted (i.e., NORMAL), I would take it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, that doesn’t exist and God doesn’t seem to bein the business of healing people with SSA issues. For some reason, it seems as though he’d rather leave people like me twisting in the wind to suffer the loneliness, isolation and self-hatred that is at the core of same-sex attractions.
D
defenderoftruth
Guest
Unfortunately, that doesn’t exist and God doesn’t seem to bein the business of healing people with SSA issues. For some reason, it seems as though he’d rather leave people like me twisting in the wind to suffer the loneliness, isolation and self-hatred that is at the core of same-sex attractions.
I completely disagree, some have been healed of their SSA. Your comments seem very bitter and angry towards God on this and I would suggest prayer for understanding.
I completely disagree, some have been healed of their SSA. Your comments seem very bitter and angry towards God on this and I would suggest prayer for understanding.
L
LCMS_No_More
Guest
How perceptive. Yes, I am a bit angry at God at this point. Prayers offered by me go ignored and unanswered.
M
MrZetterlund
Guest
It’s Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
D
defenderoftruth
Guest
God doesn’t always answer in our time friend he answers in His time and sometimes whether we like it or not the answer is no. He’s God and He knows what is best for his children you just have to trust in that.
Your gay friends maybe having a ball but sin is only fun for a season then the piper comes calling. Not only that the trials you face WILL strengthen you if you don’t let them beat you. Don’t give up, have faith and hope God knows what’s best.
DoT
Your gay friends maybe having a ball but sin is only fun for a season then the piper comes calling. Not only that the trials you face WILL strengthen you if you don’t let them beat you. Don’t give up, have faith and hope God knows what’s best.
DoT
C
Corki
Guest
Lousia,
You posted this thread in the “Catholic Living” forum. It isn’t appropriate to be debating what “some regligions” teach here. That would be for the Non-Catholic forum here.
Catholic teaching is to indeed love **all **men and women. However, loving everyone does not mean confirming them in their sins. That goes for all of us. We recognize some activities as sinful and inappropriate. That includes unchaste living of all kinds: premarital, homosexual, extra-marital, etc.
As for your original request, I am not sure you are really interested in our opinons but here goes…
My opinion is that if two people of the same sex hold themselves out to be a couple, they are advertising an immoral lifestyle.
Absolutely NOT! We are all children of God and fully deserving of dignity and respect.
This depends on “differently” than who? Differently than other couples advertising immoral living arrangements, no. Different than married couples, yes. In the same way I would not treat an unmarried man and woman the same as I would treat my married friends, I would not treat a homosexual couple in the same way I treat my married friends.
I hope so. However, your responses so far seem less than welcoming and more an effort to minimize and put down the opinions of Catholics.
L
LCMS_No_More
Guest
So, the fact that my father basically ignored me, my mother instilled a deep distrust and fear of other boys. The fact that I was rejected by most of my peers. The fact that I constantly feel isolated and alone and loathe my very life is something that God wants for me?
Eh?
What in the world did I do to deserve such terrible treatment by one who calls Himself Love? Am I the one who has to pay off some generational curse or something?
I don’t have any gay friends. I don’t hang around gay people because of the drama, immaturity and a lack of “realness.”
While I have a few friends, it’s very tough for me because I’ve been burned so many times by people that I find it hard to believe in sincerity any more.
I wonder if your syntax in the last sentence there was providential or a typo?
All I can see is a sick, twisted cosmic joke made at my expense.
N
nickybr38
Guest
Generational curses DO happen - perhaps yours will end with you?
Your time on this earth is limited. It FEELS quite long when we’re here but really it’s just a tiny drop of water in a huge ocean. Instead of praying to be released from this burden why not pray that He will use this burden so you can serve Him and others for the limited time you are here?
You might wonder what I mean but there are MANY who suffer. Some are born without eyes, some without legs, some without the ability to speak… but in suffering there is an even greater ability to serve God. A man without sight will relate more to a man without sight then to the men who can see. A man with no legs will relate most to a man without legs rather then the men who can walk. And a man who desires other men will relate more to another man of God who also desires other men.
Perhaps you are here to lead others who suffer your burden to God? And if that’s the case what a great blessing has been given you in your burden!
And if I have in any way trivialized your suffering by saying all this then I apologize. That’s not my intent. I just want to help you see another side of this pain you are experiencing.
F
fnr
Guest
One of my best friends came out as gay during his late teens/early 20’s, years after we’d met and become friends. His parents were devout Catholics, and he was raised Catholic. He told me a story, which I will anonymize here. I can say that this was after Vatican II. To be honest, I’ll caveat the story with the fact that my account is second-hand, and his first-hand account was told to me years after the story took place, so he may have been selective with the telling of it. Nevertheless, I grieve terribly for him, because I know what torment his sexuality has cost him. With that, here’s the story as I understand it, and ask for forgiveness if I tell it wrongly.
When my friend was in his late “tweens” or early teens, he’d been struggling mightily with the realization that while his male friends were talking about crushes on girls, he searched himself for the same interest. He’d been confused, feeling alienated from his friends and afraid of what it meant, when one Sunday he heard a homily that changed his life (and not in a good way).
Apparently, the priest presiding at that Mass had decided that he needed to talk about sexual morality to a congregation which he’d felt needed to hear it. In the pews of that Church was my friend, who heard the priest talk about the abomination of homosexuality, and that homosexuals were destined for eternal fire. I don’t know what else the priest had said, but those words created a crisis in my friend.
A boy who was a “tween” or “early teen” without the adult reasoning and moral sense needed to interpret the homily, came out of that church with the dreadful, desperate belief that God viewed him as an abomination and destined for the fires of Hell.
I can’t say what that young man went through in the following weeks, months, and years, but he never got it out of his head that he was repugnant in God’s eyes. Eventually, I think he came to the conclusion that God must hate him, so he began at first to hate God. Subsequently, he became an atheist.
I first met him years after this incident, but before he came out (or admitted his homosexuality to himself), and became his good friend. I was his friend during years when he tried to become interested in women, and when that effort failed him, when he entered a period of utter self-hatred. What brought him out of that despair wasn’t the visible Church, but family and friends who told him that we loved him no matter what. The gay community offered him acceptance, and rationale for self-esteem that for so long had escaped him.
I understand why the suicide rate of young gay men is higher – I believe – than any other demographic group. We cannot look on a statistic like that, and read James chapter 2, and be other than sympathetic, and for many, empathetic.
We can bemoan the lack of pastoral care he received, the lack of parental competence (by parents who seemed to me quite competent), or his prideful and avaricious nature (ooh, those terrible 11-13 year olds), but all of those reasons ring quite hollow to me.
My friend had been a very good, innocent little boy. Puberty hit him, and he realized he was different from his friends. He was struggling with his own inner torment, when a priest’s homily sent him down a path that led him to renounce God, hate himself, and embrace a community that offered neither God nor hate (though there are many devoutly religious gay people, that wasn’t what helped him).
In considering my friend’s story, I think of the sex abuse crisis that became public over the last few decades (it’s been with the Church since at least the second century, according to canon lawyer Thomas Doyle, OP, who deals with abuse cases). I think of the pre-Vatican II practice of recruiting prepubescent or early pubescent young men for the seminary, within which they were subjected to a stark sexual asceticism devoid of any emotional content that could address the radical developmental process that is puberty and adolescence. Psychological surveys of U.S. priests, commissioned by the U.S. bishops conference, indicate that the majority of priests in the 1970s were not well developed emotionally, and that around 8% or so were “maldeveloped” in the wording of one. If my friend was one gay young man who left the Church, what must have happened for those who joined the priesthood? (My heart goes out to them and I pray for them)
Moral theology must be informed by an understanding of human psychology. Sexuality isn’t just a moral matter, it’s an emotional and physical matter. As English philosopher Jeremy Bentham put it (in different words), “should implies can.” In other words, in order for there to be a moral imperative on a person, that person must be fully capable of carrying out that moral imperative.
Human nature is “fallen,” if we take as given the historicity of Adam and Eve and the inter-generational propagation of concupiscence that the doctrine of original sin implies (side note: the fact that “mitochondrial Eve” and “Y-chromosome Adam” lived tens of thousands of years apart suggests we need to rethink the historicity of Genesis). If we are fallen, “should” can exist without “can,” if with grace, “we can.” However, the application of this type of inferential logic to human sexuality is fraught with problems.
If there is a biological basis to homosexuality (which I would posit likely if less than totally proven), such a basis yields a very difficult tangle for Catholic moral theology. We can spend time attempting to refute every paper suggesting a biological basis to homosexuality, or we can look at them all with totally objectivity. Without saying that there is evidence of a biological basis to homosexuality, I’d like to ask the question: if should implies can (bolstered by grace), what does it mean when biology might imply “can not” or at least “can not without excruciating psychological torment?”
When my friend was in his late “tweens” or early teens, he’d been struggling mightily with the realization that while his male friends were talking about crushes on girls, he searched himself for the same interest. He’d been confused, feeling alienated from his friends and afraid of what it meant, when one Sunday he heard a homily that changed his life (and not in a good way).
Apparently, the priest presiding at that Mass had decided that he needed to talk about sexual morality to a congregation which he’d felt needed to hear it. In the pews of that Church was my friend, who heard the priest talk about the abomination of homosexuality, and that homosexuals were destined for eternal fire. I don’t know what else the priest had said, but those words created a crisis in my friend.
A boy who was a “tween” or “early teen” without the adult reasoning and moral sense needed to interpret the homily, came out of that church with the dreadful, desperate belief that God viewed him as an abomination and destined for the fires of Hell.
I can’t say what that young man went through in the following weeks, months, and years, but he never got it out of his head that he was repugnant in God’s eyes. Eventually, I think he came to the conclusion that God must hate him, so he began at first to hate God. Subsequently, he became an atheist.
I first met him years after this incident, but before he came out (or admitted his homosexuality to himself), and became his good friend. I was his friend during years when he tried to become interested in women, and when that effort failed him, when he entered a period of utter self-hatred. What brought him out of that despair wasn’t the visible Church, but family and friends who told him that we loved him no matter what. The gay community offered him acceptance, and rationale for self-esteem that for so long had escaped him.
I understand why the suicide rate of young gay men is higher – I believe – than any other demographic group. We cannot look on a statistic like that, and read James chapter 2, and be other than sympathetic, and for many, empathetic.
We can bemoan the lack of pastoral care he received, the lack of parental competence (by parents who seemed to me quite competent), or his prideful and avaricious nature (ooh, those terrible 11-13 year olds), but all of those reasons ring quite hollow to me.
My friend had been a very good, innocent little boy. Puberty hit him, and he realized he was different from his friends. He was struggling with his own inner torment, when a priest’s homily sent him down a path that led him to renounce God, hate himself, and embrace a community that offered neither God nor hate (though there are many devoutly religious gay people, that wasn’t what helped him).
In considering my friend’s story, I think of the sex abuse crisis that became public over the last few decades (it’s been with the Church since at least the second century, according to canon lawyer Thomas Doyle, OP, who deals with abuse cases). I think of the pre-Vatican II practice of recruiting prepubescent or early pubescent young men for the seminary, within which they were subjected to a stark sexual asceticism devoid of any emotional content that could address the radical developmental process that is puberty and adolescence. Psychological surveys of U.S. priests, commissioned by the U.S. bishops conference, indicate that the majority of priests in the 1970s were not well developed emotionally, and that around 8% or so were “maldeveloped” in the wording of one. If my friend was one gay young man who left the Church, what must have happened for those who joined the priesthood? (My heart goes out to them and I pray for them)
Moral theology must be informed by an understanding of human psychology. Sexuality isn’t just a moral matter, it’s an emotional and physical matter. As English philosopher Jeremy Bentham put it (in different words), “should implies can.” In other words, in order for there to be a moral imperative on a person, that person must be fully capable of carrying out that moral imperative.
Human nature is “fallen,” if we take as given the historicity of Adam and Eve and the inter-generational propagation of concupiscence that the doctrine of original sin implies (side note: the fact that “mitochondrial Eve” and “Y-chromosome Adam” lived tens of thousands of years apart suggests we need to rethink the historicity of Genesis). If we are fallen, “should” can exist without “can,” if with grace, “we can.” However, the application of this type of inferential logic to human sexuality is fraught with problems.
If there is a biological basis to homosexuality (which I would posit likely if less than totally proven), such a basis yields a very difficult tangle for Catholic moral theology. We can spend time attempting to refute every paper suggesting a biological basis to homosexuality, or we can look at them all with totally objectivity. Without saying that there is evidence of a biological basis to homosexuality, I’d like to ask the question: if should implies can (bolstered by grace), what does it mean when biology might imply “can not” or at least “can not without excruciating psychological torment?”
L
LCMS_No_More
Guest
If it were only the fact that I feel attraction for other men without the underlying issues (impossible as the underlying issues cause the same-sex attractions), then I can see that as a possibility. The attraction is not the problem, it’s the manifestation of other problems, which I point out below.
This is part of the problem when it comes to same-sex attractions. Regardless of what anybody says, the fact of the matter is that same-sex attractions have very little, if anything, to do with sex per se. I could go into a long dissertation about temperament and how a perfect storm of circumstances can lead to a child turning out same-sex attracted as an adolescent or adult (my case).
To make it short, the underlying issues have to do with the following:
Loneliness and isolation
Lack of feeling worthwhile as a person
Self-loathing
Depression
I would add, in my case, false messages being fed to me in my early years as a Christian (I was baptized into an evangelical church). At that time, the good message of waiting until one is married to have sex was mixed with nonsensical stuff that had nothing to do with holiness, the sanctity of marriage. Instead, at that time, the emphasis was on protecting the the girl in the relationship.
The message I got was “boys (men) who have sex with girls (women) are using the girl (woman) for his own pleasure and the girl (woman) doesn’t want to do it and doesn’t like it but gives in to please to boy (man).”
Considering my natural personality is one of being kind and giving when and how I can, this message of sex = male using female was anathema to me. Add details from my childhood (deprioritized by dad, fear and distrust of other boys instilled by mom, and rejection by peers) and it becomes clear that what is produced by these things is a pretty messed up person.
Can you see how I might be a little miffed at God for this? People I trusted in my life all let me down. I ask God for help and he ignores my request.
The way I see it, it is impossible to trivialize something most people know little about, especially when one is trying to offer comfort and counsel. I hope I was able to give you some understanding of what it’s like to have same-sex attractions.
N
nickybr38
Guest
To make it short, the underlying issues have to do with the following:
Loneliness and isolation
Lack of feeling worthwhile as a person
Self-loathing
Depression
Can you see how I might be a little miffed at God for this? People I trusted in my life all let me down. I ask God for help and he ignores my request.
God has not ignored your request - He has simply answered it in a way that you aren’t able to see yet (perhaps because His answer hasn’t yet arrived, or because your sadness has hidden the answer from you, or because His answer was no).
- You are not alone. This is one of those ‘pat’ answers people give to comfort but please believe it’s true. God is with you, as is your Guardian if you ask him to be. You may not hear their voices or feel their touch but they are with you and they grieve when you grieve.
- You have purpose and your existance is important and vital. Somewhere, someway you are going to touch someone’s life (or you may have already) and by doing so you are going to (or have already) affect change. God doesn’t create useless creatures.
- It saddens me that you dislike yourself. Ignoring the obvious and unchangeable - what would make you feel better about who you are?
- It seems to me a great deal of this generation is afflicted with depression. I myself sometimes struggle with it.
You will be in my prayers.
A
agapewolf
Guest
www.tobhealing.com
Its in process right now, but call Dr. Bob Scheutz. He’s a healer. (Under the direction of his bishop)
Its in process right now, but call Dr. Bob Scheutz. He’s a healer. (Under the direction of his bishop)
I
Irish_Girl_68
Guest
I personally don’t believe homosexuality is right. I believe this because the Bible and the Catholic Church teach this. That being said, I also know the Bible and the Catholic Church teach me to love my neighbor as myself. Rejecting people on the basis of their sexual orientation seems counter to that. Further, both the Bible and the Catholic Church have teachings on a lot more than just homosexuality. Sin is sin. It all separates us from God and we all are guilty. Treating gays or lesbians poorly may make a statement about MY feelings on the matter; it doesn’t do anything to promote the kingdom of God or change the hearts of people. I do have a gay friend who once challenged my Catholic beliefs regarding his lifestyle. My response? “I love my Church and its teachings. I follow them to the best of my ability but I do fail. A lot at times. If you want to know more about those teachings, we can talk about them. If you don’t, let’s leave it at this: Don’t ask me what happens in my bedroom and I won’t ask what happens in yours.”
R
russell007
Guest
S
StJudePray4Me
Guest
I am totally serious here, this is something I have wondered about for a while and it seems like this thread is a good place to ask:
Why should we care if non-Catholics are gay? I understand that in the CC, it is a sin to live a homosexual lifestyle and engage in homosexual acts. However, I don’t understand why the Church is so adamant about things like gay marriage in the public sphere. If people do not believe in the Church and want to live what they feel is their authentic life as a gay person, why should the CC stand in their way?
I struggle with this, as I personally think that gay people are being denied civil rights. The United States is not a Catholic country, or any religion – so why should religions dictate to people what their rights should be when they are not breaking any civil laws?
((Putting on my fire-proof pants – flame away!!))
Why should we care if non-Catholics are gay? I understand that in the CC, it is a sin to live a homosexual lifestyle and engage in homosexual acts. However, I don’t understand why the Church is so adamant about things like gay marriage in the public sphere. If people do not believe in the Church and want to live what they feel is their authentic life as a gay person, why should the CC stand in their way?
I struggle with this, as I personally think that gay people are being denied civil rights. The United States is not a Catholic country, or any religion – so why should religions dictate to people what their rights should be when they are not breaking any civil laws?
((Putting on my fire-proof pants – flame away!!))
J
Joseph_L_Varga
Guest
The Catholic Church does not stand in the way of gay people. Those who do not regard homosexual unions as valid marriages, do not stand in the way of homosexuals. LGBT people can live their lives any way they want to. Catholics, and Christians are simply exercising their right to make their own judgment about homosexual unions, and their judgment is “it is not a marriage”. Forcing the Catholic Church, and Christians in general, to call “marriage” that which they do not regard as marriage, would infringe on their right for free speech.
L
LCMS_No_More
Guest
And yet that Church only offers one path to people with same-sex attractions: a solitary life with no meaningful vocation. According to people here, those with SSA can’t be priests or religious. Marriage is between a man and a woman, so people with SSA can’t be married. Instead, it’s a single life and…what? What kinds of opportunities do people with SSA have to serve the Church in a meaningful way?
In that way, I see the words of the Church in the catechism being expressed in word but not in deed.
J
Joseph_L_Varga
Guest
I disagree with the bolded part of what you said. I’m single, and I perceive my life as happy and meaningful. About half of my close friends, more than 10 very good friends, are also single. In addition, I know and I have known many other wonderful people who were single. For example, my aunt who is 85-y.o. now, never married. My mother, who is 81, has been single apart from an 8-year period when she was married to my father. Thus, she has been single for more than 90% of her life. And growing up, I knew at least 5 other wonderful older people who had been bachelors/bachelorettes during their whole lives. I do not regard singleness as a handicap. And neither did the Apostle Paul regard it as a handicap - he told that the married person is not totally free to pursue what pleases the Lord, but the single person is free of such worldly duties that come with having a spouse, and essentially has the better deal in life, because he/she is free to totally dedicate him/herself to the Lord. And don’t tell me that being a priest is the only way to serve the Lord.
- Status