Homosexuality

[NewsTheMan]

What kinds of opportunities do people with SSA have to serve the Church in a meaningful way?

The 3 Vocations of the Church:

Religious
Marriage
Consecrated Single

If you suffer from SSA, then your vocation is Consecrated Single life. And it is a vocation, maybe not by choice, as a heterosexual could choose all 3 really, but it’s your opportunity none-the-less, and as others have said, it is your heavy cross to bear.

 

[agapewolf]

And yet that Church only offers one path to people with same-sex attractions: a solitary life with no meaningful vocation. According to people here, those with SSA can’t be priests or religious. Marriage is between a man and a woman, so people with SSA can’t be married. Instead, it’s a single life and…what? What kinds of opportunities do people with SSA have to serve the Church in a meaningful way?

In that way, I see the words of the Church in the catechism being expressed in word but not in deed.

How insulting. I’m single and I have served the church in a VERY meaningful way. Because I am single, I am able to play music for many holiday masses. I’m able to play music for weddings on weekends. In fact, being single has let me be way more available to serve the church than most married people.

And being single is hardly being “solitary”

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I disagree with the bolded part of what you said. I’m single, and I perceive my life as happy and meaningful. About half of my close friends, more than 10 very good friends, are also single. In addition, I know and I have known many other wonderful people who were single. For example, my aunt who is 85-y.o. now, never married. My mother, who is 81, has been single apart from an 8-year period when she was married to my father. Thus, she has been single for more than 90% of her life. And growing up, I knew at least 5 other wonderful older people who had been bachelors/bachelorettes during their whole lives. I do not regard singleness as a handicap. And neither did the Apostle Paul regard it as a handicap - he told that the married person is not totally free to pursue what pleases the Lord, but the single person is free of such worldly duties that come with having a spouse, and essentially has the better deal in life, because he/she is free to totally dedicate him/herself to the Lord. And don’t tell me that being a priest is the only way to serve the Lord.

All good and well, but what does one DO? What does the Church do to facilitate singles except to help them pair off?

 

[LCMS_No_More]

The 3 Vocations of the Church:

Religious
Marriage
Consecrated Single

If you suffer from SSA, then your vocation is Consecrated Single life. And it is a vocation, maybe not by choice, as a heterosexual could choose all 3 really, but it’s your opportunity none-the-less, and as others have said, it is your heavy cross to bear.

And what does one DO?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Agapewolf, that’s the correct attitude!

LCMS No More, lest you would think that only you bear a heavy cross, and only you have a vocation not by choice, consider the following two real stories:

1. My biology teacher in middle school, was deported after WWII and spent 6 years in a Soviet Gulag (his last name was Ulrich, and the Soviets deported anyone whose name sounded German). Some time after he was released, he got married, but his wife suffered an accident and spent the last 30 years of her life in a wheelchair, paralyzed. What kind of vocation is that, prisoner in the Gulags? Caring for a paralyzed wife? Yet, this man had an inner peace that attracted us to him.
2. Fr. Walter J. Ciszek, the Jesuit priest who spent 23 years in the Soviet Gulags, and wrote two wonderful books about his experiences, entitled “He Leadeth Me”, and “With God in Russia”. See:

ignatius.com/Products/WGR-P/with-god-in-russia.aspx

Man, there’s no benefit in constantly whining and feeling like a victim. Accept your situation in life, make the best of it, and I promise, you will find happiness. Especially if you don’t become bitter, and don’t start rebelling against God and against the wisdom of His choices for you.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

How insulting. I’m single and I have served the church in a VERY meaningful way. Because I am single, I am able to play music for many holiday masses. I’m able to play music for weddings on weekends. In fact, being single has let me be way more available to serve the church than most married people.

Actually, my intention was not to insult but to express my frustration and the one and only choice I had. You gave an examples of useful service to the Church. Thank you.

In my case, I don’t have much in the way of musical skill, but I’m told I’m charismatic and seem to have natural leadership abilities (I’ve actually had people rally around me because of an idea I had). I have great organizational skills and a keen analytical mind.

And being single is hardly being “solitary”

That depends on how you define solitary. I mean, sure having several friends is great, but how many are married or involved in a relationship? They invite you over or hang out occasionally, but you’re never a member of the family, but an outsider who was invited in for a time. One is never “part” of anything. Priests are married to the Church in a special way. Families are all members of each-other, but once one “leaves the nest” that all changes. Yes, we can have friends and family who we visit from time to time, but aside from being a member of the one-billion member strong Catholic Church, are we “part” of any societal group?

 

[fnr]

Man, there’s no benefit in constantly whining and feeling like a victim. Accept your situation in life, make the best of it, and I promise, you will find happiness. Especially if you don’t become bitter, and don’t start rebelling against God and against the wisdom of His choices for you.

You may very well be happy. But there is more to sexuality than the application of moral theology. Sexual desire isn’t just a test of moral fortitude, and treating it as such isn’t healthful. Call it original sin or biological determinism, but the human brain doesn’t deal with psychosexual impulses using only reason. When it feel sexual attraction, the subconscious brain acts through the endocrine and nervous systems to alter the physiological state of nearly every organ system in the body. Pounding down the impulse doesn’t make it go away, and a commitment to celibacy requires healthful coping mechanisms to deal with one of the fundamental emotional conditions of the human person.

A lack of integrated coping with sexuality in seminarians led to grossly abnormal psychological states in priests during the late 20th century.

From “Roman Catholic Clericalism, Religious Duress, and Clergy Sexual Abuse” by Thomas P. Doyle, OP, Pontifical Doctor of Canon Law, and U.S. Air Force Chaplain:

The Catholic clergy as a group continued to approach sexual issues, particularly sexual dysfunction, from the same moralistic mind set as had their counterparts in the Middle Ages. This deep-seated resistence to a nontraditional view of human sexuality was especially true of the hierarchy. Priests and bishops commonly believed that problem and solution were both rooted in the will. The temptation to act out, to sin, is either resisted or succumbed to. In either case there are no acceptable mitigating factors provided by the behavioral sciences. Consequently the average Catholic cleric remained significantly immature and emotionally underdeveloped. Authentic human maturity was frowned upon by the institutional church. It posed a threat to the complex and intricate web that had been constructed over the centuries as a way to understand the human
person.

Sexual dysfunction of any kind is evaluated and judged by a generalized negative concept of human sexuality (Doherty, 1966). Illicit sexual acts are presumed immoral and have been historically linked directly to the will. The perpetrator is considered a sinner and his actions evil. The solution is repentance and conversion. This outlook has begun to change only within the past ten years due to consistent pressure on Church leadership…

 

[chazk728]

1. Fr. Walter J. Ciszek, the Jesuit priest who spent 23 years in the Soviet Gulags, and wrote two wonderful books about his experiences, entitled “He Leadeth Me”, and “With God in Russia”.

Fr. Benedict Groeschel has talked about Fr. Walter Ciszek over and over again as a man of holiness - but I didn’t realize that he had written these 2 books. Thank you very much for your post - I’ve already got “He Leadeth Me” ordered and am looking forward to reading it!

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

You may very well be happy. But there is more to sexuality than the application of moral theology. Sexual desire isn’t just a test of moral fortitude, and treating it as such isn’t healthful. Call it original sin or biological determinism, but the human brain doesn’t deal with psychosexual impulses using only reason. When it feel sexual attraction, the subconscious brain acts through the endocrine and nervous systems to alter the physiological state of nearly every organ system in the body. Pounding down the impulse doesn’t make it go away, and a commitment to celibacy requires healthful coping mechanisms to deal with one of the fundamental emotional conditions of the human person.

I agree that you need healthful coping mechanisms, and I also agree that the challenges of dealing with psychosexual impulses are great, as these impulses affect us profoundly through the neuro-endocrine-immune-physiological mechanisms known to medicine. I will not try to downplay these challenges. But human reason, applying moral theology, is the way to tame ourselves and to bring our impulses under control. First, we should learn what’s proper, and what’s not. And then, we should flee temptation at the first sign. It’s easier to put out a burning match than a raging forest fire. And it’s easier to nip in the bud our inordinate desires, than letting them grow and take over our lives. The vast majority of all human beings, whether heterosexual or with same-sex attractions, whether married or single, whether celibate or not, know these temptations and inordinate desires all too well. Consider these examples, affecting people from other walks of life than single people with SSA:

• a man’s wife is paralyzed, they have not had sexual relations for several years. The man hooks up with a young woman, and brings her into the family home. The new “family” consists of the man, his paralyzed wife, and the young concubine. This is a true story (the man was one of my teachers in college), and a very sad story.
• a 30-something school teacher, a married woman with 3 children, “falls in love” with a 13-year old boy. She becomes pregnant, abandons her family, she bears two children to this boy, and finally when he turns 18, they get married. This is another true story you may be familiar with.
• a mentally deranged man, who is married, fantasizes about taking seventy (70) wives. He abducts a 13-year old girl in Utah, and his new “family” consists of him, his wife, and the poor girl, until he is finally caught by the police (another true story).

People with SSA are not all that alone in their challenges to deal with inordinate desires and temptations. I will submit that all humans are sexual beings and have to deal with various sexual impulses.

Let’s learn from Job in the Old Testament, whom the Bible calls a blameless and upright man. Although the language in the following quote is archaic, you can still make out the meaning in the bolded part: one is tempted into sin by letting his eyes wonder mindlessly, which will allow for sinful desires and thoughts to be awakened in one’s heart and mind. Finally, by entertaining those sinful thoughts and desires, one will be enticed upon acting on them and falling into sin. So, just as Job didn’t let his eyes wander, and always walked in God’s steps, treasuring in his heart His commands, so should we live our lives. These are not empty words, but rather the recipe for victory in our everyday battle for purity!

Book of Job, Chapter 23:

11
My foot has always walked in his steps; his way I have kept and have not turned aside.
12
From the commands of his lips I have not departed; the words of his mouth I have treasured in my heart.

Chapter 31:

5
1 If I have walked in falsehood and my foot has hastened to deceit;
7
If my steps have turned out of the way, and my heart has followed my eyes, or any stain clings to my hands,
8
Then may I sow, but another eat of it, or may my planting be rooted up!
38
If my land has cried out against me till its very furrows complained;
39
If I have eaten its produce without payment and grieved the hearts of its tenants;
40
Then let the thistles grow instead of wheat and noxious weeds instead of barley!
1
2 **If I have made an agreement with my eyes and entertained any thoughts against a maiden;
9
If my heart has been enticed toward a woman, and I have lain in wait at my neighbor’s door; **10
Then may my wife grind for another, and may others cohabit with her!
11
For that would be heinous, a crime to be condemned;
12
A fire that should burn down to the abyss till it consumed all my possessions to the roots.

2 [8,9] Note the gradation: avoidance of sinful glances and thoughts against a maiden; desire for another’s wife.

A lack of integrated coping with sexuality in seminarians led to grossly abnormal psychological states in priests during the late 20th century.

From “Roman Catholic Clericalism, Religious Duress, and Clergy Sexual Abuse” by Thomas P. Doyle, OP, Pontifical Doctor of Canon Law, and U.S. Air Force Chaplain:

What’s your point? That we had priests and seminarians who were psychologically ill and even fell into sins, leading to the child abuse scandal? Yes, we had such priests - a MINORITY. But we also had a MAJORITY of priests who led holy lives and were psychologically balanced. I’m not happy with blanket statements suggesting that every single priest in the late 20th century was a psychologically abnormal child abuser. Let’s just put up all priests against all high school teachers, and let’s see which group is healthier and holier overall, and which group committed more lewd behavior and child abuse! Do you follow the news? There is a new story of school teachers having sex with multiple 13-y.o. to 16-y.o. boys every week!

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Fr. Benedict Groeschel has talked about Fr. Walter Ciszek over and over again as a man of holiness - but I didn’t realize that he had written these 2 books. Thank you very much for your post - I’ve already got “He Leadeth Me” ordered and am looking forward to reading it!

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

All good and well, but what does one DO? What does the Church do to facilitate singles except to help them pair off?

LCMS_No_More, maybe you are really less lucky than I was, because I had a very good Bible study and prayer group at my parish. That’s where I made some good friends, and several of them were (are) bachelors/bachelorettes. There were also single people who ended up dating and marrying each other. But we had SO MANY single people, including people up to in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, that being single you would not stand out, you wouldn’t be perceived as odd or out of place.

Also, during my graduate studies, I made good friends, and now, more than 15 years later, we still stick together. Almost everybody in that circle of friends was single in the beginning, and although some ended up marrying and having children later on, others stayed single up to this day.

So, actually I have two separate circles of friends, and I am not being perceived as out-of-place in neither of those, because we have single people of all walks of life, including lifelong bachelors/bachelorettes, divorced people, and even widows, among us.

I hope and pray that God will bless you with good friends just as He blessed me, and then you will not feel solitary anymore. :hug3: :grouphug:

 

[djeter]

What is everyones oppinion of Gay Or Lesbian Couples.

Are they any less of a person because of their choice in partner.

Should they be treated any differently because they prefer their own sex.

I welcome your thoughts and oppinions

Louisa.

Fr. Richard John Neuhaus penned this piece that looked back to the statement of the US Bishops, “Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care.” I introduce it here followed by reading selections from the statement.

I would hope what I have summarized and presented shows how the Church’s thinking is rooted in its readings of Scripture (Genesis, Paul) and its beliefs concerning Christian anthropology, Temperance and Charity. In fact to get to the idea that Gay Marriage should be supported by the faithful you need to trample upon so much Catholic dogma and teaching one wonders how to remain Catholic at the end of that thought process. I guess I am a little in awe of those who seek for the Church to give a pass on homosexual acts yet to oppose adultery, fornication, masturbation, and contraception (all of which also violate the proper ends of human sexuality).

One of the problems of the Church’s teaching on homosexuality is how little of it is understood by the faithful. There is an onslaught of Catholics righteously intoning the “disorder of homosexuality” or ‘the sinfulness of homosexuals” when the Church specifically teaches that homosexual inclination is not itself a sin. Neither is the inclination to masturbation or fornication. The very fact that the Rainbow Sash Movement originates in the Catholic Church shows how little some of us understand what it is to be Catholic.

If you wish to review how Catholics look at homosexuality, the material is here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/causes-of-homosexuality-a-christian-appraisal-of-the-data/homosexuality-and-loves-duty/

Professor Robert P. Georges explanation of what marriage is and isn’t is here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/06/03/the-illusions-of-married-personalism/

Together these two pieces give a full presentation of the challenge gay marriage makes to Church teachings on human sexuality and personalism.

dj

 

[Cable]

Actually, my intention was not to insult but to express my frustration and the one and only choice I had. You gave an examples of useful service to the Church. Thank you.

In my case, I don’t have much in the way of musical skill, but I’m told I’m charismatic and seem to have natural leadership abilities (I’ve actually had people rally around me because of an idea I had). I have great organizational skills and a keen analytical mind.

That depends on how you define solitary. I mean, sure having several friends is great, but how many are married or involved in a relationship? They invite you over or hang out occasionally, but you’re never a member of the family, but an outsider who was invited in for a time. One is never “part” of anything. Priests are married to the Church in a special way. Families are all members of each-other, but once one “leaves the nest” that all changes. Yes, we can have friends and family who we visit from time to time, but aside from being a member of the one-billion member strong Catholic Church, are we “part” of any societal group?

Your messages all along are moving in the sense of the pain and struggle. You know you’re not alone though. There’s certainly no shortage of people with pain, misdirection and whatnot from their upbringing. I prayed in front of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, for you yesterday and you’re included in my prayers this weekend.

 

[Flame4]

Lets put it this way: hate the sin not the sinner. I **don’t dislike **people who are homosexual, that isn’t their choice. I have a friend who is. I believe homosexual acts are wrong- they have a choice here, and I will pray for them:thumbsup:

 

[chazk728]

I’m about 5 chapters into “He Leadeth Me” by Fr. Walter Ciszek. It is phenomenal. What a blessing to hear his wisdom about our total reliance on God at every moment, and what it means to accept His will for our lives. Thank you again for the suggestion!

 

[Jermosh]

All people should be treated with respect and dignity. We should treat a SSC with the same respect of one that is adulterous, with dignitity and respect, even though they are both grave acts and evil relationships. We are all sinners.

 

[gretahope]

I have no problem with homosexual people. They are people. However, I do have a problem with indulging desire and this goes for ANY sin.

Just because I have a desire does not mean I should act on it. In fact in denying the desire (whether it be sexual or emotional in nature) there is a great deal of victory.

The homosexual friends I have live the homosexual lifestyle to the max - they encourage their friends (including me) to have sex with anyone who comes along. They bounce from partner to partner. They mix and mesh religions until they’ve created a new religion that agrees with their life choices. So I’ve seen the worst of this lifestyle, but I also recognize not everyone with that particular desire is going to behave in the worst way.

No sinner is greater or lesser then another so I treat all people with love and respect. That doesn’t mean I have to accept every action they make.

I hope I didn’t ramble too much.

I think there are verses which speak about sins which are more serious, I think in2 Peter? What about: the effect of something like a white lie about why someone was late to a meeting vs a chronic pedophile…

 

[stephe1987]

I think gays and lesbians are fine. I believe everyone is equal, so nobody is better than anybody else.

We all have urges from time to time, but we need to be able to control ourselves. Just because people sin or because certain sins have become accepted in secular society, doesn’t mean they are okay. Some people have urges between same-sex, others opposite sex, others are attracted to both, and others… should not be around children.

The Bible is specific that sex should only occur between a married man and woman (married to each other). I trust Jesus above the societal norms, which shift from time to time. Even married couples have to refrain sometimes. NFP requires abstinence for certain periods of time, and sometimes illness or surgery will make it so it is weeks or months between intercourse, even for married couples. Learn to control your body!

Jesus taught us to love one another. Love does not mean “make love” as in having sex. It means to love each other as brother and sister. We are Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I have friends of all kinds and do not discriminate against anyone (age, ethnicity, orientation, social class, etc.). Here in California it’s very hard NOT to have gay and lesbian friends.

However, just because someone is my friend doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything he or she does. Both gay and straight couples are cohabiting, people have told me they’ve stolen from stores before, cheated on tests, etc. Love the sinner, not the sin.

Also, I heard of a study that shows that homosexual Christian men can live together, actually support each other really well, AND be chaste. They can just live as best friends, and they are able to keep each other on a good path following Jesus better than they would have otherwise been, had they chosen to live apart or with different people. People just need to learn to control themselves and not give in to temptation. Not a popular idea in a culture that encourages people as young as middle school to be promiscuous (and makes fun of high schoolers who are still virgins).

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I think gays and lesbians are fine. I believe everyone is equal, so nobody is better than anybody else.

We all have urges from time to time, but we need to be able to control ourselves. Just because people sin or because certain sins have become accepted in secular society, doesn’t mean they are okay. Some people have urges between same-sex, others opposite sex, others are attracted to both, and others… should not be around children.

The Bible is specific that sex should only occur between a married man and woman (married to each other). I trust Jesus above the societal norms, which shift from time to time. Even married couples have to refrain sometimes. NFP requires abstinence for certain periods of time, and sometimes illness or surgery will make it so it is weeks or months between intercourse, even for married couples. Learn to control your body!

Jesus taught us to love one another. Love does not mean “make love” as in having sex. It means to love each other as brother and sister. We are Brothers and Sisters in Christ. I have friends of all kinds and do not discriminate against anyone (age, ethnicity, orientation, social class, etc.). Here in California it’s very hard NOT to have gay and lesbian friends.

However, just because someone is my friend doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything he or she does. Both gay and straight couples are cohabiting, people have told me they’ve stolen from stores before, cheated on tests, etc. Love the sinner, not the sin.

Also, I heard of a study that shows that homosexual Christian men can live together, actually support each other really well, AND be chaste. They can just live as best friends, and they are able to keep each other on a good path following Jesus better than they would have otherwise been, had they chosen to live apart or with different people. People just need to learn to control themselves and not give in to temptation. Not a popular idea in a culture that encourages people as young as middle school to be promiscuous (and makes fun of high schoolers who are still virgins).

I agree with everything you say. And truly, we all have to learn to control our bodies. Even heterosexual people who are happily married to each other, might find themselves in situations in which they have to abstain. What about the fighter pilot who was shot down over Vietnam, and spent the next 7 years in Hanoi Hilton (I mean the prison)? Good that his wife stayed faithful to him during all those years!

I know people with SSA are not admitted into the priesthood, but I wonder how about the consecrated religious life (monks)?

 

[ContegoFides]

I highly recommend reading this document, which thoroughly explains the Catholic position on same sex attraction and those that suffer with this cross. I back it 100%.

kofc.org/un/eb/en/resources/cis/CIS385.pdf

A number of biblical texts (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:27; Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Timothy 1:9-10) have been understood by the Church as condemning homosexual acts. Given that the Church has the authority to interpret the Bible and, indeed, to make decisions on matters of faith and morals (Matthew 16:19: “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”) we may reliably say that - objectively speaking and in reality - homosexual acts are gravely disordered. CCC 2357. usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml

That means that committing these acts knowing they are wrong creates the possibility that the person will, with this sin on their soul, turn away from God upon death, and thus condemn themselves to Hell. It’s just not worth the risk!

As far as people with same sex attraction are concerned, we must treat them with dignity and respect, and never discriminate against them solely on the basis that they carry the cross of deep-seated same sex attraction. See also CCC 2358 and 2359. usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml Our response should always be one of love.

One of the big problems we face today is the idea that a loving response requires acceptance of the acts. Not so. Just as we would, in love, strongly tell a child who is about to touch a hot stove that she should not do so, likewise we must, in love, boldly proclaim the Truth about same sex attraction and the sinful nature of acting out on same sex desires.

To fail to do so would NOT be loving, as we would be failing in our duty to help others get to Heaven. Whereas God loves the sinner, He hates the sin; so we should encourage others with same sex attraction to avoid what is objectively - in reality - contrary to God. However, we must do so lovingly and without hatred, and without judgement of a person’s spiritual state.

God Bless,