Homosexuality

[Inquiringperson]

Is homosexuality itself disordered or is it just the act and temptation?

 

[indiecath]

Neither.

 

[sw85]

Is homosexuality itself disordered or is it just the act and temptation?

Sin is an act of the will, so yes, the “act” or “temptation,” not merely the “orientation.”

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Is homosexuality itself disordered or is it just the act and temptation?

Neither and both. Homosexuality (i.e. exclusive same sex attraction) is disordered in that it is ordered away from the correct ordering of sexuality (disordered) which is procreation. All sexual acts that are intrinsically sterile are intrinsically wrong.

 

[thistle]

Is homosexuality itself disordered or is it just the act and temptation?

Same sex attraction (with no sexual relationship) is disordered but not a sin.
Homosexual activity (sex between same sexes) is gravely disordered and hence a sin of grave matter.

 

[JReducation]

It’s important to understand what the CCC is saying to us as well as Bl. John Paul’s directives on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual People.

Homosexuality is disordered. We have to take that word in the Church’s context, not Webster’s. The Church does not use Webster to speak. Much of her language is very ambiguous to us when it’s translated. In the Church’s tradition dis ordered means anything that is either out of the ordinary because of some fluke or out of the ordinary because of a conscious deviation. In this case, the meaning is the former.

If we read the rest of the paragraph in the CCC and John Paul’s words in his pastoral letter, homosexuality is of unknown causes. The Church does not subscribe to any of the theories out there. Therefore, as far as the Church is concerned, it is disordered, because of some unknown factor that is not willed by the homosexual person. The two paragraphs on homosexuality make this very clear, as well as the pastoral letter.

Homosexual acts fall into a whole other category. They are objectively gravely sinful, because such acts cannot fulfill the two ends of human sexuality: unitive and procreative intimacy between husband and wife.

Temptation is never a sin. Someone said this and I’m not sure if that’s what they wanted to say. The term temptation applies to that which points to something else, good or bad, that is spontaneous. In other words, the person’s will is not involved.

Just to give a better understanding of temptation, imagine being on a diet and getting a sudden urge to each McDonald’s. You can’t be accused of deliberately wanting McDonald’s just because you like McDonald’s. If wouldn’t be a temptation if it was not attractive. St. Augustine explained this very well. To the thief, the object that he steals is a desired good. That does not mean he is justified in stealing. The same applies with all sexual temptations. Just because there is an attraction does not justify the action.

There is a difference between being homosexual and homosexual activity. The latter is disordered but not a sin. The former is objectively sinful. Disordered here is not being used to mean sick. It is a translation from Latin, meaning atypical.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[manualman]

The problem with JR posts is that they leave very little else to say!

Nice job, as usual!

 

[PeterAgain]

(cut)…

Homosexual acts fall into a whole other category. They are objectively gravely sinful,
(cut)…
There is a difference between being homosexual and homosexual activity. The latter is disordered but not a sin. The former is objectively sinful. Disordered here is not being used to mean sick. It is a translation from Latin, meaning atypical.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

I think you may have mixed up your “Former” and “Latter” here. “being homosexual” (having the temptation) is atypical. Homosexual activity is objectively sinful. You had things lined up earlier, though.

 

[JReducation]

Peter is right. Flip flop that folks. That’s what happens when you get old.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[aragonjohn1]

Same sex attraction (with no sexual relationship) is disordered but not a sin.
Homosexual activity (sex between same sexes) is gravely disordered and hence a sin of grave matter.

This^
Also the church has had this position since first century.

 

[Transformer]

I would add that (as I understand it) the Church is not claiming that homosexuality is a medical or psychological disorder. The Church is claiming that attractions toward members of the same sex are spiritually disordered, because, as thistle said, necessarily and of their very nature they cannot be ordered toward procreation.

Sometimes when people hear that the Church teaches that homosexuality is objectively disordered, they think that she is claiming that homosexuality is some kind of mental health problem or that gay people are diseased or something. That is not the case; the Church is not a medical organization and she does not pretend to be.

 

[comfort1st]

The problem, Transformer, is that Christian communities of all denominations have a track record of treating homosexual people as if they were/are inherently sinful, even when modern genetics shows the complex relationship between what is considered “male” and what is considered “female”. For centuries these people have been cast out as unworthy of being called Christian.

Even if it is true that the person’s sexuality is not consistent with the ability to procreate, that person is still a child of God, despite sinning because the urge for a sexual relationship is as strong as, or stronger than, that of people who are “ordered”. As such, we are still called on to minister to homosexual people, not to cast them out of the church. If we are followers of Christ, who touched and healed lepers (the outcasts of the day) why do we refuse to do the same for the outcasts of our day?

Please let us also remember that the best person to bring a homosexual person to God is likely to be another homosexual person, because there is an understanding of the physical and spiritual problems well beyond what “normal” people can achieve.

God bless
Steven

 

[ritthichai]

Also the church has had this position since first century.

A major and intrinsic problem with all ‘revealed’ religions, including Christianity, is that their morality must be stuck in the era and geography of the alleged ‘revelation’.

Unlike the irrational ‘sola scriptura’ stance of Protestantism, the Catholic Church has the ability to reflect a more enlightened stance, as history shows it does when the traditional views concerning, for example, slavery and usury being sinful, are demonstrably and overwhelmingly condemned by society - suddenly the Catholic Church wakes up and joins the modern age.

Until such time, the magisterium feels it necessary to force an alignment with those who similarly align with ‘traditional’ (i.e. intolerant) views, such as the Taliban and extreme right-wing organisations.

Beloved Catholics – listen to those whose views you claim to share. Is it the Taliban or is, for example, Desmond Tutu? Is the debate about ‘gay marriage’ a debate about a sacrament or about civil rights?

On the happy day that the Catholic Church wakes up and recognises (as it inevitably will) that people are simply born different and that gay people should not be denied the rights everyone else has (and that includes respect and not condemnation from any spiritual community) then the number of adherents to the Catholic Church in civilised societies may then cease to dwindle.

 

[Winstone]

To say to a homosexual ‘‘It’s okay to be Gay but don’t practise it!’’ is like saying: ‘‘It’s okay to be Catholic but don’t practise it!’’ - Question: Why is so much of the Old Testament, particularly Leviticus ignored today. Example: Leviticus 15, 16-24

16 “‘When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. 18 When a man has sexual relations with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both of them must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

19 “‘When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

20 “‘Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Anyone who touches her bed will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 22 Anyone who touches anything she sits on will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, they will be unclean till evening.

24 “‘If a man has sexual relations with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.

Exodus 20

The Ten Commandments
1 And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Our churches and our homes are often littered with statues and images of heavenly images and forms. No one bats an eyelid when our children could be punished to ‘‘the third and fourth generation’’ because of our hatred of God. Not my words, but God’s! The foot of St Peter in Rome is worn down from worship and adoration. Our Lady is worshipped and adored way beyond the requirements of the Commandments and yet the church doesn’t appear to have a problem with this.

I find it strange and a total insult to God that our Church does not acknowledge many other commandments clearly described in her own books of the Bible. It would be more advantageous to hear from Catholic homosexuals, who, like me, have attempted to live their lives according to the wishes of others because they consider that we are ‘‘disordered’’. I could say many things about the inconsistency of the Church but blood is thicker than water and I have to say I come from a ‘‘damaged’’ family!:

All heaven declares the Glory of the Risen Lord!

 

[kmuestwin]

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Our churches and our homes are often littered with statues and images of heavenly images and forms. No one bats an eyelid when our children could be punished to ‘‘the third and fourth generation’’ because of our hatred of God. Not my words, but God’s! The foot of St Peter in Rome is worn down from worship and adoration. Our Lady is worshipped and adored way beyond the requirements of the Commandments and yet the church doesn’t appear to have a problem with this.

I find it strange and a total insult to God that our Church does not acknowledge many other commandments clearly described in her own books of the Bible. It would be more advantageous to hear from Catholic homosexuals, who, like me, have attempted to live their lives according to the wishes of others because they consider that we are ‘‘disordered’’. I could say many things about the inconsistency of the Church but blood is thicker than water and I have to say I come from a ‘‘damaged’’ family!:

All heaven declares the Glory of the Risen Lord!

You misunderstand the context of graven images and you also misunderstand the difference of the words worship and venerate. Please talk to a priest and have him help you understand the subject more. Also, look at the catechism.

 

[Winstone]

A major and intrinsic problem with all ‘revealed’ religions, including Christianity, is that their morality must be stuck in the era and geography of the alleged ‘revelation’.

Unlike the irrational ‘sola scriptura’ stance of Protestantism, the Catholic Church has the ability to reflect a more enlightened stance, as history shows it does when the traditional views concerning, for example, slavery and usury being sinful, are demonstrably and overwhelmingly condemned by society - suddenly the Catholic Church wakes up and joins the modern age.

Until such time, the magisterium feels it necessary to force an alignment with those who similarly align with ‘traditional’ (i.e. intolerant) views, such as the Taliban and extreme right-wing organisations.

Beloved Catholics – listen to those whose views you claim to share. Is it the Taliban or is, for example, Desmond Tutu? Is the debate about ‘gay marriage’ a debate about a sacrament or about civil rights?

On the happy day that the Catholic Church wakes up and recognises (as it inevitably will) that people are simply born different and that gay people should not be denied the rights everyone else has (and that includes respect and not condemnation from any spiritual community) then the number of adherents to the Catholic Church in civilised societies may then cease to dwindle.

Thank you my dear brother! If only the Church realised how much we loved her. ‘‘Because the Church says so’’ a standard reply from many Catholics, they should consider like yourself how she has been forced to change her mind about so many things. To be at variance with ‘‘The Church’’ means that we exercise the liberty we have received from Christ Jesus Himself and as a member of the Body of Christ I express my concern.

Anyone that knows me soon becomes aware that I do not promote homosexuality no more than you promote heterosexuality - the rights and wrongs, the morality implied, the question of purity of mind, body and spirit are just as relevant to a Catholic homosexual as it is to a Catholic heterosexual. I was once banned from this web site as being in contempt of the Catholic Church simply by pointing out that there had been Nazi Catholics. Shock, horror, it would seem that Hitler didn’t have any Catholics in his ranks. But that’s another story concerned with persecution of homosexuals in The Third Reich! Lots of love and many blessings!

 

[thistle]

A major and intrinsic problem with all ‘revealed’ religions, including Christianity, is that their morality must be stuck in the era and geography of the alleged ‘revelation’.

Unlike the irrational ‘sola scriptura’ stance of Protestantism, the Catholic Church has the ability to reflect a more enlightened stance, as history shows it does when the traditional views concerning, for example, slavery and usury being sinful, are demonstrably and overwhelmingly condemned by society - suddenly the Catholic Church wakes up and joins the modern age.

Until such time, the magisterium feels it necessary to force an alignment with those who similarly align with ‘traditional’ (i.e. intolerant) views, such as the Taliban and extreme right-wing organisations.

Beloved Catholics – listen to those whose views you claim to share. Is it the Taliban or is, for example, Desmond Tutu? Is the debate about ‘gay marriage’ a debate about a sacrament or about civil rights?

On the happy day that the Catholic Church wakes up and recognises (as it inevitably will) that people are simply born different and that gay people should not be denied the rights everyone else has (and that includes respect and not condemnation from any spiritual community) then the number of adherents to the Catholic Church in civilised societies may then cease to dwindle.

Sorry to digress but your profile says ex-Catholic. There is no such thing. Anyone who has been baptised as a Catholic remains a Catholic forever no matter what they think, feel, do including walking away from the Church.
There are only two types of Catholic: those in a state of grace and those in a state of mortal sin. There is no ex-Catholic.

 

[Transformer]

Snipper

I don’t think modern genetic has introduced any kind of confusion about what male and female are. Masculine and feminine, certainly, but not male and female. Modern genetics may have shown us more shades of grey between male and female than we were hitherto aware of, but no matter how many shades of grey you see, you never start to get confused about what black and white are.

I also object to the suggestion that gay people tend to have urges for a sexual relationship stronger than a heterosexual person’s. That, I think, only reinforces the (totally unfair) notion that gay people are naturally more sexual and promiscuous than heterosexual people. They aren’t; they are no more defined by their sexuality than heterosexual people are, and they are no less capable of celibacy.

But other than that, you’re absolutely right. Our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters are still often maligned by Catholics who think that experiencing same-sex attractions is somehow a choice or something that most be opted out of by ‘reparative therapy.’ They should not be.

A major and intrinsic problem with all ‘revealed’ religions, including Christianity, is that their morality must be stuck in the era and geography of the alleged ‘revelation’.

Unless, of course, the Revelation is true, in which case the religion is only stuck in a past era in the sense that it is “stuck” in the Revelation from God that happened to come in that era.

Unlike the irrational ‘sola scriptura’ stance of Protestantism, the Catholic Church has the ability to reflect a more enlightened stance, as history shows it does when the traditional views concerning, for example, slavery and usury being sinful, are demonstrably and overwhelmingly condemned by society - suddenly the Catholic Church wakes up and joins the modern age.

Except that the cases are totally different because slavery’s being considered moral was never a part of the deposit of faith. It was an immoral institution that most Christians happened to accept because it was such a standard part of their cultural context and it was not explicitly condemned in Revelation. The Church’s later realization that it was immoral is akin to the development of Catholic social teaching in the 20th century, not to the reversal of a universally-held Christian dogma.

Until such time, the magisterium feels it necessary to force an alignment with those who similarly align with ‘traditional’ (i.e. intolerant) views, such as the Taliban and extreme right-wing organisations.

Guilt by association is a logical fallacy. There are ancient strands in every major world religion that considered gay sex immoral. What’s more, every Saint in history (and still alive today in the Communion of Saints in heaven) held that gay sex is immoral. If you believe that global warming is a problem, should I condemn you because ecoterrorists exist and happen to share your judgment, even though billions more people who are not terrorists share your judgment as well?

On the happy day that the Catholic Church wakes up and recognises (as it inevitably will) that people are simply born different and that gay people should not be denied the rights everyone else has (and that includes respect and not condemnation from any spiritual community) then the number of adherents to the Catholic Church in civilised societies may then cease to dwindle.

The Church is well aware, as is everyone on this thread, that people are simply born different (or, well, homosexuality arises from a complex composite of genetic, hormonal, and environmental factors, but close enough). The suggestion that Catholicism will lose membership because of her teaching is extremely shaky: many strands of Islam consider gay sex essentially unlawful, and it’s growing exponentially in Europe.

Many people have thought throughout history that the Church would compromise her Creed. The Aryans thought it in the 4th century. The modernists thought it right before Humanae Vitae. But the creed is still here, and the vast majority of the culturally-relative and temporary beliefs that have challenged it are gone.

To be at variance with ‘‘The Church’’ means that we exercise the liberty we have received from Christ Jesus Himself and as a member of the Body of Christ I express my concern.

No, it doesn’t. In Christianity, doctrinal orthodoxy is not meaningless, and attacking it is not freedom. It has been considered essential since the earliest days of Christianity. The first seven ecumenical councils struggled into existence in order to preserve it. Arguing that slavery is immoral was never a matter of doctrinal heterodoxy, because slavery was never a matter of doctrine (St. Gregory of Nyssa condemned slavery, I believe).

 

[comfort1st]

:wink:Greetings Ritthichai.

Whilst I agree with your basic thrust I did have to laugh about your comment that

the Catholic Church has the ability to reflect a more enlightened stance, as history shows it does when the traditional views concerning, for example, slavery and usury being sinful, are demonstrably and overwhelmingly condemned by society

Is that why the Roman Catholic Church was the last Christian denomination to acknowledge that Gilileo was correct, and took about 400 years to do so fully (ie with the apology)?

Blessings
Steven

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

A major and intrinsic problem with all ‘revealed’ religions, including Christianity, is that their morality must be stuck in the era and geography of the alleged ‘revelation’.

Unlike the irrational ‘sola scriptura’ stance of Protestantism, the Catholic Church has the ability to reflect a more enlightened stance, as history shows it does when the traditional views concerning, for example, slavery and usury being sinful, are demonstrably and overwhelmingly condemned by society - suddenly the Catholic Church wakes up and joins the modern age.

Until such time, the magisterium feels it necessary to force an alignment with those who similarly align with ‘traditional’ (i.e. intolerant) views, such as the Taliban and extreme right-wing organisations.

Beloved Catholics – listen to those whose views you claim to share. Is it the Taliban or is, for example, Desmond Tutu? Is the debate about ‘gay marriage’ a debate about a sacrament or about civil rights?

On the happy day that the Catholic Church wakes up and recognises (as it inevitably will) that people are simply born different and that gay people should not be denied the rights everyone else has (and that includes respect and not condemnation from any spiritual community) then the number of adherents to the Catholic Church in civilised societies may then cease to dwindle.

The Church has always condemned slavery as we know it as the ownership of humans is incompatible with their intrinsic dignity.

There is a difference between charging someone interest when they borrow money to pay for food and when they borrow money to expand their factory.

To say to a homosexual ‘‘It’s okay to be Gay but don’t practise it!’’ is like saying: ‘‘It’s okay to be Catholic but don’t practise it!’’ - Question: Why is so much of the Old Testament, particularly Leviticus ignored today. Example: Leviticus 15, 16-24

16 “‘When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. 18 When a man has sexual relations with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both of them must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

19 “‘When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

20 “‘Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Anyone who touches her bed will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 22 Anyone who touches anything she sits on will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, they will be unclean till evening.

24 “‘If a man has sexual relations with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.

Exodus 20

The Ten Commandments
1 And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Our churches and our homes are often littered with statues and images of heavenly images and forms. No one bats an eyelid when our children could be punished to ‘‘the third and fourth generation’’ because of our hatred of God. Not my words, but God’s! The foot of St Peter in Rome is worn down from worship and adoration. Our Lady is worshipped and adored way beyond the requirements of the Commandments and yet the church doesn’t appear to have a problem with this.

I find it strange and a total insult to God that our Church does not acknowledge many other commandments clearly described in her own books of the Bible. It would be more advantageous to hear from Catholic homosexuals, who, like me, have attempted to live their lives according to the wishes of others because they consider that we are ‘‘disordered’’. I could say many things about the inconsistency of the Church but blood is thicker than water and I have to say I come from a ‘‘damaged’’ family!:

All heaven declares the Glory of the Risen Lord!

The laws of the Old Testament laws have been abrogated, natural law remains (including the 10 commandments however the Sabbath was moved as it isn’t a precept of natural law).

worship≠veneration