Homosexuals and the Holy Eucharist

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Dear davidv,

I am not choosing to obey only one law. I am not disobeying any laws about marriage because gays can not marry in the church so I am in compliance with this law. It is because of the rule regarding chastity that I am not going to communion. Hellloooo!!!

David, I do not reject any teachings of the church nor am I making any of my own rules. Apparently, you are not reading what I am writing and choose rather to read “into” what I am saying. The only law I am breaking is that of chastity and that is because I believe the church got it wrong on this one. I firmly believe God will impart to the church the same belief I now have.

I listen to God’s messengers all the time and heed their advice. God has spoken to me through many instruments many times. I pray that you lose the sanctimonious stance you are taking and open your heart to God for acceptance and tolerance instead of judgement and superiority.
 
Ooops! Sorry! Forgot to include my response to Buffalo.

Dear Buffalo,

I love your message and embrace it. I know how much my Catholic brethren want me to go with them to heaven. I also am aware that the teachings of the Catholic church say I can not enter heaven with such a serious sin in my earthly life that I do not repent. There will come a time in my life that I will not be able to have sexual relations with anyone, man or woman. The feelings will still be in my heart, though. At this time, I know chastity will not be an issue because there is no other option. I do not believe God will accept me or love my anymore because I am chaste due to inability. I do not believe that confessing my earlier decision to have sex with my monogamaous partner will have any more merit than it would today because I will still have those feelings. Gay people (at least THIS gay person) do not have sudden changes in their feelings. They remain the same for life, just like heterosexual people’s feelings. I can no longer turn straight than you can turn gay. It is not a choice. God MADE me this way. And, I thank Him every day for that and for his eternal forgiveness for my sins. But, I don’t believe that sharing love, even between the same sex, is a sin. Of course, we can argue this to death but the end result is that I will not change and you will not change and, most importantly, God will not change. However, God may impart to the church that their stance on homosexuality is wrong. Who among us can tell what God’s agenda holds? But, dear Buffalo, I look forward to meeting you in heaven one day.
 
My dear David,

If you need help interpreting a symbol of love (married in our hearts), it means we are committed to each other as a heterosexual couple would be. We would not commit “adultery” by cheating on each other. Things like that…Does that explain it?

Believe that God will eventually change the church is not making my own rule. I am sorry you feel that it is. It is a feeling in my heart, not a law that I feel I can wave like a flag.

Sorry if I came off as angry. Please just let God judge me and be intolerant of my sins. I just ask that you accept and understand where I am coming from. Love to you.
 
Do homosexual acts have a purpose? Purposes that are ordained by God? What exactly are these homosexual acts and what purpose do they have?

We take pleasure in eating, God did that because we must eat, or die.

We take pleasure in drinking water, God did that because we must drink, or die.

We take pleasure in sleeping, if ‘not sleeping’ does not kill us, it certainly injures us, God made sleeping pleasurable because we needed it.

We find sex pleasurable because it is the manner in which He has chosen to create new life. God made it so, as new human life is his ultimate creation.

But what about homosexual acts? The pleasure is sought, but what is its purpose? In marriage, the purpose is to draw a man and a woman into a physical and emotional bond, that by its very nature, is ordered to the creation and protection of new life. What purpose would God have in calling individuals to take what was obviously created for one purpose (our sexual organs), and use them in manners for which they were not designed?

These questions may be disconcerting to some, but that does not mean they are not good questions that need answers.

Dan
 
FCEGM said:
You might recommend that your pastor establish a chapter of “Courage” in order to give those responding to this openness valuable support in living according to Christ’s wisdom through the Church.
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Excellent point. Extending an invitation would be a positive action, but a parish should not blindly be lead by good intentions. There has to be a period of preparation and information to avoid the entire thing from becoming a negative experience for all concerned. In regards to this issue, i see far to many well intentioned but naive people who fail due to lack of preparation. The creation of a Courage chapter would be a great way to proceed. God bless!!!
 
MisterT said:
I am compelled to respond to this because of the incredible amount of animosity and hatred I am reading in the responses to this thread. This is not the Catholic way, at least not MY Catholic church.

Dear Mister T,

I am very sorry if you feel that my comments contained animosity or hatred.

I am a single woman in my 30’s and living according to the teachings of the Church which I believe with all my heart. It is not easy, and some days I feel like throwing in the towel and living in sin. But, of course, my faith keeps me on the path of discipline and sacrifice, out of Love for Him.

These days, it actually breaks my heart to sing in choir with our openly gay music director. As I said in my earlier post, he considers himself Catholic, and receives the Eucharist every week. He believes he is justified and this contributes to a very unwholesome environment in the music ministry. For example, there are two cantors who are quite open about the fornication that they are committing and one is committing adultery…she and her boyfriend are planning to get married after his divorce is final. They “love” each other and believe they are not committing any sin. Both of these ladies receive the eucharist every week.

These are my friends whom I love, but have not found a way to speak positively about the teachings of the church to them without coming across as judgemental, so I remain silent. I am not Jesus, and cannot tell people to repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand!

I was hoping to find a way to express myself…and also to find suggestions about how to deal with the situation from other Catholics in this forum.

At the moment I am thinking of leaving the parish and only playing music when I am hired for feast days (I am a professional cellist). This would set a wholesome boundary and would still allow me to see my friends at church on occasion.

Thanks for your consideration!🙂
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Dear Dan Grelinger,

The act is an expression of love, whether it is homosexual or not. I agree with you that the result of this expression in heterosexual couples is new life. You ask what the result is with a homosexual couple, Love. Closeness. Two humans who can make each other feel like they are the most important person in the world. And, most importantly, to share God’s love. I thank God everyday for my partner.

Dear sacredcello.

You are a very special woman. Not everyone can get to the level of love that you have for God. I hope you find the solace you are searching for because these things you described will unfortunately be around us always. It is a test of faith to be confronted with such things and still remain true to God. These lost lambs are God’s children and I am sure he will guide them back to His path. I would be most happy if you looked at these people and smiled instead of feeling pain because you have the knowledge that God himself will lead them back.
 
MisterT said:
Ooops! Sorry! Forgot to include my response to Buffalo.

Dear Buffalo,

I love your message and embrace it. I know how much my Catholic brethren want me to go with them to heaven. I also am aware that the teachings of the Catholic church say I can not enter heaven with such a serious sin in my earthly life that I do not repent. There will come a time in my life that I will not be able to have sexual relations with anyone, man or woman. The feelings will still be in my heart, though. At this time, I know chastity will not be an issue because there is no other option. I do not believe God will accept me or love my anymore because I am chaste due to inability. I do not believe that confessing my earlier decision to have sex with my monogamaous partner will have any more merit than it would today because I will still have those feelings. Gay people (at least THIS gay person) do not have sudden changes in their feelings. They remain the same for life, just like heterosexual people’s feelings. I can no longer turn straight than you can turn gay. It is not a choice. God MADE me this way. And, I thank Him every day for that and for his eternal forgiveness for my sins. But, I don’t believe that sharing love, even between the same sex, is a sin. Of course, we can argue this to death but the end result is that I will not change and you will not change and, most importantly, God will not change. However, God may impart to the church that their stance on homosexuality is wrong. Who among us can tell what God’s agenda holds? But, dear Buffalo, I look forward to meeting you in heaven one day.
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Our Catholic faith teaches us that when we recognize a sin, we must do our best to avoid that sin. Going to confession without a serious intent to not commit that sin again is disingenuous. It is indeed a struggle.

Even though you may feel you were created this way by God does not hold up to current scientific scrutiny. If you were born with the predisposition we then have to investigate man’s part in this and the effects of original sin.

If I am born with a predisposition to steal, should I be asking for laws to be made on my behalf, or should I strive for self mastery?

Your point about God not changing is excellent. God is perfectly loving and perfectly just. You know what the church teaches and you have to make the choice, for or against Him.

You seem genuinely interested in finding the truth and I applaud that. God gives you the grace to have more self mastery. It is a gift you alone must open. Everything is possible with God.

I
 
MisterT said:
Dear Dan Grelinger,

The act is an expression of love, whether it is homosexual or not. I agree with you that the result of this expression in heterosexual couples is new life. You ask what the result is with a homosexual couple, Love. Closeness. Two humans who can make each other feel like they are the most important person in the world. And, most importantly, to share God’s love. I thank God everyday for my partner.
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Dear Mister T,
I appreciate your reply, thank you.
You say the homosexual act is an expression of love. This is not at all obvious to me. For me to understand you will need to support your statement. Here are my challenges to seeing it in the way that you propose:

Is perfect love between persons impossible without sexual activity? Christ demonstrated how to love others perfectly, and he used no sex to do it. He did use his body, but in a completely different way. He makes us “feel like we are the most important person in the world.” He did not use sexual activity to do it.

Is sexual activity required for you to show someone that they are loved?

You compare homosexual acts to marital acts. You speak of the two different acts as if they are the same act. Physically, a homosexual act is very different than a marital act. The homosexual act is necessarily accomplished differently and the physical results are obviously different, compared to the marital act. Moving beyond the physical attributes, I can see how sexual activity between spouses can demonstrate their real love for God. The results of their love for God are obvious. You are here, I am here, and probably 6 billion + souls for the glory of God exist as a testament of how valuable this love of God is to Him.

Are homosexual acts similarly a demonstration of love of God? When I examine the intentions of this activity, I do not see true love, as Christ loves. When I examine the fruits of this activity, the things that are physically apparent to us do not appear at all beautiful. The physical results of such activity could be reasonably construed as attempts to injure the other party, not love them.

Sincerely,

Dan
 
Chortle said:
I still have a concern, however, and it has to do with welcoming homosexuals into full participation within our parish without making it clear to them that homosexual acts are sinful. In particular, I don’t feel that it would be right for them to partake of holy communion while still engaged in a homosexual lifestyle, without any intention to change. (In fairness, I also feel this way about the straight men and women in our church who are cohabiting, yet who receive communion with no compunction at all about their behavior.)

Any insight you can offer would be appreciated…
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Your instincts here are completely correct. Your parish priest is lining up for excommunication, and your parish needs our prayers desperately. What is it’s name, and I will begin that very thing.

Yours in Christ,

Steven
 
MisterT said:
Dear sacredcello.

You are a very special woman. Not everyone can get to the level of love that you have for God. I hope you find the solace you are searching for because these things you described will unfortunately be around us always. It is a test of faith to be confronted with such things and still remain true to God. These lost lambs are God’s children and I am sure he will guide them back to His path. I would be most happy if you looked at these people and smiled instead of feeling pain because you have the knowledge that God himself will lead them back.
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Thanks, Mr. T. I appreciate your comments and that you are striving to live a life of faith and to understand what that means for your life.

You are right that such things will always be around us. The fact is, I do genuinely love my friends and I do smile at them. They know that I embrace all of the church’s teachings, and they feel that I am out of touch with reality. It hurts because I have no support and also because their reception of the Eucharist each week is a strong statement that the truth which the Church proclaims is relative, or even wrong.

By no means, do I think that I am going directly to heaven upon my death, or that I will not see gay people of faith there.

In fact, I recently performed music for a gay MARRIAGE, in the Episcopal Church…a couple who have been together for 30 years. The pastor there is also gay and will not do “blessings,” but will only agree to perform the ceremony if the couple wants the full liturgy of the sacrament of marriage. I really struggled with this one…about whether I should even participate, given that I don’t agree with what they were doing. But, I did it because it was a professional job (and probably most of the other weddings I play involve cohabitation before marriage). I met with the couple to plan music. They were very sweet, and obviously felt good about what they were doing.

The fact is that these folks, because of their faith in Jesus, will probably end up in purgatory like the rest of us. But, what a rude awakening, to find out that what one thought was a profound “love” on earth was actually harmful to the soul.

I pray, as St. Augustine, to be purified here on earth, rather than after death.
 
It would be a beautiful thing if a homosexual or a gay person could walk away from a confessional for the Last Time with a clear consious, Never to repeat this mortal sin again. They would be absolutely GLOWING with the Sanctifying Grace that God just gave. They would feel as walking just above the ground, and the devil could never touch them in this way again. As Catholics, we know this lifestyle and these acts are mortal sins and no way to get around it.
A mortal sin is an ugly dirty grimmy place in the soul.
How can anyone imagine Our Most Beautiful Jesus Christ arriving at Holy Mass and at the time of Holy Communion He will choose the souls to enter. Receiving Jesus Christ in the Eucharist is the Prize! Forgive me Dear Lord for saying it this way. But YOU are WHO us Catholics love and work hard for. I always pray to keep a white porcelain tabernacle within me.
As a Catholic, I try to live by the 10 Commandments and I read the Bible. This is how I feel about this subject. I am in no way judging anyone.
 
Hi, Dan.

I’m sure your beliefs are strong and well founded in your faith and in the Bible. I would never detract from those beliefs or try to mitigate their depth or sway you into my way of thinking.

I only ask that you be just as sure that my belief is as strong as yours, that my depth of conviction is as yours is, that you not try to convert me because you would be preaching to the choir.

I am a result of God’s love. I am a gay man. The result of God’s love is a gay man.

Since God’s love created all these people, gay and straight, and all of them have a natural desire (may I argue, a God given desire) to be with another human being sexually, it can not be wrong for me to love another man. I did not choose to be gay. God made me. Why he made me gay…no one knows. But I do know in my heart and in my mind and in my soul that it is not a sin. The Bible can be interpreted so many ways and many are in agreement on that point. But no one knows what I am feeling and knowing and am so sure of unless they are gay. A white person does not know how it is to live a life as another race (Indian, African, Chinese). They can be told about it and learn about it but they will never feel the same feelings or know the same things or experience the same experiences that a person of that race feels. That is why there is so much misunderstanding about gays because no one will accept that God created them that way and it is natural for them to be together…as natural as it is for heterosexuals to be together.

Again, I am not asking for anyone’s blessing or OK to be gay or absolution to receive communion. Only God can give these things. He already has in my mind. It is just a matter of time before He imparts this to the church.

God put me (and everyone) on this earth for a purpose. Maybe part of my purpose is to speak with you and reach your heart and turn it with God’s own last commandment “Love one another”.
 
blessedtoo said:
It’s really hard to argue with this point because the issue of abortion is urgent in that many helpless lives are lost each day. When you consider the fervor we currently see in the “withdrawl the troops” crowd today, I think it is perfectly understandable that when people become aware that lives are being lost, they take agressive and immediate action. There is no let-up with regard to Iraq. You can’t turn on the TV or radio without hearing about it. How much more urgent is the issue of abortion, where the number of babies killed each day still exceeds the total number of soldiers who have sacrificed their lives.

The issue of homosexuality is receiving so much attention here and in other Catholic media because of the current cultural and political emphasis on normalizing this behavior. If bills and laws were not being proposed every day in every state to up-end marriage laws, parental rights law, children’s rights law, etc., there would not be so much attention. The “preoccupation” with this issue is an agressive attempt to respond to the current onslaught of social and legal maneuvers by homosexual activists.
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One thing to remember that liberalism is corrupt and a very destructive heresy. And if someone says that EWTN was overemphasising abortion they really need to get out of Disney Land! :mad: Cause when someone is pro-abortion there are NO OTHER ISSUES! Homosexuality scandalizes people. We can’t give evil the appearance of good.
 
Flopfoot said:
Why isn’t it possible for someone to not know that homosexual acts are gravely wrong?
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I have a child who is gay, I believed he was confused when young. older homosexuals got him, he got addicted and his mind is off the edge. His actions as well. I pray for his soul all the time. I no longer feel it’s my fault. I leave the big stuff to God. I lost a daughter, went through a divorce and found out my only son was gay in one year. Drove me to a deeper relationship with God. Now, I sit back, hold my tongue, pray, pray, pray,. As far as bringing them into the church in this setting. Why not special things for all people that are different, We have many. I think it’s wrong to put homosexuals together. It invites more of the same. They meet and bingo. More relationships, or sleep overs. I do not believe they were born into this unless it’s like an addiction, such as alcohol, etc. Addiction yes. Homesexuality. NO. I’m sorry if I offended anyone, just my point of view as a mother. God Bless
 
Dear Mr. T,

Forgive me for my inquisitiveness, but I simply do not understand your desire to be Roman Catholic, if you reject the teachings of the Church (or presume that they will one day change). This is a rejection of the doctrine of papal infallibility (the pope, like all of us, is a sinner, but has been given the charism of teaching in the apostolic tradition, and thus, cannot give us false doctrine) You are presuming not only that the teaching on homosexuality will change, but also that the pope will no longer have the authority to teach the faithful, because in order for your desired change to come about, the authority of the Magisterium must be declared in error.

Wouldn’t it be preferable to worship in the Episcopal Church? It is almost identical in the liturgy, the creed, etc., AND they allow reception of the Eucharist for practicing homosexuals. What is it about the Catholic Church that is of value to you, since you are presently unable to receive the Eucharist there?

I’m just trying to understand, because I converted to the Catholic Church from the Episcopal. I find the strong moral center of the CC to be a compelling reason for me to stay.
MisterT said:
I am a result of God’s love. I am a gay man. The result of God’s love is a gay man.

Didn’t God lovingly create you as a man? Isn’t the overidentification with sexual orientation a creation of one’s own?
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sacredcello said:
Dear Mr. T,

Forgive me for my inquisitiveness, but I simply do not understand your desire to be Roman Catholic, if you reject the teachings of the Church (or presume that they will one day change). This is a rejection of the doctrine of papal infallibility (the pope, like all of us, is a sinner, but has been given the charism of teaching in the apostolic tradition, and thus, cannot give us false doctrine) You are presuming not only that the teaching on homosexuality will change, but also that the pope will no longer have the authority to teach the faithful, because in order for your desired change to come about, the authority of the Magisterium must be declared in error.

Wouldn’t it be preferable to worship in the Episcopal Church? It is almost identical in the liturgy, the creed, etc., AND they allow reception of the Eucharist for practicing homosexuals. What is it about the Catholic Church that is of value to you, since you are presently unable to receive the Eucharist there?

I’m just trying to understand, because I converted to the Catholic Church from the Episcopal. I find the strong moral center of the CC to be a compelling reason for me to stay.
MisterT;2227648:
I am a result of God’s love. I am a gay man. The result of God’s love is a gay man.

Didn’t God lovingly create you as a man? Isn’t the overidentification with sexual orientation a creation of one’s own?
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These are the very same questions I wonder about. The Catholic Church IS what it IS. It will not be changing anytime soon, except for the possibility of a more traditional liturgy coming back. Nothing in Dogma will change until and if directed so by the very Lamb of God.
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Lots of good thoughts on this confusing topic. It is extremely difficult for those who are not SSA (Same Sex Attracted) to fully understand the complexity of the problem. I understand that the church can never fully condone the behavior. It does present a problem both for the church in how to minister to these people, and to the Catholics who suffer from it.

I believe in most cases today, homosexuality does NOT meet the 3 criteria for mortal sin and I will explain my reasons.
[1] Is it Grave Matter? Well, I suppose it is. I’m not sure that its graver than murder, stealing or bearing false witness, and degree does supposedly matter. But let’s just say, that yes, it is grave matter.
[2] Full Knowledge? Homosexual tendencies begin when one is very young. Often as young as 7 or 8 years old. As the child grows older, the feelings become stronger. He/she does NOT understand what’s happening or why they have these feelings. They might know its wrong because of what they’ve been taught, but at that age, they can’t have a full understanding of its implications. And they don’t understand at that young age to what degree it will affect them later in life. The urges grow, and because they are children, they are not equipped to control or confront them. So, full knowlege and understanding really is debatable. And if its accepted that full knowledge implies Full Understanding then I would say no, in these cases, full knowledge isn’t present.
[3] COMPLETE CONSENT? Often, children who are growing up homosexual believe they will be all better and normal when they grow up. They don’t understand why their feelings are different from those around them. They deal with it privately and believe they wil be normal when they get older. As they grow up, they find themselves seeking affection (a normal human condition) they want to love and be loved. The problem for them is that they are not attracted to the opposite sex, so they seek out a parter of the same sex. (Often this done most reluctantly) By the time they are an adult the behavior patterns are established. The thought patterns are established. The emotional framework is in place. Complete consent is not given here (I don’t believe). If all this started in childhood, can a child consent? … To undo all of the above by the time one is an adult is a monumental task. Maybe impossible.
Finally, ccc 1860 says: “… The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders…”
For the above reasons. In many cases, it doesn’t have to be a mortal sin.
 
MisterT said:
Hi, Dan.

I am a result of God’s love. I am a gay man. The result of God’s love is a gay man.
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This is misguided. First off you may be homosexual. To be gay (according to the culture) is to act on it. That is not God’s plan for you.
 
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