Homosexuals and the Holy Eucharist

[Chortle]

My pastor is proposing to begin a ministry to lesbians and gays by making our parish a “welcoming church.” He has asked for feedback on this from me and the other members of the pastoral council. My gut feeling is positive in that I’d like to bring the good news of Christ to these people. I’ve read the USCCB statement “Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination” which I found to be very informative and helpful.

I still have a concern, however, and it has to do with welcoming homosexuals into full participation within our parish without making it clear to them that homosexual acts are sinful. In particular, I don’t feel that it would be right for them to partake of holy communion while still engaged in a homosexual lifestyle, without any intention to change. (In fairness, I also feel this way about the straight men and women in our church who are cohabiting, yet who receive communion with no compunction at all about their behavior.)

Any insight you can offer would be appreciated…

 

[Eireann]

Well as long as he informs them that anyone remaining in mortal sin cannot receive, everyone has to give up their sinful lifestyle whether they be homosexual or otherwise.

No it isn’t right for them to receive if they are practicing homosexuals, or living in adultery or shacking up, it’s blasphemy against the body and blood of Christ.

A word in the Priests ear to tell him your concerns, ( that is if they receive with his full knowledge ) and if that don’t do a word in the Bishops ear and probably higher.

 

[JLSacred]

I have a question about this: Does the gravity of homosexual acts meet the 3 crtieria for mortal sin always? Or are these viewed the same way as masturbation, in that the sinner is less culpable due to force of habit, immaturity, influences of stress, etc?

 

[PhilipCal]

Great thoughts, great questions. This is probably more in your Pastor’s department than it is in yours. Is there a potential for abuse, re: Holy Communion? Yes, I would think so. Is the ministry worth the risk? Again, I would think so. Every time Mass is said, and people approach the Altar to recieve Our Lord, there is a potential for abuse. What will probably need to happen as the ministry is set up, is a reminder to recieve the Eucharist only while in a state of grace. The ministry would seem to have the potential though, to serve the Church’s saving mission to souls. That’s just my two cents worth though. Serious prayer, invoking the help of the Holy Spirit would certainly seem to be in order.

 

[Eireann]

I have a question about this: Does the gravity of homosexual acts meet the 3 crtieria for mortal sin always? Or are these viewed the same way as masturbation, in that the sinner is less culpable due to force of habit, immaturity, influences of stress, etc?

It’s still a mortal sin, it has to be confessed before reception of Communion.

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.** Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity**,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. **Under no circumstances can they be approved. **

CCC 1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is** grave matter **and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

I don’t think they can say they don’t know the gravity of this sin, so my answer to your question is no.

 

[AndyF]

Chortle:

The Catholic Church does welcome those in a state of mortal sin in the spirit of helping those who are repentant and are striving to overcome their state and are working to rid themselves of this temporary affliction. NARC and Courage and the one you mention are self help groups it sponsors in this endeavor.

God knows the state of mind and sincerity of these people. Some are uncomfortable with their state and seek a fix as long as others can supply it for them. These, no matter how long they attend these groups will gain nothing from it. All these Church sponsored activities call for the attendee to be determined to change,repentant, and eager to obey what is required of them. As you implied it should be made clear that it only helps those who help themselves and the Church does not condone this behaviour.

In no way can it help those who through determined resignation have decided to stay in the state of mortal sin they are in, nor will it encourage these to help themselves to the fruits of the Church without merit. There is only one that is not locked to them and has it’s door ajar awaiting these individuals who have a penitent heart, and that is Penance. The fruits of the Church cannot assist those who have decided their last end will not be with the Father.

AndyF

 

[FCEGM]

My pastor is proposing to begin a ministry to lesbians and gays by making our parish a “welcoming church.” He has asked for feedback on this from me and the other members of the pastoral council. My gut feeling is positive in that I’d like to bring the good news of Christ to these people. I’ve read the USCCB statement “Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination” which I found to be very informative and helpful.

I still have a concern, however, and it has to do with welcoming homosexuals into full participation within our parish without making it clear to them that homosexual acts are sinful. In particular, I don’t feel that it would be right for them to partake of holy communion while still engaged in a homosexual lifestyle, without any intention to change. (In fairness, I also feel this way about the straight men and women in our church who are cohabiting, yet who receive communion with no compunction at all about their behavior.)

Any insight you can offer would be appreciated…

You might recommend that your pastor establish a chapter of “Courage” in order to give those responding to this openness valuable support in living according to Christ’s wisdom through the Church.

 

[1ke]

My pastor is proposing to begin a ministry to lesbians and gays by making our parish a “welcoming church.” He has asked for feedback on this from me and the other members of the pastoral council. My gut feeling is positive in that I’d like to bring the good news of Christ to these people. I’ve read the USCCB statement “Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination” which I found to be very informative and helpful.

I still have a concern, however, and it has to do with welcoming homosexuals into full participation within our parish without making it clear to them that homosexual acts are sinful. In particular, I don’t feel that it would be right for them to partake of holy communion while still engaged in a homosexual lifestyle, without any intention to change. (In fairness, I also feel this way about the straight men and women in our church who are cohabiting, yet who receive communion with no compunction at all about their behavior.)

Any insight you can offer would be appreciated…

You are absolutely on target. I would suggest getting in touch with Courage-- a Church approved ministry to homosexual persons. Anything that condones their behavior or fails to challenge them to chastity is false charity.

 

[Flopfoot]

I don’t think they can say they don’t know the gravity of this sin, so my answer to your question is no.

Why isn’t it possible for someone to not know that homosexual acts are gravely wrong?

 

[lois_lane]

I am working on a project right now in which we have interviewed over 100 Christians who are gay, about their experiences with the church (we only have a few catholics, which is why I put that in a lower case c). We are compiling these interviews, along with scriptures and sacred traditions of scripture into a play that will be performed in September.

The past few weeks in our meetings we’ve been watching interviews and reading transcripts. The stories are SAD. And tragic. And very, very difficult at times. Most of these people are hurting – they NEED ministry, and love, and support. They need to know that the C/church cares.

What they don’t need is a checklist of what’s wrong with their lives and how they are. I’ve started to realize that they don’t always know what’s wrong and they’re not just going against it out of spite for God. Quite the contrary – many of the people we’ve interviewed are some of the strongest Christians I’ve seen! Often, their faith is unshakable because, for whatever reason, God has set them on this course and they have to deal with it and come to terms with it in some way. Some of them are still struggling. Some of them have said, “forget it – I don’t want the church if they don’t want me.” Others are content being gay and being Christian, they have come to a reality of what this means, and they will struggle with sin and fear in the same way all of us do.

A few weeks ago, I had the privilege of interviewing a lesbian couple who have been together for years and who are both very strong catholics. They, in obedience to their pastor, do not receive the holy Eucharist. They confessed that this is not easy for them – they want to receive communion. But they also have to deal with this attraction to each other. They have to deal with the dichotomy – and it’s probably going to be a lifelong journey for them. They may never reach the correct answer to the problem.

I don’t think that it’s as easy as “well, give up your lifestyle.” There’s just too many factors involved to make things that simple. You don’t tell an alcoholic to “well, just quit drinking!”

If the Church doesn’t embrace and envelope and minister to this marginal group of our society, who will?? Society will, and that’s where we see the awful stereotypes come to fruition (e.g., "the gay 90’s) Let’s prevent that – and be the first to dialogue and love, as Christ instructed us to do.

 

[lois_lane]

Why isn’t it possible for someone to not know that homosexual acts are gravely wrong?

Because they live in ignorance, and often in denial.

Why is not possible for non-catholics to realize that pre-marital sex, birth control and abortions are gravely wrong? Because its not part of their worldview.

I think its often the same way with LGBT – its not a part of their worldview.

You can’t just tell someone, “what you’re doing is wrong,” if they have no basis on which to accept that judgement.

 

[Flopfoot]

Lois, I think you misunderstood my question.

 

[thistle]

Why isn’t it possible for someone to not know that homosexual acts are gravely wrong?

Homosexuallity, abortion and contraception are three of the most widely publicised evils. While it is possible someone might not know homosexuallity is a grave sin I would say it is highly unlikely.

 

[THurifer2]

My pastor is proposing to begin a ministry to lesbians and gays …

Is he going to propose a ministry for other people who have same sex attraction? or Is it going to be for those who live in a persistant state or mortal sin?

I sickens me that Gays get all the attention. What about others. Why do gays get the “special” ministries…they are not the only people who carry a cross!! there are pedophiles out there that need ministry too…what about cleptomaniacs? we are all sinners why does one group need to be singled out as special!?!

 

[ElizabethAnne]

While it is possible someone might not know homosexuallity is a grave sin I would say it is highly unlikely.

I know what you mean, but I really have to disagree. At least for my generation, I’m 25, not many people know that homosexuality is not something to be celebrated. Seriously, if you don’t welcome homosexuality and celebrate it all the time, you are weird and judgemental. Probably stupid too. Before I became Catholic I had no reason or inclination to find anything wrong with homosexuality. No one ever told me that it was wrong. All I ever heard was how oppressed homosexuals are, how that oppression drives them to suicide, how bigots beat homosexuals because of their hatred, etc.

 

[lois_lane]

I sickens me that Gays get all the attention. What about others. Why do gays get the “special” ministries…they are not the only people who carry a cross!! there are pedophiles out there that need ministry too…what about cleptomaniacs? we are all sinners why does one group need to be singled out as special!?!

Maybe because this particular pastor feels called to minister to the LGBT community. His ministry is not to kleptomaniacs. That’s someone else’s ministry, and its better that the person siuited to that ministry should take up that cause.

Homosexuallity, abortion and contraception are three of the most widely publicised evils

But someone who does not adhere to the Christian worldview won’t see it as evil! I think this is where the problem exists between Christianity and homosexuality. You can’t just slam a catechism in someone’s face who has no reason to believe that the catechism is true! THAT’s why they wouldn’t “know” that homosexual acts are a grave sin – because they don’t accept scripture and tradition and the pope as the ultimate authority. Until you can agree to submit to that authority, you don’t have to admit that anything you believe in is not true.

I guess I’m speaking of the LGBT community as a WHOLE, not just those in the Catholic sector.

We must find another way to go about this – I’m not saying I know what that answer is, but I’m willing to work to seek it out.

 

[Eireann]

Why isn’t it possible for someone to not know that homosexual acts are gravely wrong?

It’s possible, but this Priest should remind them that it is gravely wrong, then they’ll know.

I was answering it on the premise that those going to this Mass already know it’s wrong unless they want to behave like an ostrich.

And if any of them is reading this, " well yous know now. "

 

[Flopfoot]

And if any of them is reading this, " well yous know now. "

Sorry, I don’t mean to seem like I’m promoting the other side or constantly defending the sinners by questioning you here, but I think there is a point worth mentioning about full knowledge -

Being told that something is wrong by someone on the internet does not necessarily constitue full knowledge.
For example - say someone has had difficulties with scrupulosity in the past, and so now they are wary of anyone telling them that something is morally wrong. Say they’ve even been mislead by Catholics on CAF in the past who told them that chocolate and watching sports on TV was wrong (when it isn’t). Then someone on CAF says that masturbation is wrong. This person has got reason to not believe the CAF poster saying that, even though the poster is actually correct. So if he then masturbates, full knowledge is not met just because he saw someone on CAF say that it is wrong.

 

[buffalo]

My pastor is proposing to begin a ministry to lesbians and gays by making our parish a “welcoming church.” He has asked for feedback on this from me and the other members of the pastoral council. My gut feeling is positive in that I’d like to bring the good news of Christ to these people. I’ve read the USCCB statement “Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination” which I found to be very informative and helpful.

I still have a concern, however, and it has to do with welcoming homosexuals into full participation within our parish without making it clear to them that homosexual acts are sinful. In particular, I don’t feel that it would be right for them to partake of holy communion while still engaged in a homosexual lifestyle, without any intention to change. (In fairness, I also feel this way about the straight men and women in our church who are cohabiting, yet who receive communion with no compunction at all about their behavior.)

Any insight you can offer would be appreciated…

I would be concerned with the category of gays and lesbians as they carry the connotation of the lifestyle.

Ministering to all people is the essence of the Church’s mission.

I believe this should be an Apostolate that leads to Communion with the Church and not a political agenda.

Call a sin a sin.

 

[Eireann]

Sorry, I don’t mean to seem like I’m promoting the other side or constantly defending the sinners by questioning you here, but I think there is a point worth mentioning about full knowledge -

Being told that something is wrong by someone on the Internet does not necessarily constitute full knowledge.
For example - say someone has had difficulties with scrupulosity in the past, and so now they are wary of anyone telling them that something is morally wrong. Say they’ve even been mislead by Catholics on CAF in the past who told them that chocolate and watching sports on TV was wrong (when it isn’t). Then someone on CAF says that masturbation is wrong. This person has got reason to not believe the CAF poster saying that, even though the poster is actually correct. So if he then masturbates, full knowledge is not met just because he saw someone on CAF say that it is wrong.

Well they should educate themselves, the CCC has been out a long time, and you’d be amazed at the number of Catholics that don’t have it in their homes and have never read it. (yes even in holy Ireland):ehh:

If some are ignorant, get unignorant, hey did I just invent a new word.

Anyway I don’t remember reading about chocolate and TV in the CCC, but masturbation yes , for many there is no excuse now to be in ignorance, there are plenty of resources.

I think people need to keep an eye on scrupulosity too, it can be as simple as " Oh my, did I say eleven Hail Marys, or nine, did I miss out the Our Father or did I say it twice. "

That kind of scrupulosity isn’t helpful and may well be from the evil one.

CCC 2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

In the end they can get advice from a Priest in obedience with the Magestirium.