Homosexuals and the Holy Eucharist

[Journeyer11]

Then as a fellow Catholic you likewise DITTO goffyjim’s commitment to chastity?
Reply With Quote

Not that its any of your business… I mean do I ask you if you and your wife use birth control?? ( Assuming your married…) See my point? But since its important for you to know. I have been chaste the past 2 years, as I’ve been rediscovering my faith. But it has led me to many questions and franky, I"m not sure I can spend the rest of my life alone.

 

[blessedtoo]

Hopefully, my friend, you now see the ignorance behind that statement. I lived through it, and children are developmentally capable of albeit beginning stages of this.

I too experienced exactly what you describe as a youngin’. My primary attraction at ages 6, 7, and 8 was to other little girls. It was not sexual, just like you said, although all sorts of childish experimentation took place. As I reached puberty and began to understand the disordered nature of this attraction, I did not give in to these feelings (this was long before the word “gay” became as hip as it did and is now). I prayed alot and fortunately the “pull” of this attraction diminished. It did return again in my hedonistic 20’s and I threw myself into it happily. But by this point I had also developed an attraction toward the opposite sex as well. Acting on the SSA at this point was a conscious decision, one made because I had no reason to refrain. God was not a part of my life at that time.

But there is no marriage for these people is there? What are their options? To live a celibate life… In essense, they are sentenced to be alone. Do you think you could live your life alone and celibate, Setter? Are you married??

I am not setter, but I’ll answer this because folks with SSA seem to think they are the only one’s who must live a chaste lifestyle. I have been separated from my husband for the last 24 years. I am not divorced, I love God, and I follow His commandments. So, you do the math. My life is not miserable, I am not pining every minute of the day, I am not angry and resentful, and I am definately not lonely.

 

[sacredcello]

Dear sacredcello, I may ask the same thing of you that you asked of me. Why choose the Catholic church if there are people like me in it? Why choose a church because it suits your need for a strong moral center? Islamic religions have much stricter laws than Catholics, forbidding MUCH more. Why not join them?
QUOTE]

Dear Mister T,

Forgive me if I have been too forward in my questions.

You have good questions. Our Islamic brothers and sisters believe in the same God as us and have Abraham as their patriarch, just like the Jews. However, as you know, they do not accept our Lord Jesus as their Messiah.

For me it is not about rules, but finding the narrow way that Jesus told us about, which is all about love.

About choice… you are right, I did not choose to be heterosexual, it is my nature. I also did not choose to be single in the prime of my life and for so many years, but this is part of God’s will for my life and I have accepted it. I have had choices put in front of me for an unchaste life, and it has been very difficult to reject, but I have done so out of love. This doesn’t make me better… in fact, I often wonder about the nature of love. Is it only what we make of it (couldn’t I just once sleep with that very handsome fellow who knows me so well, but whom I know will never accept my faith or become my husband…)?

Or is love something less subjective? Does Benedict XVI know what he is talking about in his encyclical, God is Love? It is beautiful writing, but what if I am being terribly and foolishly misled by him? Like you, I ask questions. But, I have come to the conclusion that love is not so difficult or complex. It is what Jesus told us it is and that does not include using our bodies in ways they were not intended.

As to the authority of the Church, if the teachings of the CC were to be declared in error on this topic, than so would the very doctrine of papal infallibility. Relativism would then become our religion. It has already become so in the culture in which we live.

 

[Journeyer11]

Blessed too,

Thanks for sharing… Okay, you are living a chaste life and it isn’t awful… Do you have any children?

p.s. If you developed an attraction for the opposite sex and then chose homosexulaity, I’d agree, that was a free choice. Just remember that change doesn’t happen to everyone.

 

[goofyjim]

Then as a fellow Catholic you likewise DITTO goffyjim’s commitment to chastity?
Reply With Quote

Not that its any of your business… I mean do I ask you if you and your wife use birth control?? ( Assuming your married…) See my point? But since its important for you to know. I have been chaste the past 2 years, as I’ve been rediscovering my faith. But it has led me to many questions and franky, I"m not sure I can spend the rest of my life alone.

Journeyer,

Despite my ssa I refuse to ever have a relation with a man. Yet I am not alone because I have and continue to live with roommates. As for those who think I’m living in sin I disregard them. I do it to cut down on living expenses. Living with the opposite sex would be living in sin.

 

[setter]

Setter,

Now that I have some time, I will answer your very detailed forum post.

—Are you homosexual? If not, then of course its not confusing to you.

We all have our afflictions. Yes, there are more societal forces that complicate a SSA afflicted individual’s clarity of thought and faithfulness to living a chaste life. In many ways, the same can be said of single folks too.

As far as the church being compassionate, I believe they think they are, and are trying to be, but its like putting a band-aide on a compound fracture. People with these tendencies are called to celibacy as if they were priests. But our blessed priests feel a call to service, and freely choose that life.

We are all called to a life of service to others. Our individual vocations and calling outline and define who and where we are specifically called to serve – whether single, religious, married, mentally or physically handicapped, widowed, …

Imagine if someone told you, you had to spend the rest of your life alone, otherwise you’d be a sinner. How do you think you’d feel?

We do not necessarily get to choose our crosses. God only gives and allows crosses for our sanctification and growth in holiness. The variable is how we respond to the crosses given us – embraced they can transform and refine our love. All the faithful are called to chastity whatever state of life they are in – widowed, religious, married, single.

You think homosexuality doesn’t present a problem for the church? Do you have any idea how many gay people have stayed away from the church because they feel their lifestyle is impossible to change, and they can’t reconcile the lifestyle with what the church teaches? Many have joined other churches, or else have given up their religion and call themselves privately “spiritual…” This isn’t a problem to you?

Granted there can be a more explicit and tailored Church out reach to those believers suffering from SSA. However, to observe that SSA afflicted individuals “can’t reconcile the lifestyle with what the church teaches” is a matter of personal choice and openness to receiving the grace for conversion.

No, Sorry, I can’t be more clear. Unlike you, I don’t assume I’m an expert. I was just trying to be fair and just, and communicate the shades of gray that this subject can contain.

I never claimed to be an expert, just an interested Catholic.

Did you get this from Reader’s Digest?. The framework of that “psychosexual identity” you so authoritatively speak of can start at a very young age. …But, the way you feel and relate to the 2 genders begins to take shape by then.

I posted in response to the over simplistic and assumption laden presentation of another poster that left the impression that SSA onsets and is a foregone conclusion before an individual begins puberty – this has all the tracings of the “gay agenda”.

Question for you to think about. (I assume you are not gay…) Put the religious aspect aside for a moment. Could you ever see yourself being intimate with and marrying a man instead of a woman?? Probably not…And why not? You have free will…Coulnd’t you try it?? No, you couldn’t because that’s not part of your make up…Not part of your nature…Nature is a powerful force. If its not in your nature to do something, (or let’s say if that nature is disordered…) You can’t simply use free will to make those choices.

This contradicts the ordered and true nature of man made in the image and likeness of God:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

 

[setter]

Setter, (con’t)

Hopefully, my friend, you now see the ignorance behind that statement. I lived through it, and children are developmentally capable of albeit beginning stages of this.

Are you suggesting that children have the same where about as adults to capably and integrally have homosexual feelings in a similar meaning as adults?

Yes Setter…That is what I am saying, that’s possible (Not a Given) …, here’s why… We all have feelings and passions. Sometimes they overtake us, we must all learn to control them. They make us do things we sometimes wish we didn’t do. The natural course for the OSA person is to fall in love, and get married, and build their families. If an OSA person chooses to have pre-marital sex, they have made a choice through their free will to do so. The Free Will component of mortal sin is present.

SSA people have the same passions, the same need for companionship and love and intimacy. A need to share their life with a partner and feel loved. But there is no marriage for these people is there? What are their options? To live a celibate life… In essense, they are sentenced to be alone. Do you think you could live your life alone and celibate, Setter? Are you married??

Again, we are all called to live a life of chastity – there is no exception and discriminatory clause amongst the faithful. Have you ever consider that God has the extra dose of grace just waiting to be activated as the SSA afflicted individual willfully chooses to take up his/her cross, deny one’s self, and follow Jesus? I believe that you are guilty of seeing the chaste life that a SSA afflicted individual is called to through only human and secular eyes.

“And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Mark 8: 34

“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” 1 Corinthians 10: 13

“He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.” 1 Peter 2: 24

“And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” **2 Corinthians 12: 7-8 **

But by the same token, if the homosexual person, chooses a life of casual sex, one night stands, then this behavior, I believe has the same culpability as the OSA person who chooses pre-marital sex. That is the same thing. But for the SSA person choosing love and commitment, the sin might very well be lessened. That is all I’m saying.

What about after they have been spoken the truth in love?

 

[buffalo]

Not love without truth
Not truth without love

But, truth with love! That is true Christian charity.

One should also be receptive to the truth with love.

 

[sacredcello]

Blessed too,

Thanks for sharing… Okay, you are living a chaste life and it isn’t awful… Do you have any children?

p.s. If you developed an attraction for the opposite sex and then chose homosexulaity, I’d agree, that was a free choice. Just remember that change doesn’t happen to everyone.

Thank YOU for sharing, Journeyer11.

A chaste life isn’t awful. There are so many blessings in this life for which I am truly grateful.

Because I have embraced the teachings of the church, not just in theory, but in practice, I have eliminated potential future spouses who are not open to the practice of chastity (both before marriage and after). We see in our culture that sex is used to grab another person emotionally, but this is not love.

I wonder about any existing “love” relationship between two SSA partners, or two OSA partners living together outside the bond of marriage…if one partner were to present a desire to live chastely together out of love for God, would this be accepted by the other? Or even better: if, instead of using sex to hook the other person at the beginning of the relationship and a chaste life was suggested, would the “love” between them even still exist at all? My best guess is that their “love” would not withstand this test.

 

[blessedtoo]

Blessed too,

Thanks for sharing… Okay, you are living a chaste life and it isn’t awful… Do you have any children?

One son who is 30.

p.s. If you developed an attraction for the opposite sex and then chose homosexulaity, I’d agree, that was a free choice. Just remember that change doesn’t happen to everyone.

All of the homosexual friends that I have (and they are many!) have experienced attractions to the other sex. My sister was married, divorced, and fornicated for years with men before “discovering” she was a lesbian. Another dear friend was engaged to a man who she loved before she decided she “preferred” women. All of the male friends I have had intense relationships with girls and women in High School and college, while also engaging in “bi-sexual” behaviors. They too decided they preferred their own sex. So what would you call this? Is this not choice?

Long before the homosexual lobby developed the theory that they were born gay, the battle cry used to be that everyone had “a little gay” in them that they were supressing. I have even heard Rosie O’Donnel make statements like this on her sad, little TV show. If we all have the potential to be, at the very least, attracted to both same and opposite sexes, wouldn’t choice factor in quite a bit?

 

[goofyjim]

One son who is 30.

All of the homosexual friends that I have (and they are many!) have experienced attractions to the other sex. My sister was married, divorced, and fornicated for years with men before “discovering” she was a lesbian. Another dear friend was engaged to a man who she loved before she decided she “preferred” women. All of the male friends I have had intense relationships with girls and women in High School and college, while also engaging in “bi-sexual” behaviors. They too decided they preferred their own sex. So what would you call this? Is this not choice?

Long before the homosexual lobby developed the theory that they were born gay, the battle cry used to be that everyone had “a little gay” in them that they were supressing. I have even heard Rosie O’Donnel make statements like this on her sad, little TV show. If we all have the potential to be, at the very least, attracted to both same and opposite sexes, wouldn’t choice factor in quite a bit?

While I don’t agree with the homosexual lobby that we are born into a behavior, I have already stated that it is my opinion some of us are born with same sex attraction. If we are going to spend our time identifying those with such it should be to support them in chastity not to make them change to opposite sex attraction.

 

[setter]

While I don’t agree with the homosexual lobby that we are born into a behavior, I have already stated that it is my opinion some of us are born with same sex attraction.

Perhaps predisposed due to prenatal factors, ex., chromosomal anomalies, hormonal variance, but there is no scientific evidence of a “gay” gene in itself that genetically predisposes one for SSA – link.

If we are going to spend our time identifying those with such it should be to support them in chastity not to make them change to opposite sex attraction.

This is what the Church has taught.

 

[goofyjim]

Perhaps predisposed due to prenatal factors, ex., chromosomal anomalies, hormonal variance, but there is no scientific evidence of a “gay” gene in itself that genetically predisposes one for SSA – link.

This is what the Church has taught.

Then we are agreed. As long as they are not acting on it they should be left alone to live their lives to the fullest. But there are still those who have an obsession with making this out to be the worst sin around. I grow very uneasy with those who start placing everybody in degrees of sin. For instance, I find adultery and fornication equally grievous offenses against chastity and do not consider that their fate will be any better than homosexuals. If we have to keep sending the message of chastity to the homosexuals before receiving the Eucharist then we should come down just as hard on the young couples living together before marriage. This is my take on equal treatment-equal reprimanding.

 

[sacredcello]

Then we are agreed. As long as they are not acting on it they should be left alone to live their lives to the fullest. But there are still those who have an obsession with making this out to be the worst sin around. I grow very uneasy with those who start placing everybody in degrees of sin. For instance, I find adultery and fornication equally grievous offenses against chastity and do not consider that their fate will be any better than homosexuals. If we have to keep sending the message of chastity to the homosexuals before receiving the Eucharist then we should come down just as hard on the young couples living together before marriage. This is my take on equal treatment-equal reprimanding.

Beautiful!

My point exactly! But, how does one make this statement about the sins against chastity, especially to one’s friends, without coming across as judgemental?

I suppose one’s own shining example is enough. But, in my experience, those who are committing these sins simply think that people living a chaste life are missing out on “love” and happiness. They have bought into the lie of our culture. While they are busy being “loved” and “connecting” through illicit sex, we are missing out on their wholesome friendship.

 

[blessedtoo]

Then we are agreed. As long as they are not acting on it they should be left alone to live their lives to the fullest. But there are still those who have an obsession with making this out to be the worst sin around. I grow very uneasy with those who start placing everybody in degrees of sin. For instance, I find adultery and fornication equally grievous offenses against chastity and do not consider that their fate will be any better than homosexuals. If we have to keep sending the message of chastity to the homosexuals before receiving the Eucharist then we should come down just as hard on the young couples living together before marriage. This is my take on equal treatment-equal reprimanding.

goofyjim, you know where I stand on the issue of “reparative” therapy. That was not my point at all. I have expressed my complete support for you and all who are walking the walk in accordance with Church teaching. I am not of the mind that one with SSA must (or can)change their orientation.
My point was to address the issues raised that SSA is fixed at pre-pubescence and that someone with this attraction has no choice but to either act on that attraction or be doomed to a life of loneliness. I also think it’s important for all of us to realize that there is no rule of thumb regarding the individual experience of SSA. You have stated you were “born” this way. Others have as well. Many of my friends have experienced attractions to both sexes throughout their lives. In presenting this example, I was merely trying to illustrate the role that choice played for these folks.

 

[governorperez]

dear friends,

it is our pastoral duty to welcome gays into the fold. in welcoming them as brothers and sisters we strengthen them with the knowledge that homosexual acts are sin and confessing sin with repentance and reformation restores their sacred romance with God.

God be with you.

governorperez

 

[Journeyer11]

Setter,

I posed a thoughtful question to you (to illustrate a point) and asked you to put yourself in the situation to see how you’d feel (putting the religious aspect aside) and you couldn’t even do that. Why did I ask you to put the religious aspect aside? Because I know the church answer on this… I don’t need you to demonstrate your knowledge of it… I’m all too familiar with church teaching on the subject. But you couldn’t even do it… Instead, you can only quote the Catechism. I refer to below:

<<<Question for you to think about. (I assume you are not gay…) Put the religious aspect aside for a moment. Could you ever see yourself being intimate with and marrying a man instead of a woman?? Probably not…And why not? You have free will…Coulnd’t you try it?? No, you couldn’t because that’s not part of your make up…Not part of your nature…Nature is a powerful force. If its not in your nature to do something, (or let’s say if that nature is disordered…) You can’t simply use free will to make those choices.>>>

If you were really interested in thinking about what I said above and engaging in a dialogue, your answer would have either been “Yes, I if I wanted to, I could explore a relatioinship with another man” or “No, I could never do that.” What’s so hard about giving a direct answer to a question? Must all your answers quote the Catechism and Church teaching? Which again, I already know.

You didn’t even give an answer on whether or not you suffer from SSA. The reason an answer here is important is because you ARE very knowledgeable of church teaching, and it would give a perspective as to where you are coming from? Single people, married people, divorced people, SSA people all come from a different perspective.

<<<Are you suggesting that children have the same where about as adults to capably and integrally have homosexual feelings in a similar meaning as adults?>>>

Try re-reading what I wrote about this. I was very explicit about the differences and if you think this is what I meant, you’re either twisting my words, or you misunderstood. Try reading it again.

<<< I posted in response to the over simplistic and assumption laden presentation of another poster that left the impression that SSA onsets and is a foregone conclusion before an individual begins puberty – this has all the tracings of the “gay agenda”.>>>>

I believe I WAS the poster you wrote the above to. And I’ve explained, from a PERSONAL perspective how it can be traced back to as young as 3rd grade. Since I have personally lived it, and you have just “read” about it. Who do you think might know more on the subject?

You have a great committment to the Catholic faith, and a great knowledge of scripture and teachings, etc. But you must listen to people, and respond as a person not a textbook. That’s what dialogue is about.

 

[Journeyer11]

Hi Blessedtoo,

I found your post very interesting. Thanks for answering my questions. First let me say, you said awhile back that you are living chastly and its not so bad. Keep in mind one point I’m trying to make is that at least you’ve been married and you have a child. So, you have a family. A gay person will never have that. There is a big lonliness there. You are a mother, someday you’ll be a grandmother. There is possibly a much more complete life there.

Regarding your gay friends and their choices. At first read, I said to myself yes if they’re attracted to both sexes then it is a choice and they should, of course, choose to live as God wants them to live. But upon reading it again, I noticed in all your expamples, your friends started out with the opposite sex and ended up with their own sex. Couldn’t this be because they were repressing these urges?? You wrote it as they “decided” or they “discovered” they were gay. Blessedtoo, I assure you they didn’t. They knew… They knew from a young age, and if you asked them to be honest about it, I bet that’s what they’d tell you. My guess is that your friends were trying to live the right way (OSA) but in the end couldn’t. It went against their nature.

This is the danger of telling SSA people to try to live OSA…to try and live straight. Many do, and eventually hurt others they were married to… Don’t ya think?

 

[blessedtoo]

I believe I WAS the poster you wrote the above to. And I’ve explained, from a PERSONAL perspective how it can be traced back to as young as 3rd grade. Since I have personally lived it, and you have just “read” about it. Who do you think might know more on the subject?

Journeyer11,
I understand what you are trying to convey by referring to personal experience and suggesting that other’s try to put themselves in your place. I think we all do that, to the extent that we can, by applying our own personal experiences which may be similar. While there are some who may never personally experience SSA on any level, one can understand the difficulties associated with this cross by reflecting on their own disordered tendencies or desires. While it’s not a perfect comparison, I don’t believe that is necessary to experience exactly the same situations for one to feel empathy.

In addition, I don’t accept your premise that just because you lived through the experience of pre-pubescent SSA that makes you the final authority. When we are that young, it is nealy impossible to fully comprehend what exactly is happening with our psychological and psychosexual development. We may form opinions and ideas in early childhood that are completely disassociated from the reality of the situation. For example, a child who is abused may feel that they are to blame. Children of divorce think they were the cause of their parent’s unhappiness. Kids who grow up in alcoholic homes often believe if they love their parents enough they will quit drinking. It often takes an outside source to help us understand why and how we formed concepts early in life and whether they are an accurate understanding of our experiences. Psychiatrists who treat folks with mental disorders do not have to experience them to understand them and offer help. Doctors who have never had cancer can understand, feel empathy for, and treat those who do.

 

[goofyjim]

Setter,

I posed a thoughtful question to you (to illustrate a point) and asked you to put yourself in the situation to see how you’d feel (putting the religious aspect aside) and you couldn’t even do that. Why did I ask you to put the religious aspect aside? Because I know the church answer on this… I don’t need you to demonstrate your knowledge of it… I’m all too familiar with church teaching on the subject. But you couldn’t even do it… Instead, you can only quote the Catechism. I refer to below:

<<<Question for you to think about. (I assume you are not gay…) Put the religious aspect aside for a moment. Could you ever see yourself being intimate with and marrying a man instead of a woman?? Probably not…And why not? You have free will…Coulnd’t you try it?? No, you couldn’t because that’s not part of your make up…Not part of your nature…Nature is a powerful force. If its not in your nature to do something, (or let’s say if that nature is disordered…) You can’t simply use free will to make those choices.>>>

If you were really interested in thinking about what I said above and engaging in a dialogue, your answer would have either been “Yes, I if I wanted to, I could explore a relatioinship with another man” or “No, I could never do that.” What’s so hard about giving a direct answer to a question? Must all your answers quote the Catechism and Church teaching? Which again, I already know.

You didn’t even give an answer on whether or not you suffer from SSA. The reason an answer here is important is because you ARE very knowledgeable of church teaching, and it would give a perspective as to where you are coming from? Single people, married people, divorced people, SSA people all come from a different perspective.

<<<Are you suggesting that children have the same where about as adults to capably and integrally have homosexual feelings in a similar meaning as adults?>>>

Try re-reading what I wrote about this. I was very explicit about the differences and if you think this is what I meant, you’re either twisting my words, or you misunderstood. Try reading it again.

<<< I posted in response to the over simplistic and assumption laden presentation of another poster that left the impression that SSA onsets and is a foregone conclusion before an individual begins puberty – this has all the tracings of the “gay agenda”.>>>>

I believe I WAS the poster you wrote the above to. And I’ve explained, from a PERSONAL perspective how it can be traced back to as young as 3rd grade. Since I have personally lived it, and you have just “read” about it. Who do you think might know more on the subject?

You have a great committment to the Catholic faith, and a great knowledge of scripture and teachings, etc. But you must listen to people, and respond as a person not a textbook. That’s what dialogue is about.

I think I have responded as a person. While I am ssa I would not consider a relation with a man because outside of Church teaching there are many health risks involved. I won’t mention anything specifically but these health risks make it an unnatural behavior, and I am not even talking about the big one. STDs are the main reason I abstain. I value my life more than a simple relationship. To say I am lonely is just off the mark.